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[WW] 5.4 -Siege of the Fist


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#41 tastysnack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:29 PM

OK - thank you for clarifying, I now see where the problem exists (plus... I can't see myself wanting to use TeB at 5 stacks unless I did have a proc/lust/potion). And I agree - that's a loss for not pooling the stacks, but also a loss because I'd imagine that anyone with that amount of haste would be sacrificing other stats.

However, we should see a much higher uptime.

On that note: lawdy I hope I'm DW by then. More dancing steel procs with more TeB uptime? Those meters would be mine.

Also: it was my understanding that Xuen doesn't benefit from TeB. I'm not sure why it would be important to use him while the buff is active? Setting aside synchronizing him with procs/CDs.
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#42 Eeinx

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:52 PM

I don't see why they wouldn't - but then, I can't imagine why Xuen doesn't benefit.

Keep in mind, too, that the new mastery will also have an effect on crit.


But not a direct mechanical interaction, which is what i was going at :P

On a side note:
Serge @ simc updated all the windwalker stuff so i'm going over it now hahaha

Edit: Yup looked it over. Should be good. Gahddo is working on a profile now.
There was even a bug that caused TEB to give no bonus previously due to a stellar change someone ninja added. Free DPS!

#43 gahddo

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:55 AM

I've started working on updating the action list to reflect the changes. Simulationcraft has a *functioning* 5.2 windwalker core, waiting for eein to pass over it and make sure its 100% thought.

The only thing that struck me to change was the TEB usage. It appears its now a gain to keep it up 100% regardless of stacks, primarily because in the 15 second interval between casts you're now generating 6.42 TEB stacks in the sim currently. (not optimally regeared yet). It was almost a 1k dps increase over using it at 10 stacks and not active or 20 and active (to prevent losing stacks passed 20 it was set to immediately use it at 20 regardless of duration).

Further refining the list before I post weights, but haste/mastery have a STRONG interaction now, and a bug was fixed in simc with regards to TEB that was present before the ptr patch. This means that more than likely the weights will end up being haste to a certain stable point then mastery with crit decently behind. Also, mastery is going to scale insanely well at higher weapon dps levels for obvious reasons.

-edit- Further testing has both haste and mastery over half the value of agility...YAY HASTE GEMS.

#44 Eeinx

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:15 AM

I've started working on updating the action list to reflect the changes. Simulationcraft has a *functioning* 5.2 windwalker core, waiting for eein to pass over it and make sure its 100% thought.

The only thing that struck me to change was the TEB usage. It appears its now a gain to keep it up 100% regardless of stacks, primarily because in the 15 second interval between casts you're now generating 6.42 TEB stacks in the sim currently. (not optimally regeared yet). It was almost a 1k dps increase over using it at 10 stacks and not active or 20 and active (to prevent losing stacks passed 20 it was set to immediately use it at 20 regardless of duration).

Further refining the list before I post weights, but haste/mastery have a STRONG interaction now, and a bug was fixed in simc with regards to TEB that was present before the ptr patch. This means that more than likely the weights will end up being haste to a certain stable point then mastery with crit decently behind. Also, mastery is going to scale insanely well at higher weapon dps levels for obvious reasons.

-edit- Further testing has both haste and mastery over half the value of agility...YAY HASTE GEMS.


I did a tiny bit of testing, and i found at somewhere near 8.6k haste, mastery overtakes haste.
Probably varies depending on levels of agility (maybe)

We'll see.

Could also vary on the interaction of SEF and some other stuff that isn't in the profile yet.

#45 Usernaem

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:09 AM

@tastysnack

I did extensive testing, if you want screenshots I have them, and have come to the conclusion that reaching the DW hit cap is an utter waste. The difference is about 7% loss trying for it than it was to just hit 2550 or 7.50% and move on.

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#46 Caltiom

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:44 AM

[...]Further refining the list before I post weights, but haste/mastery have a STRONG interaction now, and a bug was fixed in simc with regards to TEB that was present before the ptr patch.[...]


