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Like Water - The Brewmaster Discussion Thread


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#521 Runeheal

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:19 AM

You'd be better off gemming crit, but going for every agility socket bonus. Windwalkers like crit too, so it shouldn't be that bad.

 

If you can, however, get Rentaki's Soul Charm. It's a really good trinket that provides a boatload of expertise, so when you swap to windwalker, you can swap it out and not have a ton of wasted expertise on your windwalker gear from when you were playing brewmaster.



#522 Chipani

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:17 PM

okay that wouldn't change very much for me and luckily I already use that trinket :D

thx for the fast reply



#523 Dkgonas

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 06:17 PM

Hey guys, i play breawmaster monk, and i have a  question , what is more viable crit or mastery? btw i raid 25 man

 

ps. sorry about my english



#524 Veritae

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 11:15 PM

I think for 25 you should balance your crit and mastery. If you are taking too much damage take more mastery. And don't forgot for some haste (how much depends on you im playing with about 10k haste but im tanking 10m if i'm doing 25m raids i would have about 5k haste).So its up to you :) 



#525 Runeheal

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 01:14 PM

 

 

 what is more viable crit or mastery? btw i raid 25 man

 

Much of this has been covered already, but to summarize:

 

 

 

Tanks don't die to damage, they die to spikes. Crit is more beneficial on 10m, where bosses hit for less and tank dps has a larger contribution.

 

On 25, the damage you take is better mitigated through high haste and mastery; haste for increased energy to generate chi and purify, and mastery to mitigate even more damage.

 

Crit is still a useful stat, and is fine to use once you've attained a comfortable level of haste, but is still not as consistent, and thus effective in 25m.

 

However, the general rule is:

 

Expertise (15%) and Hit (7.5%), then you can choose.

 

Taking too much spike damage? Stack more mastery.

 

Taking high sustained incoming damage? Stack more haste.

 

Fine with damage intake but want to reduce it further? Stack crit up until the white hit crit cap.

 

Want to do max damage? Stack pure crit and cheese vengeance.


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#526 Pisshands

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 01:50 AM

Crit is substantially more powerful than Haste for physical damage reduction. No one in Siege gear levels (or even ToT gear levels) should actively stack Haste as their preferred secondary stat.

 

The gearing paradigms are:

Crit > Haste > Mastery - for maximum damage reduction, damage output and self-healing,

Mastery > Crit > Haste - for maximum spike protection,

Crit > Mastery > Haste - to balance damage reduction and spike protection.

 

While Mastery does feature increasing returns, its usefulness inherently diminishes past a certain value. Imagine, assuming current damage values are the same, that you had 3 Million total health. Another 100,000 would not have any real value for keeping you alive through spikes. This is more or less how Mastery functions, and while it varies by situation, the reasonable upper bound for Mastery's usefulness is somewhere between 10-12k unbuffed. Any more than that is almost certainly wasted, as 15k Mastery (12k + 3k buff) is worth, with passives, 59.6% Stagger conversion. That is a *massive* amount of spike protection, and a substantial amount of damage reduction/output/self-healing being spent instead on spike control.



#527 promdates

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 05:54 PM

15k Mastery (12k + 3k buff) is worth, with passives, 59.6% Stagger conversion.

 

15k is actually 20.625% stagger. Just a little nitpick :P


Edited by promdates, 12 December 2013 - 07:33 PM.

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#528 Nevernite

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:34 PM


15k Mastery (12k + 3k buff) is worth, with passives, 59.6% Stagger conversion.


don't mind the massive amounts of typos and grammar mistakes followed by edits


#529 promdates

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:33 PM

 


15k Mastery (12k + 3k buff) is worth, with passives, 59.6% Stagger conversion.

 

 

Which passives, there aren't any that affect mastery unless you're taking Thok's Tail Tip into account, which I'm not.

 

Base: 5%

12k rating: 12.50%

Raid buff: 3.125%

Default stagger: 20%

BoK stagger: 20%

 

5+12.5+3.125+20+20=60.625% stagger.  Which means, 15k mastery is worth 20.625% mastery towards stagger. Either way, he was only off by 1%.


Edited by promdates, 12 December 2013 - 07:38 PM.

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#530 Pisshands

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:02 AM

I forgot that the passive was changed from 4% to 5% way back in 5.2 when the scaling was improved by 25%. Obvious oversight.

