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Like Water - The Brewmaster Discussion Thread


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#561 Nevernite

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 08:40 PM

I don't say haste is better, but still even in the spreadsheet, it compares 1% crit to 1% haste, which is not the same as compairing X amount of rating.


Edited by Nevernite, 30 April 2014 - 08:54 PM.

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#562 Pisshands

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:44 PM

Of course it isn't, but you can still use it to quickly find the difference between 1% Haste and 1% Crit. 1% of each is 425 Haste Rating and 600 Crit Rating. It's one step of basic algebra to compare the differences.

 

Added a couple lines in the spreadsheet to automate that brief comparison and to demonstrate the respective Dodge gains from Crit and Haste gems.


Edited by Pisshands, 30 April 2014 - 10:44 PM.


#563 Carrot

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:42 PM

I am more talking about the mastery though, and choosing haste to help with chi generation to purify as often as is possible. My argument is that you will take less over all damage doing a Mastery spec vs. a crit spec. if you are going to take a 200 hit after armor and you have 45% stagger, then that means you will take 110 hit. If then you add 1% more stagger, you will then take 108 ( and 2 less for every point of stagger) you will then be reducing you damage taken by 1.82% for every point of mastery. However, the damage isn’t removed, it is procrastinated, so that you receive 10% of that amount every second. So every second you let your stagger tick it’s losing .182% of damage reduction from your original 1.82% for 1% mastery. Your spread sheet notes that 1% crit will (buffed) give you .45% dodge. So that means that it’s a .45% theoretical damage reduction for 1% crit. 1% mastery is 1.82% of theoretical damage reduction (it becomes less as you begin to dodge/parry more). If you think of your avoidance at base with shuffle, that is probably about 50% (ish, maybe less, but I’ll round up for the sake of argument) so that means that mastery is only 50% effective, because it’s only working when you get hit. So that reduces the theoretical damage taken to .91 and every second you lose .091% of that after the hit is taken. Now, you’re not going to purify every time you get hit, but let’s say the boss is on a 1 second swing timer and you have your 50% avoidance and so in a perfect world you get hit 5 times in 10 seconds, which would roughly look like this:

 

Seconds    1              2              3              4              5              6              7              8              9              10

Hits         Avoid        Hit          Avoid          Hit          Avoid         Hit          Avoid         Hit          Avoid          Hit

 

 If you purify every 5 seconds, the first time, you have taken 2 hits, the first hit will have ticked for 3 seconds reducing the effect of mastery on it by .273, giving 1% mastery a theoretical .637 damage reduction for the first hit and the second hit will have ticked for 1 second, reducing 1% mastery’s effectiveness by .091 giving it .819% damage reduction, averaging the two gives for the first 5 seconds .728 damage reduction total for 1% mastery. The second 5 seconds, we are hit and it ticks for 4 seconds, reducing effectiveness by .364 giving 1% mastery a .546% damage reduction, 2nd hit ticks for 2 seconds so .182% reduce, making it .728% damage reduction and the 3rd tick is purified instantly and will gain full effective ness of .91% damage reduction. The second purify gives out an average damage reduction of .728% damage reduction. 1% crit only give you .45% (as said by your spread sheet) dodge which is transitively .45% damage reduction. Mastery wins on percentage in this scenario but for rating it take 960 for 1% mastery, and 600 for 1% crit, meaning you need 60% more points for mastery. So let’s increase the dodge % by 60%, we would get .72% dodge from 960 crit rating as opposed to .45%. Meaning that if done perfectly mastery wins out BARELY. But, if we are purifying every 5 seconds we have to look at the fact that we are purifying another 45% from the base, we also could give mastery a 15% increase in effectiveness if we combine it with latest tier 4 piece bonus (though you could give a bonus to crit for the 2 piece, I’m not sure what though). As for my comment about Chi Brew, I like it for this spec better than ascension because of the 5 EB stacks that you can store up, and it’s not a huge difference, and ascension only generates more than power strikes at extremely high levels of haste, I’m not sure what the number is, but as for the 3 talents, it’s a miniscule difference between the 3, and having the on demand chi/EB makes chi brew more enticing to me. Again, not sure if my math is way off here, just throwing some numbers out there.

