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[WW] 5.4 -Siege of the Fist


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#921 Arathius

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:06 AM

As were in between pulls tonight on Thok Ive been testing it and its still working the same way. I think its just the interaction with Spirit Link. Because it drops off when I dont pair them after two roars



#922 jacapo

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:48 PM

I've seen a lot of WW gemming straight Agi or straight Crit. Is there any benefit to really using the Agi gems over crit/haste?



#923 Crevan

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:20 AM

My personal testing and simming has shown that both crit and haste are valued at over 0.5 agility on a straight patchwerk fight. With movement, target switches, adds and downtime, agility edges ahead. The actual difference is minimal. Sim your char to see what's best for you.

#924 Arathius

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:02 AM

The biggest reason you gem agi is how well it collectively scales with weapon damage. Wep damage is king for scaling our dps so as you upgrade your weapons the gains from agi will become larger. 

So doing some personal testing Ive noticed a dps increase when dropping 4p for higher ilvl off pieces with 2p. My secondary stats stayed almost static through the upgrade. Checked again on target dummies and I was seeing anywhere from 5-8k increase for each individual 10 minute iteration. With no buffs I was sitting at ~305k using 2p, with my lowest iteration being 289 with 4p and highest at 308k with 2p and higher ilvl offpiece



#925 Jazzyy

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:58 AM

The biggest reason you gem agi is how well it collectively scales with weapon damage. Wep damage is king for scaling our dps so as you upgrade your weapons the gains from agi will become larger. 

So doing some personal testing Ive noticed a dps increase when dropping 4p for higher ilvl off pieces with 2p. My secondary stats stayed almost static through the upgrade. Checked again on target dummies and I was seeing anywhere from 5-8k increase for each individual 10 minute iteration. With no buffs I was sitting at ~305k using 2p, with my lowest iteration being 289 with 4p and highest at 308k with 2p and higher ilvl offpiece

Define higher level offpiece. How big of a bump up was it? Were the stats on the items preferred?



#926 Arathius

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:46 AM

The piece in question for me was a jump from Headpiece of Seven Sacred Seals to Hood of Blackened Tears. I then after noticing the change went from Leggings of Seven Sacred Seals to Riou's Vigilant Leggings for my further testing.

As to stats Im currently at the white crit cap so I have been balancing into haste and out of crit slightly. The stats on the items arent perfect, but I havent finished simming for mastery levels and seeing if there is a swing in secondaries somewhere that I could hit as a balance. ATM my stat set up is crit to white hit cap > haste > crit > mastery. 



#927 Eyedore

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:57 AM

As to stats Im currently at the white crit cap so I have been balancing into haste and out of crit slightly. The stats on the items arent perfect, but I havent finished simming for mastery levels and seeing if there is a swing in secondaries somewhere that I could hit as a balance. ATM my stat set up is crit to white hit cap > haste > crit > mastery. 

 

Isn't it better to get your haste to your prefered level, and then all into crit, even if that means going over the white crit cap?

As far as I know haste is still the best stat, but only if you can use the energy it gives you, so once you reached your prefered haste level you can go all for crit. Crit after white crit cap is still worth about 82% of the crit before the cap (cause melee does around 18% of our damage), so it is still very good.

 

Edit: Just checked your armory, and our stats are really very similar, even though you are 2 ilvl's higher than I am. The difference is that I'm using TEB and you have AoC trinket, which explains me having the same amount of stats while being 2 ilvl's lower.


Edited by Eyedore, 08 November 2013 - 11:05 AM.


#928 Arathius

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:36 AM

 

 

Isn't it better to get your haste to your prefered level, and then all into crit, even if that means going over the white crit cap?

This is just from personal experience, but I found a larger increase when I focused on crit over haste for secondaries. I've gotten quite used to using Chi Brew, and since I'm using AoC I can afford to have slightly lower haste atm. If/when I get a H TeB, Id get a little more haste to balance it out.



#929 Runeheal

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:30 PM

Hi guys, I'm a brewmaster tank. 11/14h 10m. Here's armory: http://us.battle.net...neheal/advanced

 

I often play windwalker for 1 tank fights, but there's not much (on heroic, that is) where we actually 1 tank anything.

 

I've gotten quite a lot of offspec gear, since protector tokens drop like crazy.

 

I do enjoy windwalker, and I do know the basics of it, but I have a few questions.