To be more precise: The TEB damage increase ( from the buff you get after consuming the built-up stacks ) was NEVER implemented in SimC before my bugfix. So even non-ptr monks got a ~ 7% damage increase with that. I don't know how you guys didn't catch that before ;)

Chi Wave isn't correctly implemented at all as well, not sure if you need that for single target damage.

#47 tastysnack

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:41 AM

@tastysnack

I did extensive testing, if you want screenshots I have them, and have come to the conclusion that reaching the DW hit cap is an utter waste. The difference is about 7% loss trying for it than it was to just hit 2550 or 7.50% and move on.


I even state in the guide that it is a waste of stats to go beyond 7.5% :) All I state is that it does benefit not missing with your OH, but it wastes stats in other areas - which is an overall loss in damage. In fact, in several areas of the guide, I notate that hit/exp are only useful to 7.5%.

Also, note that when dual wielding, extra hit is not considered a loss as it can counteract the 25% penalty for offhand auto attacks. However, more than 2550 hit rating (for races which do not automatically receive 1% hit) or 7.5% hit rating is not advised to be actively sought. Again, I recommend simulating and testing.


Edit: I will add some clarifying text, but the fact remains that DW does technically continue to benefit from extra hit - but it's still a waste in stats and still a loss in overall damage.
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#48 Usernaem

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

Again, I recommend simulating and testing.


Yea, that's why I went ahead and tested it. Just something worth noting.

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#49 saboya

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:05 PM

-edit- Further testing has both haste and mastery over half the value of agility...YAY HASTE GEMS.

Since haste has a "cap", and it's fairly easily reachable from gear only, I doubt it's going to be worth gemming it.

#50 Usernaem

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

Since haste has a "cap", and it's fairly easily reachable from gear only, I doubt it's going to be worth gemming it.


It still is.

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#51 gahddo

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 03:00 AM

The reason haste/mastery gems are overtaking agility next patch is the insanely strong interaction between the two. Once you get to that previously mentioned 8-9k mark eein was working on finding for haste, mastery becomes beyond king as a stat due to the increased availability of TEB stacks from the haste. As I said, its not just haste...mastery is also worth over half of agility, haste is simply slightly better than it until that comfortable level where you have a sustainable TEB stack. I've tested with the current t14h gear...I'll work on a +8 upgrade for some next tier comparison soon.

A bit limited right now as my desktop isn't fully assembled so I'm half ass working from my laptop.

-edit- just a side note, this is all in reference to DW, I've done nothing with 2h yet.
-edit- side side note...this is all probably going to be worthless when they inevitably nerf at least some aspect of windwalker to compensate for how hilarious is it on ptr right now...but.

#52 gahddo

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:39 AM

Further testing for 2h shows that mastery > haste (more than likely up to the same point as dw or close to it, haven't tested to confirm as its not achievable in t14h gear) > crit. Mastery is better than haste at all levels. Also, the gap has been drastically closed for 2h/dw.

DW Best thus far - 160109.0
2H best thus far - 155100.8

-edit- I'd also like to note that this applies to live as well. 2h is about 5k behind on live with bis now, the gap we saw before was more than likely caused by the TEB issue.

#53 tastysnack

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:26 AM

5K is still going to be a noticable number in the longterm. The math I'm doing is showing ~1-3% difference - which seems negligible, but really isn't, although it's certainly better than the 3-5% differences I've noticed in the past. In a 6 minute fight, that's still a difference of around 1, 802, 952 (please correct my math if I'm incorrect) - which for some raids, can be a pretty major difference, though I agree that it's nice to see the distance between the two closing.

Also, with 7-8K haste, that translates into 1.9 - 2 more energy/s (not counting the bonus from Ascension, and considering 3577.173 Haste Rating translates into 1 e/s), if my maths are correct (again, correct me if I messed something up! I may be good at math, but my algebra skills leave something to be desired). I think that circles around back to "When does Power Strikes pull ahead of Ascension in damage" - having 11-12 e/s without Ascension would even them out for DW, wouldn't it? Considering loss of energy from FoF and EB into the equation, wouldn't DW even begin to lose damage?

But, with mastery overtaking haste, that would mean that 2H would still see Ascension as the best talent from that tier.