 

Also, I say haste is second priority to help with Purify brew, and that EB should only be used in oh poop moments, and if you are tank swapping, crit will lose a lot of effectiveness if you cap 15 stacks of EB.

 

It’s all personal preference, and with mastery spec I don’t feel necessarily as kick ass as when I am crit spec, but I feel like I have a zillion times more control over my incoming damage and am not praying to god that my healers don’t get silenced for half a second. Damage smoothing is a huge part of giving slack to your healers for their mana conservation and the ability to not have to focus you, and give you a better effectiveness with using self-heals. As a tank it’s our job to take damage and make it manageable and mastery spec, I feel, does this job best, and it is for that reason I feel that it is the only viable tanking option.

=]



#564 Carrot

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 05:02 PM

Also, after doing some math today I found out that haste and critical strike become equivalent at 60% crit for EB generation. Point for point not percent for percent.

#565 Nevernite

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 11:36 PM

I toyed around with pisshand's spreadsheet and get to 70.78% critchance unbuffed for haste to be better point-for-point.

 

k9TOnIQ.jpg


Edited by Nevernite, 06 May 2014 - 11:36 PM.

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#566 Taser

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 07:23 AM

@Pisshands

From Nevernite's screenshot it seems that you forgot to include a critcap into your calculator. His selected weapon type is 1h therefore it should not be possible to gain dodge (through EB) at about 70% critchance.

 

Btw. some of your calcs in the spreadsheet seem to be really off. Honestly never took a closer look as I always have my own spreadsheets. But hopefully I will have the time to go more into your spreadsheet later.

 

For the time being some first observations:

Dodge% calc in C15

=(3,12+ ((C4 / 1394,3) +( C6 / 900))) / 100

should be (to account for DR and...where did you get those numbers from?)

=3.12 + baseagi/951.158596 + 1 / (1 / 501.3 + 1.422 / ((dodgerating/885) + ((AGI-baseAGI)/951.158596)))

Don't know if you want to include baseAGI (111 for Monk).

 

In C20 you cannot simply divide the hasted swingspeed by 1.01 to add 1% haste. That would mean that haste would be calculated multiplicative with itself, but it is additive. You should recalculate the whole swingspeed in that step.



#567 Pisshands

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 03:40 PM

It was a thrown-together piece of spreadsheet. I made it during ToT, hence the lack of respect for Crit caps, and I added C20 a week ago after not looking at it for ages. Both are reasonably simple fixes to make, but the point of the tool was to demonstrate the relative strength of Haste and Crit for EB generation. As for that:

 

bush-mission-accomplished-iraq-thumbsup.

 

For gearing decisions, it is useless.


Edited by Pisshands, 08 May 2014 - 03:40 PM.


#568 Carrot

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:04 AM

The spread sheet seems off with respect to that, because 70.78% is not nearly what I got.

 

My swing speed is 2.11, and a fight (IMO) lasts 7 mins about (7x60=420sec.)

 

420/2.11 = 199.05 (so 199 swings in that fight)

 

if you have a 50% chance to crit, theoretically you will have 99.52 crits, so ~100. If you add 1% crit you get 101.51 crits so ~102. If you add 1% haste you get 100.53 so ~101. So here we can see that crit wins (were still under 60%) but not by as much as it does with less amounts of crit.

 

Let's look at 60% crit and see what happens when we add 600 crit rating and 600 haste rating

 

again 199.05 swings in the fight

 

60% base to crit here, so 199.05 x .6 = 119.43 crits (in theory) so ~119 is our go off number

61% crit, so 199.05 x .61 = 121.42 crits so ~121 crits ( in theory)

new swing speed 420/(2.11 x ((100-(600/425))/100)) = 201.90 swings in 7 minutes

201.90 x .6= 121.14 crits so ~121 crits

 

I'm not sure what the exact number is, but it's between 60-61% crit, not 70% that 1 point of haste becomes as effective as 1 point of crit.. Also, when using a 2h, i notice that 425 haste gives me more than 1% haste on my total, but not my hover over and look, so I'm not sure what's up with that. Just above Piss says that spread sheet was just thrown together and a little off, but i think this show's it pretty accurately. I'm not sure what the exact number of crit you get buffed is (everyone will be different of course thanks to stats buff with agi) but i'd imagine it's somwhere around the 8% mark meaning you want MAYBE 53% crit unbuffed or you are missing out on EB stack generation ( though not a whole lot)



#569 Nevernite

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:33 AM

Also, when using a 2h, i notice that 425 haste gives me more than 1% haste on my total, but not my hover over and look, so I'm not sure what's up with that.