 

The point is that Mastery is an effective health stat that scales far better and efficiently than Stamina with the standard limitations of Stamina and a special one of its own - it only works on Physical damage (until WoD). Stamina has always been valuable when you are undergeared because it provides a larger safety net for healers to keep you alive through spikes. Stamina is an inferior damage reduction stat in the same way that air does not cushion a fall - it does literally nothing to reduce damage. Mastery reduces the damage from the initial hit, but doesn't remove the damage unless it is purified away. While the uninitiated player's response might be "I'll purify more if I gear for mastery," that really isn't the case. Yes, gearing for Mastery in situations that aren't pulverizing may result in more PB's than if you were simply geared for Crit, but optimizing spike control in non-threatening scenarios is a pointless exercise. As I've said before, the chasm of disparity between "optimal/ideal" and "it's not right but it still works" has gotten much closer in MoP, and I don't think that's a bad thing at all. I suspect it will grow far closer in WoD.

 

As such, the situations in which a player will need and notice the difference in gearing pure Mastery are encounters such as solo tanking Thok - spots in which you purify frequently and would regardless of whether you have geared for Mastery or Crit. That is a situation in which Mastery can function similarly to pure damage reduction, because the Monk is simply not taking a significant amount of the Staggered damage. In other situations, where the player is not pressed to purify with the same frequency, Mastery really functions more like Stamina, ensuring the player can't get swatted down in two to three hits, but not actually reducing total damage taken. The perk for healers with Monk Mastery is that Stagger plays extremely well with HoTs and doesn't increase the tank's health pool. This means that healing a Monk with 800k health and 3M effective health from 10% to 100% takes as much mana as a Monk with 800k health and 4M effective health, despite the fact that the second Monk is able to eat 33% more damage than the first Monk without dying.

 

It's really not that significant, but here is what's important: More Stamina is always useful, but tanks inevitably reach a quality of gear relative to the content they are raiding such that gearing for Stamina is no longer as useful to their continued survival as gearing for better damage reduction stats (i.e., stats that actually reduce damage taken). Mastery behaves similarly, and this is why Mastery is allowed to scale with increasing returns while Armor Penetration was removed for them. The returns from Mastery stop being worth the investment long, long before you reach the hard cap.


Edited by Pisshands, 13 December 2013 - 10:13 AM.


#531 Zikura

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:35 PM

Hello, I am usually a Windwalker, but due to technical difficulties, our usual tank on Blackfuse was unable to join us, so I was given the task of killing the first add on the Blackfuse encounter. The usual tank to do it is a warrior, and if he is lucky, he can kill the first add before the fourth overload. In all my attempts yesterday, I never managed this feat, I some times let the add get off a fifth overload, even.

 

I am therefore looking for tips to how you kill the first add on Siegecrafter, and how many overloads he is able to push out before he dies. We have the initial tank pick up Blackfuse and tank him until the add shows up. After the add shows up, the tank waits for one final stack of the debuff (netting him a total of four) before he moves out with the add. This would be just before the Death from Above. My warrior friend then bursts the add down in seemingly no time, and picks up the boss after letting the offtank only pick up one stack of the debuff. By the time the second add show sup, he has accumulated six stacks, and has no problems killing the add next to the boss.

 

When I was tasked with starting to tank the add, I kited him out after I got the fourth stack (we also tried the offtank kiting him out first, and us just swapping targets). I had him out of boss-range for when Death from Above hit. I then popped an agility potion, cast a Chi Wave, rolled back in and started hitting him with keg smash / blackout kick. I did not manage to DPS him meaningfully before Death from Above. I tried using Xuen and the DPS cloak to increase my burst, but still was far off killing him before fourth Overload.

 

I am using Ascendance, primarily because I'm used to it. Would it be better to switch to chi Brew for extra burst after Death from Above?

 

Gearwise I'm running with almost 10k haste, just above 12 crit and around 6k mastery. My gear is gemmed for agility with secondary stats on any non-red socket, because many of the items are also part of my DPS-set. Could I improve my burst by changing my gear?

 

Am I doing something else fundamentally wrong? Is it unrealistic to hope to kill the add before the fourth overload? I am very interested in hearing how others handle the adds, and how fast you are able to kill them.



#532 Gorbachop

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:09 PM

Are you tanking the add so that it's standing in the sawblades? My group has the ranged stack the first 2-3 sawblades and we just tank the add on top of them. Looking at our logs, the sawblades do 30-40% of the damage to the add, ~7-8 million damage. I just switched to my monk to tank 2 weeks ago and I never had problems killing the add in time for the tank swap even at 520-ish ilvl. 