 

I have Assurance of Consequence (0/2 upgraded because like I said, I'm mainly BrM).

 

It's an upgrade over other trinkets just from it's proc, since I've had kinda bad luck.

 

I know it's not that flash of a trinket.

 

My problem is that I use chi brew, and with so much energizing brew, I seem to be always:

Capping Energy

Having 2 charges of chi brew for about 15 seconds at the start of a fight

Having 2 charges of chi brew for about 30 seconds at the start of a fight with bloodlust

Occasionally capping chi

Having to jab when I have combo breaker procs to avoid capping energy

Occasionally capping tigereye brew (!) when mastery procs lots

 

Also, I find it very hard to use fists of fury. By that, I mean I very rarely find myself in situations where I won't be capping energy, delaying RSK, or not using combo breaker procs.

 

It's a shame because FoF seems like it does decent damage, and the cooldown of it is 17.4 seconds with AoC.

 

Also find it hard to actually get globals to use Chi Wave in. Should I swap to chi burst since it feels like I only manage to get it in every 25 seconds or so.

 

Am I doing something wrong, or is this just a result of having AoC + (4pc + chi brew )

 

Have I got too much haste/mastery or something? The way I see it, with the 4pc, it basically means mastery = mastery + a tiny bit of haste.

 

Also, some of my gear is gemmed for brewmaster (ie full full crit)

-neck

-belt

-rings

-staff

-cape

-hands 

-legs

-feet


Edited by Runeheal, 18 November 2013 - 02:26 PM.


#930 Arathius

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:53 PM

Some of the quick pointers would be starting to gem any off pieces you get around your WW set. Common sense yes, but that much crit will be wasted in heroic gear. You will exceed your white crit cap (60%) so it will diminish slightly in value. You would want mostly agi to help get those bigger weapon damage numbers, but as always sim yourself and check how to best optimize.

Your haste is actually under what I would say is the optimal range. Around 10-11k is where most of the high end WW monks are sitting at atm. Its a bit personal on the exact number you go for based on latency, and how much you are intending to optimize strictly for each fight. IE fights where you lose 2-3 seconds dps time on a semi regular basis for w/e reason you would want less haste. If you keep capping gcds at that low haste you just need to work on the rotation more. Make sure you arent hitting EB exactly on cd if it isnt going to be a gain. Ive talked to a couple people who do that with the cdr trinket, and it wastes potential resources. Even if it sits off cd for 3-6 seconds its better to not waste what you get out of it. 

Chi Wave should take priority over a standard BoK filler so that will come with more practice. 



#931 mandible

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 03:29 PM

I'm sorry I went back a few pages but must have missed it.  

Is the reason you recommend 10-11k(is this buffed or unbuffed) haste that you don't use ascension any longer?  

Is Chi Brew the go to talent then?  

I was finding with Ascension and like 6k(unbuffed) haste I was finding it hard to blow through all my resources regularly.  

( FoF, Chi Wave( is this the best option for this tier? ), Energizing Brew ) 
I'm around 530 ilvl but have lucked out to have a 548 weapon also I have an Assurance of Consequences now.  



#932 Hinalover

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:34 PM

I'm sorry I went back a few pages but must have missed it.  

Is the reason you recommend 10-11k(is this buffed or unbuffed) haste that you don't use ascension any longer?  

Is Chi Brew the go to talent then?  

I was finding with Ascension and like 6k(unbuffed) haste I was finding it hard to blow through all my resources regularly.  

( FoF, Chi Wave( is this the best option for this tier? ), Energizing Brew ) 
I'm around 530 ilvl but have lucked out to have a 548 weapon also I have an Assurance of Consequences now.  

 Basically yes. Chi Brew, once the Hot Fix went in to tie Chi Brew Chi generation to our mastery, the change made the talent a bit too powerful and is now the go-to talent for overall Chi generation. However due to the lack of haste from switching to Chi Brew, you are still going to get haste starved waiting on energy for Jab and/or Rushing Jade Wind. To that end you increase your haste to compensate. That is why people say for those who do not have the Assurance to go 10-11k haste rating (there is no buff or unbuff option, just unbuff). If you are using the Assurance, to drop about 1500 or so Haste Rating from the 10-11k haste rating.


Edited by Hinalover, 10 December 2013 - 07:36 PM.