 

Dunno about your formula and calculations but the haste amount in your character sheet while using a 2-hand is surely influenced by the 40% haste(attackspeed) increase from Way of the Monk.


Edited by Nevernite, 15 May 2014 - 12:52 AM.

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#570 Taser

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:32 AM

Theoretically those breakpoints can be calculated mathematically, just as haste-breakpoints for DoTs. But unlike those the EB-breakpoints are not fixed values. Every time you get a new item with different AGI and/or critrating and /or hasterating the breakpoint will change.

 

For example:

 

25k AGI

18k crit

6k haste

 

  • 0.7593 stacks/second = 22.78% EB-dodge in average

 

+1000 AGI

 

  • 0.7709 stacks/second = 23.13% EB-dodge in average (+0.68% dodge from 1000 AGI) = +1.03% dodge in total

 

+1000 critrating

 

  • 0.7837 stacks/second = 23.51% EB-dodge in average = +0.73% dodge

 

+1000 hasterating

 

  • 0.7750 stacks/second = 23.25% EB-dodge in average = +0.47% dodge

 

+1000 dodgerating

 

  • 0.74% dodge flat

 

 

And at

 

25k AGI

18k crit

12k haste?

 

 

  • 0.8533 stacks/second = 25.6% EB-dodge in average

 

+1000 AGI

 

  • 0.8663 stacks/second = 25.99% EB-dodge in average (+0.68% dodge from 1000 AGI) = +1.07% dodge in total

 

+1000 critrating

 

  • 0.8807 stacks/second = 26.42% EB-dodge in average = +0.82% dodge

 

+1000 hasterating

 

  • 0.8689 stacks/second = 26.07% EB-dodge in average = +0.47% dodge

 

+1000 dodgerating

 

  • 0.74% dodge flat

 

And at

 

25k AGI

24k crit

6k haste?

 

 

  • 0.9058 stacks/second = 27.17% EB-dodge in average

 

+1000 AGI

 

  • 0.9174 stacks/second = 27.52% EB-dodge in average (+0.68% dodge from 1000 AGI) = +1.03% dodge in total

 

+1000 critrating

 

  • 0.9302 stacks/second = 27.91% EB-dodge in average = +0.74% dodge

 

+1000 hasterating

 

  • 0.9245 stacks/second = 27.73% EB-dodge in average = +0.56% dodge

 

+1000 dodgerating

 

  • 0.74% dodge flat

 

There you can see that AGI, crit and haste scale with each other in regards to EB-generation.



#571 Carrot

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 06:28 PM

@Nevermite: I know about the way of the monk but was unsure how it was calculated in, after doing my own personal testing, it appears to be giving me 40% increased haste as well, making haste for 2h's 40% more valuable, meaning that my calculations are off, and that the max crit to get (if using a 2h) is less than originally theorized. I will have to sit down sometime and recalculate that into my math, or try to find more decisive results on way of the monk and the effects that it has on haste. (I didn’t yet check for exactly 40% but I eyeballed it earlier and figured out that in total it was giving me about half again more) (I really hope half again more is the right term to use there  =P). I am using my previously mentioned Mastery/haste stat priority (I love it by the way, and my healers comment that compared to our other monk, even though he is taking SLIGHTLY less damage on fights, which could just be that he out gears me, that my health is far more consistent and I seem to have better control of how my health dips, ducks and dives) and Malkroks polearm is what I will pretty much stay using as I feel it is my BiS

 

@Taser: Crit and haste are dependant of each other, and point for point I feel that they become equal as you scale them equally but yes, I had forgotten to take into account crit from agility and that it’s not as simple as ‘at this amount of crit, haste should be scaled on an equal basis point for point with crit’ I still have to do more research on way of the monk effects on haste value (as said above) and then I will be able to better make an accurate judgment. It will probably result in an equation to plug in agi value to give crit rating at which they should be comparable. Meaning that your crit point rating should as close to X amount as possible above haste rating if you have Y amount of agility for maximum EB generation. These are not the actual numbers; this is just for principle purposes

 

If you have 29,000 agi then your crit rating should be 6000 points higher than your haste, no more, no less for maximization, but if you have 30,000 agi then you should only be 5800 points higher than your haste. Again, these are not the actual numbers, just a representation of what I am talking about. I’ll see if I can conjure up a spread sheet to help us out.