 

 

Now I have a question of my own. So our main paladin tank got a new job and had to quit very suddenly. I switched from my hunter to my monk to tank for our runs so we didn't have to look for a new tank (we have extra dps, but no extra tanks). We did two weeks of normal clears to gear me up and then started back on heroics this week. We killed all the way up to Nazgrim without too many issues. I had to learn the cooldown rotation for Nazgrim executes, but that was the only time I really had any issues. 

 

Now we are on Malkorok, which is a progression fight for us. We had a couple of close attempts before I had to switch to tanking. On Wednesday we spent most of the night on Malk and one of the biggest issues we had was me dying to Malk's melee at >8 stacks. My gear is only ilvl 553 and the healers were saying that I was very hard to keep alive.

 

http://us.battle.net...Derkus/advanced

Here's my armory, I'm currently geared for crit but am wondering if I should regear for mastery/stam since my ilvl is kinda low for this kind of thing.

 

I'm not sure because I just started playing brewmaster like 2 weeks ago so I'm still trying to learn the class/spec which is not really ideal on heroic progression where small mistakes can end up in a wipe. I don't know if my gear is the problem or if I just need to learn to play better.

 

Any suggestions?



#533 Zikura

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:29 PM

I guess I forgot to say my question was about heroic Blackfuse.



#534 Runeheal

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:56 PM

Zikura, are you talking about normal or heroic?

 

Are you using the sawblades and/or the superheated fire?

 

Either way, try glyphing touch of death, and using unglyphed fortifying brew (to increase max hp) and touch of death on the third shredder.

 

I kill the first shredder on heroic by using an agility pot, pooling 4 chi, and precasting chi wave while it is casting death from above. I'd suggest against rolling back as it takes up a gcd, if you tiger's lust yourself and stand just out of death from above you can get back in melee range fairly quickly.

 

After that, with agi pot and death from above, you kinda just gotta pray that keg smash crits. Usually I'm at about 70% crit, but I get the occasional occurrence of NOTHING critting at all during DFA.

 

It's very close for me, sometimes I kill the shredder before the 4th overload, but a lot of the time I get shit crits, or the dps drop horrible sawblades / no fire at all and I'll get the 4th. Doesn't help that I'm still using flex trinkets, but eh.

 

After that I take a 4th stack, immediately snapshot Xuen with the ~280k vengeance I get, then blow the next shredder the fuck up, because you really want to kill the second shredder as fast as possible, since that's when extra overloads are going to cause deaths.

 

The second shredder usually dies seconds after it does it's third overload. If you don't tank the second shredder, consider using Xuen for the first.

 

Other than that, you could ask for skull banner, tricks, etc. Boss damage is largely irrelevant on siegecrafter.



#535 Runeheal

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 09:02 PM

Gorbachop, logs would help out a lot, but from the looks of it, you're pretty undergeared. Malkorok does hit hard, but you shouldn't be dying at 8 stacks if you're using shuffle and EB correctly.

 

Most likely you need to learn brewmaster better, however, your trinkets are kinda crap which doesn't help much, nor does the lack of legendary anything. 

 

Dual wielding isn't the best either, but you don't really have enough crit for it to matter at the moment.

 

Also the 4pc is really good for malkorok, gotta say. 



#536 Gorbachop

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:47 PM

http://www.worldoflo...ipes&boss=71454

There are the logs from the other night.

 

I'm working on the legendary cloak, I'm on the part where I need 3000 valor, so it's going to be a while before I have it.

 

I have http://us.battle.net.../en/item/105311 that I could use instead of the fist weapons.

 

And I've been running flex and LFR in addition to the normal runs trying to get helm or shoulders and better trinkets, those are the only two that I have besides the timeless isle ones.

 

I've been trying to setup my UI so that I can make sure to have EB up all the time when I'm tanking at higher stacks but I'm not sure I'm keeping it up. Have any addon recommendations? Should I be rotating cooldowns at 8-10+? Our bear tanks phase 2 by herself so I don't need to save them for that.



#537 Beryle

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:17 AM

Can't access the armory now, but if you're undergeared you'll probably have trouble to have EB up all the time. Your logs show it's ok with shuffle. You're sometimes a bit slow to purify heavy stagger, and you're also dying from Breath of Ys'raajh from time to time. Anyway you're frequently dying because the raid doesn't manage the void zones correctly. A 800k explosion damage is not going to help you live through the fight...