#933 Jazzyy

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 06:17 PM

I'm approaching 570 ilvl this coming week (http://us.battle.net.../Jazzy/advanced) and I'm wondering about some old math that was going around about TTP and TED. Do you guys think grabbing a Normal Thok's Tail Tip would be just as good, if not better, than grabbing a Normal TED or even Heroic AoC? Kind of confused on trinkets and what to grab. My DK Tank still needs TTP so I'm not gonna get it any time soon and since I can't coin it.....



#934 Arathius

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 06:51 AM

A heroic Thoks will certainly be bis for you and a noticeable dps gain. You will want to play with sims and see when it becomes enough of an increase to your monk to warrant taking over any str classes that may want it. From some sims I've done on the matter at roughly ~575 gs it becomes enough of an increase to be a comparable roll to your other would be recipients. Normal should still be an increase over a H AoC as that trinket is vastly over valued by many. The proc is all that it really gives you. But in a normal I'd run your own sims with it just to see how it turns out. At a quick glance at your gear Id say the Thoks would certainly be better than normal TeD.



#935 Beryle

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:28 PM

Hi there ! I've been reading these forums for quite a long time now, it's time to write some words...

 

It seems a lot of monks trust the sims from SimCraft, although it appears that it doesn't take into consideration the cd reduction from AoC. Even with FoF set as the top priority, the cycle shows two casts separated by 25-26s minimum. Does anybody ever saw this inside his sims ?

 

Now, without talking about sims, I'm ok with the fact that the trinket is less efficient in some encounters where we cannot cast FoF on cd, but the dps gain of the trinket can't be "only the proc". Celestalon also said in recent tweets that WW monks should try to use FoF on cd to be optimal, so reducing its cooldown must be a good thing...



#936 Hinalover

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:35 PM

Hi there ! I've been reading these forums for quite a long time now, it's time to write some words...

 

It seems a lot of monks trust the sims from SimCraft, although it appears that it doesn't take into consideration the cd reduction from AoC. Even with FoF set as the top priority, the cycle shows two casts separated by 25-26s minimum. Does anybody ever saw this inside his sims ?

 

Now, without talking about sims, I'm ok with the fact that the trinket is less efficient in some encounters where we cannot cast FoF on cd, but the dps gain of the trinket can't be "only the proc". Celestalon also said in recent tweets that WW monks should try to use FoF on cd to be optimal, so reducing its cooldown must be a good thing...

 

It could be any number of reasons why it is still FoF is not being used more often in your Sim

 

a) You have too much haste and it's saying you will be energy capping while FoF is being cast

b ) try taking out some of the conditions for FoF (such as RSK is X seconds from coming off cooldown)


Edited by Hinalover, 09 January 2014 - 07:35 PM.


#937 Beryle

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 08:13 PM

First action after auto_attack is FoF, with no condition. So you're saying that you see the cooldown reduction in your sims ?



#938 Hinalover

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:50 AM

First action after auto_attack is FoF, with no condition. So you're saying that you see the cooldown reduction in your sims ?

 

I'm looking at the code and Fist of Fury is supposedly implemented into the cooldown reduction list. So it SHOULD be working.

 

https://code.google....e_gear.cpp#2961

{ MONK_WINDWALKER,     { "energizing_brew", "fist_of_fury", "flying_serpent_kick", "fortifying_brew", "zen_meditation", 0, 0 } },

Edited by Hinalover, 10 January 2014 - 03:50 AM.


#939 Beryle

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 08:35 AM

It may seem dumb, but it's "fists_of_fury", isn't it ? At least in the WW profile. I don't know if the name is used as it is to take the cd reduction into consideration.


Edited by Beryle, 10 January 2014 - 08:39 AM.


#940 Hinalover

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:42 PM

It may seem dumb, but it's "fists_of_fury", isn't it ? At least in the WW profile. I don't know if the name is used as it is to take the cd reduction into consideration.

 

Your right....I'll get that fixed; as well as update that list with the Brewmaster cooldown reductions (though only 3 of the abilities are modeled at this point).

 

Though this fix will not make it until the next release; unless you use a mac, and thus can get the nightly build.

 

Edit:

 

Ok it's fixed on SimC; after a bit of getting TortoiseGIT to work since TortoiseSVN stopped working for me. :\


Edited by Hinalover, 10 January 2014 - 10:04 PM.





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