 

Though I still will protest that on tank swap fights, you should only be generating around .5 EB stacks per second, or you will go over your limit and waste points on EB generation as compared to mastery which can effectively remove damage when paired with a chi, and if you are using Chi Brew effectively which gives you 1 EB per 9 secs in theory ( and better than that it’s on demand, so you can chose moments of no EB to use it on), or rather it gives you .11 EB per second of the .5 EB that you should theoretically need. It also effectively allows you to stack 25 seconds of EB as opposed 15 stacks with other talents, so, you don’t need that much crit to keep 100% uptime on EB (uptime being times that you are tanking something) and your points are better off in Mastery, and I argue haste as a secondary because chi can turn mastery from mitigation to avoidance.

 

Look forward to your responses, if you know some info on the way of the monk 2h to haste stuff, let me know so I can start crafting that spreadsheet.


Edited by Carrot, 14 May 2014 - 10:07 PM.


#572 Carrot

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:04 PM

So what i found was that indeed you are right, even with the 40% haste buff, it is slightly over 70% crit that haste becomes equivelant to crit at 70.83% chance. Meaning that with 0 Agility you need to (completely unbuffed) 39,500 more crit rating than haste rating. the equation to figure out how much more Crit rating you want is then

39,500-(Agi * (600/1259.52))

Subtract another 3,000 if you have Crit buff

Just write down your agi buffed in LFR some time and put it in the equation

so raid buffed is 36,500-(Agi*(600/1259.52))

 

This means that with 32k Agi you need 21256 MORE Crit rating than haste for them to become equal.

It's not possible to get that I don't believe and that's MORE than haste, if you have 5% haste buff it puts that number even higher. Also, by the time you reached this number, I would think you would be generating EB faster than you could use it.

 

After all that is said and done though, even with my weak 8k crit and 11,125 Haste I still generate about 270 EB stacks in a 7 minute fight from Auto Attacks, and 55 from Chi Brew, giving me a total of 325 Seconds of EB in a 420 Second fight, meaning that 100 of those seconds will not have EB, giving me a theoretical 77% up time on EB. That's raid buffed with me reforging off all the crit that I possibly can. If it's a tank swap fight that means I only tank the boss 50% of the time ( so I have more than enough stacks to keep it up for 100% of the time I have the boss) and even when I have to go tank something else in the interim (like on blackfuse with his add) that add is not looking at me/ alive for more than half of the time i don't have the boss on me. 5k Crit rating is more than enough to keep EB up 100% of the time tanking a boss when not solo tanking.

18k Crit is CRAZY high, and way over the top. I'm gonna say it again, Stagger/purify is more important to our over all survivability/working relations with healers and their mana pools. I also, on a fight like nazgrim, still do about 120-150k dps (which I dont think is terrible, but maybe I'm a baddie)

 

By the way, here's the equations I worked out to try and help me get all those numbers above

 

A = Haste rating

B = Crit Rating

C = Agi

3.6/(1.4+((A/(425/1.4))/100)) = weapon speed
(B/600)+(C/1259.52)+5 = Crit %
420/Weapon Speed = Number of hits in a 7 minute period
Hits x Crit = Number of Critical Strikes
NoCS x 3 = EB's gained
EB's Gained / 420 = EB's per second
 

420 is the number of seconds in 7 minutes, and I assume a 3.6 speed for polearm cause duh that's the best.

 

For weapon speed I figure out that way of the monk gives you 40% and gives you 40% more haste so that's where the 1.4's come in in the first weapon speed equation I can't open that spread sheet at my work computer (damn restrictive network) so I'm not sure how that compares to pisshands. But this gave me the same results that his spreadsheet did so, I feel it's accurate.



#573 Nevernite

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:53 PM

@Nevermite: I know about the way of the monk but was unsure how it was calculated in, after doing my own personal testing, it appears to be giving me 40% increased haste as well, making haste for 2h's 40% more valuable.

