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HolyCalcs beta, 5.2 PTR


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#21 Szeretlek

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:54 AM

I cant see a part with detailed HPS, HPET, HPM info? Is there one?
I found Summary Heal info about all spells at "Heal" tab, but nothing about HPS and HPM

Anyway, great job! I really hope that you keep that up =)

#22 Hamsda

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:16 AM

I cant see a part with detailed HPS, HPET, HPM info? Is there one?
I found Summary Heal info about all spells at "Heal" tab, but nothing about HPS and HPM

Anyway, great job! I really hope that you keep that up =)


I am currently working on a spreadsheet (for a month or two). It will be no where as "massive" as Hamlets sheets I guess, but that wasn't my focus when I started it. My main focus was to provide me with accurate data in terms of hps, hpm, hpet and I think that part is pretty much done.
At the moment the layout and some other stuff is still pretty beta and you have to input stats manually (int, spirit, crit/mast/haste ratings) because I just started working on an armoryimport function with the community api.
But I guess I could provide it if people are interested in it. Just let me know :)
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#23 Hidden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:42 AM

Ah, that's right. Although, the Disc version doesn't affect anything that's modelable on paper. The extra PWS you get is a normal PWS for all intents and purposes; you just get to cast it on a target you otherwise wouldn't. So it will be a blank talent in the sheet. I could make it add a PWS for each proc, but you could do the same thing by increasing PWS casts in the rotation, probably not worth bothering.


First off, I edited in some more things I noticed while you were typing, you may want to take a quick look.

Additionally I'm not sure how you'd want to implement it without it becoming too cumbersome but you may want to include the shield caps (40% of Priest's HP for DA and 60% for SpS). I'm not talking about including multiple spells' capping the absorption here as that's similar to overheal but with current gear you're already running into single spells overcapping and having their DA shields reduced by the cap. Thus mastery value for those spells is actually zero unlike the (low yet existant) value listed in the spreadsheet.

This is mostly true for GH right now but it may easily extend to other spells in the future considering health scales linearly (with stamina) while DA shields show cubic scaling behaviour as they scale with SP and mastery.

The main problem I see with an implementation is that you'd probably need to divide heals into different phases (e.g. with/without Archangel) to get proper results on how much of the time you're overcapping.

Edit: Just a sidenote. The spreadsheet shows pretty well how bad Holy actually is when you cannot spam PoH exclusively in 5.2. Tinkering around with TreeCalcs, HolyCalcs and the T14H gear in each of those you can quickly see how bad Holy's mana situation is. E.g. aiming for 150k HPS while still having 10% of idle time filled with FH/RG, adjusting reforges from Holy to Mastery and then adjusting Reju/PoH to get roughly 150k HPS, I ended up at roughly 200 seconds to OOM for Holy and 300 seconds to OOM for Resto. Now if you include Restoration Druid's flexibility (Reju not bound to groups and moveable while casting unlike PoH, Druid able to switch to efficient tank-heal and back on the fly without waiting for Chakra cooldown), Holy seems just like a gimmick spec you bring in 25 man fights where you're able to effectively chain-cast PoH all day long.

#24 Hamlet

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:00 PM

I cant see a part with detailed HPS, HPET, HPM info? Is there one?
I found Summary Heal info about all spells at "Heal" tab, but nothing about HPS and HPM

Anyway, great job! I really hope that you keep that up =)


Thanks!

HPET/HPM info of each spell is in the "individual spell data" box on the bottom right of the first page.

I want to keep it up at least somewhat. In truth I really only made it because I wanted to work out all the HPET/HPM comparisons for all the spells and building it into TreeCalcs was the easiest way. That's why I haven't really overhauled the rotation tab/inputs. I think it's more likely that if ever redo the ones for TreeCalcs I'd copy them over here. Also, Tecton is the one who manages the gear selector and I'm probably not going to conscript him to keep up more sheets.

Let me see how far I get with it before 5.2. In general I'll probably keep revisiting when there are obvious spell changes, but if you guys like it and really want to get it really robust we should probably see if someone from here will eventually take it over.


First off, I edited in some more things I noticed while you were typing, you may want to take a quick look.

Additionally I'm not sure how you'd want to implement it without it becoming too cumbersome but you may want to include the shield caps (40% of Priest's HP for DA and 60% for SpS). I'm not talking about including multiple spells' capping the absorption here as that's similar to overheal but with current gear you're already running into single spells overcapping and having their DA shields reduced by the cap. Thus mastery value for those spells is actually zero unlike the (low yet existant) value listed in the spreadsheet.

This is mostly true for GH right now but it may easily extend to other spells in the future considering health scales linearly (with stamina) while DA shields show cubic scaling behaviour as they scale with SP and mastery.

The main problem I see with an implementation is that you'd probably need to divide heals into different phases (e.g. with/without Archangel) to get proper results on how much of the time you're overcapping.