On that note, now that we're finding priorities, I'm going to begin drafting an update to the main post. I'll throw it up on Google Docs later this evening with annotations on TC vs. what's on live, just to track changes and be able to edit as PTR patches/changes are released.

And, Gahddo, thanks a ton for all of your work!
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#54 Eeinx

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:31 AM

Don't talk to me about SEF, i'm dreading the implementation! :P Makes me wanna cry thinking about it. Hopefully they have it up by this coming week. Also, there's some thought that chi wave might be added to our priority after the buff so I finished implementing a 'good enough' version of that today.

#55 tastysnack

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:29 AM

Don't talk to me about SEF, i'm dreading the implementation! :P Makes me wanna cry thinking about it. Hopefully they have it up by this coming week. Also, there's some thought that chi wave might be added to our priority after the buff so I finished implementing a 'good enough' version of that today.


Take your time.

Meanwhile, I began the draft for 5.2's monk guide: https://docs.google....RNsV3gSVoc/edit
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#56 gahddo

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:07 AM

Forgot to mention chi wave, thanks for reminding me eein. Its by far the best single target of the three abilities, and in my opinion the hands down choice for WW unless you're dealing with an aoe fight. Chi burst clearly wins in cases of multiple targets, however chi wave, with perfect usage of bounces, is a 5k dps increase. Now, chances are you won't get a perfect number of bounces onto the boss in a raiding situation, so I don't think its worth adding into the set rotation. It is, however, very good raid healing with an added bonus of no cost and a chance at damage, so keep this in mind.

#57 Crevan

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:47 PM

Meanwhile, I began the draft for 5.2's monk guide: https://docs.google....RNsV3gSVoc/edit

In Basic Mechanics - Passive Effects - Brewing section, you write that with zero mastery a full 10-stack of TEB gives a flat 10% damage increase, which is not quite true. With zero mastery rating, we still have 1.6% increase from base mastery, which brings the 10-stack effect to 26% baseline.

#58 Crevan

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:27 AM

I've played around with the latest (510-9) Simc build to compare live results to provisional PTR ones, and noticed something strange. Using the exact same profiles and action lists, the PTR sim was showing 4%-5% lower numbers than current live. I've noticed that the tigereye_brew_use uptime was half of the 5.1 numbers, which doesn't really make any sense with halved chi requirements to gain stacks: I would expect higher uptime, not lower.

Am I missing something here?

#59 Caltiom

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:16 AM

I've played around with the latest (510-9) Simc build to compare live results to provisional PTR ones, and noticed something strange. Using the exact same profiles and action lists, the PTR sim was showing 4%-5% lower numbers than current live. I've noticed that the tigereye_brew_use uptime was half of the 5.1 numbers, which doesn't really make any sense with halved chi requirements to gain stacks: I would expect higher uptime, not lower.

Am I missing something here?

Yes: The line actions+=/tigereye_brew,if=!buff.tigereye_brew_use.up&buff.tigereye_brew.react=10
( Which activated if you can react to exactly 10 stacks, which was ok in 5.1 )

needs to be changed to something like

actions+=/tigereye_brew,if=!buff.tigereye_brew_use.up&buff.tigereye_brew.react>=10 or whatever you think is best.

#60 gahddo

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

Yes: The line actions+=/tigereye_brew,if=!buff.tigereye_brew_use.up&buff.tigereye_brew.react=10
( Which activated if you can react to exactly 10 stacks, which was ok in 5.1 )

needs to be changed to something like

actions+=/tigereye_brew,if=!buff.tigereye_brew_use.up&buff.tigereye_brew.react>=10 or whatever you think is best.


pewpew - Pastebin.com current best action list we have. Changes:
- FoF is a dps loss for dw and negligible for 2h
- Chi wave
- The abundance of TEB stacks means keeping a 100% (94-96% realistic) uptime is the best way to go

As for stats, right now we're showing (without fof) mastery > haste > crit for both 2h and dw, both of which are worth over half haste (gemming ftw). DW is still 5k ahead of 2h sadly.

-edit- Once, or if, they add SEF, I'd like to also refine the "aoe" rotation...because no one has really ever tested it in depths.




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