 

Uhhm.. nonono. It doesn't affect your haste - despite your character sheet showing a higher 'haste'.value. It's actually just attackspeed and it is there to balance 2hands and dual wield in addition to other formulas.

It is absolutely the same as Slice and Dice for Rogues in that regard. SnD also doesn't increase haste - only attackspeed. But if SnD is up, the displayed haste amount in the character sheet is increased.

 

Your haste rating does not benefit from The Way of the Monk. The displayed haste is showing you how much faster you attack with your weapons. It doesn't add to your haste rating nor to RPPM's.

 

All it does is: new attack speed = 2hand attackspeed * 1,4


Edited by Nevernite, 14 May 2014 - 11:01 PM.

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#574 Carrot

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 05:31 PM

@Nevermite: I will need to see where you found this information, because I promise you, I add 8998 haste rating, no buffs and it SHOULD give me 21.17 haste ( it shows that if I hover over my speed) and but it is adding 29.64% to my overall attack speed (Exactly 1.4 times 21.17) and then ON TOP OF THAT I get a base 40% haste from way of the monk. So, if I hover over I see that I get 21.17 haste from that amount of rating, but then I end up with 69.64% haste, as opposed to birtday suiting it and getting 40%. So my haste is definitely also being modified by 40%. Need some documentation cause that's what my character is doing, and let me know what you find on your character.



#575 Nevernite

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 07:18 PM

All it does is: new attack speed = 2hand attackspeed * 1,4

 

You have a base attack speed of 100% (makes sense right?). I testet with my rogue, and he has +39.09% haste from rating.

That makes 139.09%. If you multiplay it with 1.4 you get 194.726%. The character sheet displayes the added amount without the 100%.

 

+94.72%

 

That is exactly the same amount I get displayed after I use SnD. My haste rating did not change.

 

It doesn't affect haste directly, but of course it also affects the attackspeed increase we get from haste. You can't increase the base attackspeed without the inreased component from haste.

//edit: Let me rephrase that: Mathematically its the same, but for better comprehension: Lets just say it is the other way around: Your haste rating affects Way of the Monk. WotM just acts as if you would have equipped a faster weapon. This 'faster' weapon is affected by haste rating the same way, as a dagger, a mace or a polearm.

 

And no, it doesn't mean that 2hand is better than dual wield. Dual wield does geht +40% attack damage - and it also affects the haste component. You swing faster because of haste. If you add +damage, you can't make it only affect your non-increased base swingtime speed attacks.

In terms of white damage dual wield and 2hand are balanced. For everything else they are also balanced, because they use diffrent formula for each. e.g. Elusive Brew's coefficient is lower for dual wield since they attack more often than 2hand.

 

 

You could also first add Way of the Monk / slice n dice, and then add your haste rating. (100% *1.4) *1.3909 = 194.72%

All coefficients and damage formulas are balanced around the monk having a 140% base attackspeed with 2hands. So as it is the norm and the formulas take that into account, haste affects dual wield and 2handers equally.

 

Didn't know how to explain, so that its understandable, and maybe I wrote way too much, but it should suffice.

 

//

So my haste is definitely also being modified by 40%.

Yes, but only the increased-attackspeed component from haste rating. Not haste rating itself. And as I wrote above this is all beeing considered in the diffrent attack and proc formulas.

 

If you want more testing: Try to calculate this (look in the comments for the EB formula)

http://www.wowhead.c...128938#comments(EB)

or

http://www.wowhead.c...124502#comments(GotOX)

Gift of the Ox now has a higher proc rate on white attacks: [0.03*WeaponSpeed] for 1H weapons, and [0.06*WeaponSpeed] for 2H weapons.

 

Someone calculated it before - dual wield does get slightly more EB while 2hand gets slightly more GotOX.

 

Calculate it yourself. You know, just to be sure :P

 

It is balanced, I tell you. haste affects both equally.


Edited by Nevernite, 15 May 2014 - 09:34 PM.

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#576 Carrot

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 12:05 AM

Were having a mis-communication, I wasn't saying that 2h was better or worse JUST because of haste, what I was saying is that my original equation was off because I hadn't realized that the 40% was playing into haste, I thought it would be 21% from haste and 40% from monk = 61% not 121% speed 40% increase. I thought it was additive, not multiplicative (I hope that's right) but as far as math, it's as if you are getting a 40% increase to haste (it's the same either way, i just put it at different portions of the equation) but it does make haste more valuable than at least I had orginally thought, because while that rating number isn't actually changing, if using a 2h it effectively means that you only need 303 haste rating for 1% increase in speed. The damage is balanced out because of the 40% increase in damage for dual wield, but is the EB generation? Spread sheet time!