Edit: Just a sidenote. The spreadsheet shows pretty well how bad Holy actually is when you cannot spam PoH exclusively in 5.2. Tinkering around with TreeCalcs, HolyCalcs and the T14H gear in each of those you can quickly see how bad Holy's mana situation is. E.g. aiming for 150k HPS while still having 10% of idle time filled with FH/RG, adjusting reforges from Holy to Mastery and then adjusting Reju/PoH to get roughly 150k HPS, I ended up at roughly 200 seconds to OOM for Holy and 300 seconds to OOM for Resto. Now if you include Restoration Druid's flexibility (Reju not bound to groups and moveable while casting unlike PoH, Druid able to switch to efficient tank-heal and back on the fly without waiting for Chakra cooldown), Holy seems just like a gimmick spec you bring in 25 man fights where you're able to effectively chain-cast PoH all day long.


Will think about caps. The gear tracker does include Stamina, so maybe would only be a little work. You're right about the quadratic scaling. Maybe for now we can hope that if people shed mastery in 5.2 it will delay the problem for a while.

No, Don't have IF yet, will have to put something in.

Glyph of Binding Heal is in and works in the spell table, it's just not in the rotation. Probably should be as another filler spell.

I didn't add PW:Solace for Holy. I should for completeness, but I think the 5.2 version with a cooldown is going to be weak for Holy; it no extra healing, eats a lot of GCDs which is impractical, and still is a little less mana than Mindbender.

I'm wary of doing straight cross-class comparisons based on total raw HPS output in the sheet. That number is just a bit too far removed from actual context I think. One of the things I'm hoping to use the sheets for is to get into better analysis of class balance armed with the comparison info for the individual spells. I do agree Holy has issues though, and one of the obvious points looking at the table is that it no spell with anything like the sheer strength of Penance.

#25 Hidden

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

I didn't add PW:Solace for Holy. I should for completeness, but I think the 5.2 version with a cooldown is going to be weak for Holy; it no extra healing, eats a lot of GCDs which is impractical, and still is a little less mana than Mindbender.

I'm wary of doing straight cross-class comparisons based on total raw HPS output in the sheet. That number is just a bit too far removed from actual context I think. One of the things I'm hoping to use the sheets for is to get into better analysis of class balance armed with the comparison info for the individual spells. I do agree Holy has issues though, and one of the obvious points looking at the table is that it no spell with anything like the sheer strength of Penance.


The PW: Solace part was mostly aimed at possible future changes. Blizzard has hinted they may make it also heal for Holy Priests in a forum post a few days ago.

As for comparisons, you obviously cannot just straight compare numbers without context. However you can clearly see Holy cannot perform well if you cannot use PoH reliably due to its restrictions (party/movement). When a spec is balanced around a very restrictive spell such as PoH compared to a fairly flexible spell such as Rejuvenation and still doesn't perform well in a spreadsheet, it cannot be particularly good in real raids.

I really appreciate your work on your spreadsheets by the way. It's really useful to have an on-the-fly option of comparing theoretical ability and talent performance for different scenarios.

#26 Hamlet

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:21 PM

Removed Divine Insight proc for Disc.
Added PW:Solace for Holy. The modeling is a little weird since currently adding an on-cooldown spell removes some cast time from fillers, so it looks it like gives you back extra mana and loses some HPS. The conclusion is the same though when you look at the combined HPS/MP5 score--slightly worse than Mindbender.
Added Binding Heal filler.

#27 Hidden

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:07 PM

Just an additional small thing that's linked to my note about Holy above:
You may want to give the option to disable rotational spell usage for some Holy spells. For most cases, PoH has higher HPS than CoH and higher HPM than CoH and some level 90 talents. Using those on cooldown drains lots of mana, especially with 4T14, you'd often spend on PoH in 25 man raids instead.

It would probably make more sense to allow the user to set an interval for those abilities even though it may clump the UI a bit.

#28 Tecton

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:58 AM

I'm updating this now, apologies for the delays (in a new position at work and free time isn't exactly plentiful!). As far as gear updates/etc for future patches it'd probably be best to have someone from the Priest community taking that over. I can give you an update on how to import gear/etc (it's very easy, just takes a bit of time).

Added:

  • Armory import (gear and enhancements) and upgrades have been added.
  • Layout tweaked to match Wrathcalcs, which will make maintenance easier going forward.
Doesn't sound like much, but took a while!

In the works:

  • Talents/Spec detection. Having some difficulty with how to handle this as so many of you guys use Holy & Disc as active specs (for obvious reasons). Probably best to just let you toggle this manually? I've ignored glyphs under the same thinking for now. We do need to standardise wording on these too (i.e. use the official talent names/glyph names in the dropdowns, but that's not a huge deal).
  • Profiles. I'll update this once things are a bit more bedded in.
  • Race detection, purely because I don't have the base values. Can someone provide a list of the base values for each race of priest?
  • Gear list. There are probably one or two things missing as I'm not as familiar with cloth drops. If you spot anything, just post up and I'll add it.
  • Speaking of which, I need to update to the new Wowhead XML layout for this sheet, it looks like it has changed slightly recently.