 

If your co-tank handles the rage phase alone, the rotation should be 12-15 for her at the begining, then you take the boss untill she loses her stack (you'll be around 12-15), then you taunt the boss 30s before the rage, you should keep your cooldowns for the end of this phase because you usually gain a bit more than 15 stacks. FB should be enough for the last 20s of tanking before the rage starts.


Edited by Beryle, 14 January 2014 - 09:30 AM.


#538 Gorbachop

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:16 PM

Can't access the armory now, but if you're undergeared you'll probably have trouble to have EB up all the time. Your logs show it's ok with shuffle. You're sometimes a bit slow to purify heavy stagger, and you're also dying from Breath of Ys'raajh from time to time. Anyway you're frequently dying because the raid doesn't manage the void zones correctly. A 800k explosion damage is not going to help you live through the fight...

 

If your co-tank handles the rage phase alone, the rotation should be 12-15 for her at the begining, then you take the boss untill she loses her stack (you'll be around 12-15), then you taunt the boss 30s before the rage, you should keep your cooldowns for the end of this phase because you usually gain a bit more than 15 stacks. FB should be enough for the last 20s of tanking before the rage starts.

 

My armory is significantly different from yesterday. I switched to the warforged normal 2h'er over the two heroic 1h'ers, picked up the helm for the 4pc, a ring to replace the LFR ring I was using, and the mastery trinket from Siegecrafter. I was gemmed/enchanted/reforged for crit last week which put me around 62% crit raid buffed, which I felt was enough to keep up EB almost all the time barring some unlucky streaks but I was very spikey and hard to keep alive.

 

I did redo my gear for mastery/stam at the request of the raid leader to see if it would work better but two of our dps didn't show up last night so we weren't able to do heroic Malk attempts. I convinced them to do 2 for science but they didn't really last very long because no one was taking it seriously so it was hard to tell if switching my gear made any difference.

 

I'm slow to clear heavy stagger sometimes because I'll have just spent all my chi and be at low energy and have to wait to jab or expel before I can clear. Should I be just banking an extra chi, only spending it on PB and never going down to 0 chi?

 

I think most of the breath deaths are when it's already a wipe and we are trying to die fast so we can get a rez from a hunter or rogue, but I know I died to it at least once because the marks got messed up and I didn't know where it was going to go. I'm still getting used to being in melee again. I've been ranged since first tier of Cata.

 

We do have an issue with people getting void zones. Sometimes someone will call they have one and then not make it when the other person was closer, or they won't be anywhere near their proper spot and won't say anything until it's too late. There's nothing really I can do about that besides try to mitigate it and just make sure I don't die from it.

 

So, how should I be preparing to PB at anytime? Just never hit 0 chi?

 

And thanks for the help.


Edited by Gorbachop, 14 January 2014 - 03:18 PM.


#539 Zikura

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:52 PM

Hello, and thank you for the feedback so far, it has been useful.

 

Are you using the sawblades and/or the superheated fire?

I did not, since we usually swapped at four stacks, I did not have time to position the add on a sawblade before Death From Above. I did try tanking a normal attempt, and logs show the sawblade did almost 20% of the damage to the add. This was with kiting him out and tanking him on a sawblade it as soon as he spawned. The sawblade seemed to hit the boss for 35k twice every second - this is not a negligible amount.

 

 


I'd suggest against rolling back as it takes up a gcd, if you tiger's lust yourself and stand just out of death from above you can get back in melee range fairly quickly.

That is a very good point, and not something I considered!

 

Based on your response, I assume you take three stacks of the boss-debuff and kite the add out as soon as it spawns?


Edited by Zikura, 14 January 2014 - 03:53 PM.


#540 Beryle

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:47 PM

@Gorbachop : since you're using Ascendance, you have enough room to keep some chi for emergency, to pop Guard immediately for example, or purify heavy stagger. You shouldn't use BoK if you're not at 4 or 5 chi. Another point is you got more mastery, so you'll get the heavy stagger more frequently and will need to purify accordingly.

 

If your raid miss a void zone when you have something like 10+ stacks, you'll probably die unless you're ready for it. This simply must not happen...


Edited by Beryle, 14 January 2014 - 04:48 PM.





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