 

http://1drv.ms/1llQoIy

 

So check that out and tell me what you think. I use 1.5 EB per crit for 1h's because 50% 1 and 50% 2 so that averages out to 1.5, the number of it's section is multiplied by .81 to account for 19% miss (if you capped exactly, so, could be slightly less, could be slightly more, but even without the 19%, it was still slightly under Polearm, even pisshands says in his guide that 1h's generate a smoother rate of income of EB but Polearm will produce the most. All the calculations in that are assuming a 7 minute fight ( so 420 seconds) and that you are expertise to 15% and hit to 7.5%. Also the 1h speed is combining both weapons ( meaning i took the speed and halved it so that you could see how often you would get a hit on average, mine is about 1.03 secs per hit.) you can just plug in your stats to check it out, but at my current ratings, i generate more with a 2h Polearm, I'm not sure how much it changes based on lowering haste. Cheers!


Edited by Carrot, 16 May 2014 - 02:33 AM.


#577 Taser

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 01:00 PM

Were having a mis-communication, I wasn't saying that 2h was better or worse JUST because of haste, what I was saying is that my original equation was off because I hadn't realized that the 40% was playing into haste, I thought it would be 21% from haste and 40% from monk = 61% not 121% speed 40% increase. I thought it was additive, not multiplicative (I hope that's right) but as far as math, it's as if you are getting a 40% increase to haste (it's the same either way, i just put it at different portions of the equation) but it does make haste more valuable than at least I had orginally thought, because while that rating number isn't actually changing, if using a 2h it effectively means that you only need 303 haste rating for 1% increase in speed. The damage is balanced out because of the 40% increase in damage for dual wield, but is the EB generation? Spread sheet time!

 

http://1drv.ms/1llQoIy

 

So check that out and tell me what you think. I use 1.5 EB per crit for 1h's because 50% 1 and 50% 2 so that averages out to 1.5, the number of it's section is multiplied by .81 to account for 19% miss (if you capped exactly, so, could be slightly less, could be slightly more, but even without the 19%, it was still slightly under Polearm, even pisshands says in his guide that 1h's generate a smoother rate of income of EB but Polearm will produce the most. All the calculations in that are assuming a 7 minute fight ( so 420 seconds) and that you are expertise to 15% and hit to 7.5%. Also the 1h speed is combining both weapons ( meaning i took the speed and halved it so that you could see how often you would get a hit on average, mine is about 1.03 secs per hit.) you can just plug in your stats to check it out, but at my current ratings, i generate more with a 2h Polearm, I'm not sure how much it changes based on lowering haste. Cheers!

 

OK...to get one thing clarified once and for all: Haste does NOT widen the gap between 1h and 2h. It will always (not always as above 1h critcap 2h will outperform 1h) remain at 1%.

 

Example

2x1h at 2.6 speed vs. 2h at 3.6 speed

Basis = 50% crit, exp-capped + hit-capped

 

At 0 hasterating

1h:

0.5 x 1.5 x 2 / (2.6 / 1.1) = 0.634615 EB stacks per second

2h

0.5 x 3.0 x 1 / (3.6 / 1.4 / 1.1) = 0.641667 EB stacks per second

 

0.641667 / 0.634615 = 1.01111 -> 1.111% more stacks for 2h

 

At 10k hasterating

1h:

0.5 x 1.5 x 2 / (2.6 / 1.1 / (1+10000/42500)) = 0.783937 EB stacks per second

2h

0.5 x 3.0 x 1 / (3.6 / 1.4 / 1.1 / (1+10000/42500)) = 0.792647 EB stacks per second

 

0.792647 / 0.783937 = 1.01111 -> 1.111% more stacks for 2h

 

Now we are going above critcap to...70%

 

At 0 hasterating

1h:

0.57 x 1.5 x 2 / (2.6 / 1.1) = 0.723462 EB stacks per second

2h

0.70 x 3.0 x 1 / (3.6 / 1.4 / 1.1) = 0.898333 EB stacks per second

 