Please note: this is a first attempt for Priests, so there will likely be some teething issues. Please let me know if you spot anything, as I don't have a priest so won't be making as much use as I do of the Druid spreadsheets personally.

#29 Hamsda

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:34 AM

I would just add my sheet where you can find them in the "Conversions" sheet, but either I am blind, stupid or simply unable to attach a document to my post.

Well just a copy of the cells should be enough so you can import it:
Base Stats	Strength	Agility	Stamina	Intellect	Spirit
Blood elf	45	60	77	220	214
Draenei	49	55	77	217	218
Dwarf	53	54	78	216	215
Gnome	43	60	77	220	216
Goblin	45	60	77	220	214
Human	48	58	77	217	222
Night elf	44	62	77	217	216
Pandaren	48	56	78	216	218
Tauren	53	54	78	213	218
Troll	49	60	77	213	217
Undead	47	56	77	215	221
Worgen	51	60	77	213	215

Edit, I don't want to doublepost, so I hope you guys see the edit anyways:
Since your gear import already works, could you import the gear of a human priest and tell me the total spirit from base + gear vs the armory value? Because I'm not quite sure when the racial is applied, but I guess its either to the spirit on gear alone or to the base as well. Even though that wouldn't really make all that much of a difference, curiousity got the better of me and I fear I might make a silly mistake if I were to do it manually.
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#30 Szeretlek

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:55 PM

I have some nice idea for spreadsheet.
In past I modify healing spreadsheet to enter manually Overheal level to each spell, because stat scaling wont be accurate w/o these numbers.

It was something like this:
PoH 20%
DA 10%
Attonement 50%
and so on

By default all these OH numbers were set up at 0%
In all formulas about HPS or HPET I add one multiplier *(1-Spell_OH/100), where Spell_OH is number for appropriate spell.

And then stat scaling were may more close to reality.

I saw these numbers in WoL records and manually enter them in 10sec.

#31 Hamsda

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:16 PM

Very nice idea, though for disc DA will still be calculated off of the full heal.
Maybe allowing both masteries, DA and EoL, a separate overheal% would fix that? Because in my spreadsheet they are built into each individual spell...

When I looked into HolyCalcs this weekend, I didn't see anything like that, but maybe I just overlooked it: Is it possible to evaluate the T90 talents against each other?
I made a chart, considering H/CD for all three spells, depending on the distance between targets (will post it as soon as I'm home) and it showed DS to be clearly superior to the other options (of course that doesn't take into consideration the filler spells you lose due to more GCDs on DS), only overtaken by Cascade once DS cant reach its/enough targets. Halo is practically never that strong, even in 10man where it and DS are already AoE capped and Cascade could still hit 5 more targets. Considering the fact that Cascade is smart after the initial cast and halo would either require everyone to be in one spot, but then DS would overtake it, or nicely spread in a circle around the priest. The only real advantages I see are the lowest number of GCDs used and its burstiness (but that could also be a disadvantage depending on the fight).
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#32 Hamlet

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:49 PM

It's probably not a bad idea for when I do a general update for inputs to my healer sheets. Just for cleanliless, I'd probably break it down a little more loosely, maybe an overheal % for each of direct heals, smart heals, shields, and HoTs.

You can change the L90 talent in the dropdown, although this slightly affects casting ratios since they have different cooldowns. Someone pointed out earlier that that "effectiveness ratio" of each really varies (in particular I think Halo would tend to be a lot less perfect than Cascade in real use) so you should probably change that too.

#33 Hamlet

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 03:16 PM

Quick update for last night's Disc mastery changes.

Like I mentioned before, the main point of the sheet is mostly for me to have spell numbers handy that I tweak however I want for doing the sorts of comparisons reflected in what I post on the Disc thread and elsewhere. Ensuring user-friendliness isn't a huge priority yet (in some ways I got a bit ahead of myself when I posted it publicly here), but since Tecton was nice enough to do a basic item pass, anyone who wants should still be able to use it on their own with only a couple minutes of tinkering to learn how it works.

#34 Hamlet

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:44 PM

Alright, I completely lied, and here I am updating this (was looking at some Pst questions). Notes since last time:
--Removed Glyph of Smite
--Atonement spells reduced to 90% (except Solace).
--Solace heals for Holy (still have to add to tables, but accounting for around 5% of raw healing).
--Evangelism affects heal Penance (haven't updated rotation, so uses DPS penance which heals for just a bit less).

Items aren't updated however, so just have to tinker with stats manually. I've been thinking more and more that healing spreadsheets tend not to need this huge item setup overhead to answer the sorts of questions we want to answer most of the time, and I've been loath to do it every time or ask Tecton to do it. Probably more likely that I'll incorporate any detailed class info into the sort of analysis I started in this blog post:
Healing Theory, Part 4: Comparison of No-Cooldown Heals | It's Dangerous to Go Alone




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