0.898333 / 0.723462 = 1.241714 -> 24.1714% more stacks for 2h

 

At 10k hasterating

1h:

0.57 x 1.5 x 2 / (2.6 / 1.1 / (1+10000/42500)) = 0.893688 EB stacks per second

2h

0.7 x 3.0 x 1 / (3.6 / 1.4 / 1.1 / (1+10000/42500)) = 1.109706 EB stacks per second

 

1.109706 / 0.893688 = 1.241715 -> 24.1715% more stacks for 2h

 

As you can see the only thing that changes the difference between 1h and 2h is if you are going over the critcap. Haste just scales linearly.



#578 Carrot

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 05:42 AM

@Taser: Yea it is, good call, so haste is just as good for EB generation as 1h's. Thanks for coming up with that, I wasn't looking at the percentage more of eb's obtained between 2h's and 1h's. But, using a 2h, part of what gives them 24.1715% more stacks is the 40% increase in speed. But haste rating does not affect this percentage at all. Thanks Taser, and nevermite, hope that you see that 2h is the better choice for EB generation!



#579 Pisshands

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:08 AM

The disparity between 1h and 2h EB gain has nothing to do with Way of the Monk. The rates of EB charges per crit (1.5 for 1h, 2.75 for Staff, 3.0 for Polearm) account for the difference in attack speeds using 1h's vs. Staffs and Polearms with Way of the Monk.

The difference is entirely a result of the white Critical Strike cap at 57% on-boss for dual-wielding and 76% on-boss for 2h. 2h has been established as defensively superior since before Crit capping was attainable. The difference is modest and occurs at the highest levels of gear, where it has the least impact.


Edited by Pisshands, 25 May 2014 - 09:10 AM.


#580 Taser

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 02:06 PM

Well, lots of factors, including way of the monk, have to do with the disparity, which is 24% at lower levels, and higher if your crit levels are above 57%. Way of the monk was an attempt to balance the damage of the 2 so that one did not clearly beat the other (even though 1h's come out on top) But as for EB generation, Polearms take the lead by a good amount, and something has to account for this. If blizzard was trying to make them exactly even, removing way of the monk would favor 1h's then for EB generation. I think the big thing that is not being accounted for is 1h's chance to miss white damage (19% if exactly hit capped at 7.5%) If that wasn't there, Polearms and 1h's would be almost identical ( polearms would still win, but by a negligible amount). If i have 20% crit the disparity will be 24% more EB for Polearms, and if i have 55% crit that disparity is the same in ratio, 24%. 24% more uptime on EB is pretty significant, realistically making crit 24% more effective for polearms ( that being that i need about 20% less crit to get the same EB generation with a polearm as i do with 1h's) to all those out there rocking that 16000 crit (which again I will state is way to much, mastery ftw) and using 1h's ( gross) if you switch to a pole arm it would be equivelant (in EB generation) to adding 4000 crit rating on to yourself. Who wouldn't want that? Viva la mastery, and viva la Polearms!

 

Well...you are wrong. You already got several different explanations on how Way of the Monk and EB work. One last attempt.

 

All weapons are balanced. No matter if 1h, Polearm, Staff or whatever. And Way of the Monk is the reason why everything is balanced.

 

You can leave the critchance completely out of the equation. Just have a look at weaponspeed and stacks generated:

1h = 2.6 speed for 1.5 stacks...times 2 as you have 2x1h = 3 stacks on 2.6 speed

Staff = 3.3 speed / 1.4 = 2.36 speed for 2.75 stacks (2h not always get 3 stacks. You have to calculate 3 / 3.6 x baseweaponspeed)

Polearm = 3.6 speed / 1.4 = 2.57 speed for 3 stacks

 

3 / 2.6 = 1.154

2.75 / 2.36 = 1.165

3 / 2.57 = 1.167

 

1h's increased chance to miss only becomes a factor when reaching the critcap (60% raidbuffed on character sheet). Even at this point you get enough stacks of EB that it does not even matter.

 

EDIT: Mixed up weaponspeed of staff and polearm. But that doesn't change the math at all. Thanks @ Pisshands and Nevernite for the discrete hints.


Edited by Taser, 28 May 2014 - 08:37 AM.





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