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Mists of Pandaria 5.2.x Raid Mechanics


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#41 Seliathan

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

There's two versions of the slimed debuff, one being a DoT, which you'll only receive after intercepting the green stuff in mid-air, and one that increases damage taken by the pools/DoT by 10% each time you intercept or soak one of the pools. Last time I used it (first normalmode ID), cloak didn't remove the DoT, only the increased damage taken, but it makes sense they changed it so it would remove both.

#42 Kryptomaniac

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:02 PM

Cloak has ever since it has been implemented back in TBC removed certain debuffs while it left others ontouched, and it has almost always been able to remove debuffs that were dispellable aswell as prevent their application. This didn't seem to be intended so in Cataclysm we saw a drastic change, forcing us to use the immune-part of CoS to get a similar effect, something which has changed again in MoP. While I wholeheartedly agree that in a raid environment it (and a few other spells aswell) shouldn't be able to prevent or remove certain debuffs, it worked on quite alot of encounters in the past years and still does so today, so it is hard to argue that it isn't suppoed to work as a dispell.

In the current tier there are a whole bunch of debuffs CoS removes or prevents.

Jin'Rokh: prevents/removes Ionization, still triggers it when removing
Horridon: removes Blazing Sunlight, Venom Bolt Poison, Deadly Plague, but does NOT remove Hex of Confusion.
Council: removes Sandtrap Slow/Roots,
Megaera: removes Cinders, still triggers the ground effect
Ji-Kun: removes Slimed Debuff (only the one increasing the damage, not the DoT itself)
Animus: removes Matter Swap, still triggers the damage but also immunes the damage one himself takes (so dispelling it with only 1 second left is advisable, as the other target will only lose 10% hp that way)
Qon: removes Scorched

I may have missed some, but basically every spell that is dispellable in the current tier can be removed with cloak. In the very same way it behaved on Primordius: Unless I'm mistaken there have been two changes ever since the first PTR testing. Dispells, most noteworthy revival, used to dispell every debuff at once, which was detrimental since it removed not only the stat-altering ones, but also the full mutation. It then got changed (this one made it to the release) so dispells would remove all debuffs except for the full mutation. Sometime between friday and saturday in the first ID they hotfixed it so dispells wouldn't work at all on beneficial debuffs, and cloak followed the exact same limitations. What I'm still unsure about is whether dispells in general can still remove debuffs as long as the target isn't fully mutated, or only remove detrimental ones. I am almost certain that cloak will follow the same limitations though.


I convinced my guild to spend some time so I Can test this fully. On primordius, cloak litteraly does nothing. There was one time were it removed everything, but after looking through logs, it looks like our monk accidentally revival ed. So indeed you can't use cloak to remove negative debuffs or friendly buffs. But you can use it to immune his abilities.

So I am now 100% certain the final bit of it is, you can use cloak, but it will not affect mutation or any buffs/debuffs picked up by pools. So if you pick up a negative debuff, your screwed unless you get dispelled.

#43 Ech1zen

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:38 AM

I was testing Jin-Rokh for 2 times and i am pretty sure that if you will try to immune ionization with CoS it will wipe you raid (if you will stand in water). What you need to know that while CoS affects you, you will not going to get the ionization. It will simply miss. BUT if you will try to use it while boss is at the second half of his ionization cast you will immune it and the damage WILL be done. It could be due to the ping or something else but it does not matter. You just need to use CoS 2 second before cast starts and you won't be affected.

#44 Enzo90910

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:34 PM

You just need to use CoS 2 second before cast starts and you won't be affected.


Confirmed. You don't have to cloak-immune it, just to have cloak active at the end of his cast. On the subject of H-Jin Rokh, the fight seems tons easier for a rogue than for any other class (no Ionization thanks to CoS up each time, no Focused Lightning thanks to melee, extremely easy thunderstorm thanks to Feint+Elusiveness)

#45 Schmoopy

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:28 PM

I was testing Jin-Rokh for 2 times and i am pretty sure that if you will try to immune ionization with CoS it will wipe you raid (if you will stand in water). What you need to know that while CoS affects you, you will not going to get the ionization. It will simply miss. BUT if you will try to use it while boss is at the second half of his ionization cast you will immune it and the damage WILL be done. It could be due to the ping or something else but it does not matter. You just need to use CoS 2 second before cast starts and you won't be affected.


This is a ping issue for you. I've killed Heroic Jin'rokh twice now. If you cloak during his cast it will "cloak immune" the application of the debuff. You will not discharge your ionization into the pool and you will thusly not raid wipe. I would highly recommend this as it is a huge dps boost to be able to stay inside the pool to it's maximum. There is a reason the rankings (Rankings for Jin'rokh the Breaker in Throne of Thunder - World of Logs) are almost all rogues. (as of this post I'm still clinging to that front page!)

#46 Ech1zen

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:28 PM

And for horridon HC. Feint does work on double swipe. Without feint it deals about 330k 2 times and with feint (+ elusiveness) it does about 110k 2 times. Feint works on sand and poison zones as well.

As for ionization immune our guild members had several wipes becuase of this "issue" or something. And it was not just me but almost every class that has the same mechanic allowing them to evade aplication of ionization had expirienced the same result. So, even it indeed could be because of our ping, my point was that you shouldn't try to exactly immune it because it's very dangerous, just make sure CoS affects you when cast ends.

#47 kindath

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:32 PM

There's two versions of the slimed debuff, one being a DoT, which you'll only receive after intercepting the green stuff in mid-air, and one that increases damage taken by the pools/DoT by 10% each time you intercept or soak one of the pools. Last time I used it (first normalmode ID), cloak didn't remove the DoT, only the increased damage taken, but it makes sense they changed it so it would remove both.


Oh, I'm sorry, I've only been on the ground thus far. If you pick up a puddle on the ground, it applies a 'slimed' dot that ticks for about 15 seconds and then applies the 'slimed' debuff that increases your damage taken. Cloak will remove the dot as well as the debuff. It probably won't remove the dot when you're flying because the same debuff also increases your damage.

#48 Keorics

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:59 PM

Leeching poison is optimal for heroic tortos to keep your shield up + feint

#49 Keorics

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:00 PM

For heroic Horridon I recommend Mind numbing + dirty tricks if you're on flame caster interrupting, and if you have two rogues in your core have one use paralytic as well.

Also, depending on your groups strategy removing glyph of vendetta may be best if you need to burn adds, or if you don't get a lot of time on the boss until the final phase.

And if you're not using smoke bomb glyph(You should be for the majority of fights) it really helps for the final phase when direcall + warcry or whatever overlaps

#50 Enzo90910

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:06 PM

Leeching poison is optimal for heroic tortos to keep your shield up + feint


Leeching Poison+ Feint better than Elusiveness + Feint? Really? Anyone can confirm this?

#51 Rosvall

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:19 PM

I think I will not add in preferences and very situational tips, unless they are very helpful. Thus talent choices needs to be proven superior by either math or testing. Same with glyphs.

For example:

For heroic Horridon I recommend Mind numbing + dirty tricks if you're on flame caster interrupting, and if you have two rogues in your core have one use paralytic as well.


Will be written

-Flame casters can be affected by mind numbing poison as well as paralytic poison.


Since I feel this should be a thread to inform the player of special mechanics a rogue can take advantage of in a certain fight, while trying to not overlap with information that should be in the different spec threads.

#52 Keorics

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:38 PM

Leeching Poison+ Feint better than Elusiveness + Feint? Really? Anyone can confirm this?


Leeching poison is a lot better than elusiveness, you do not need the extra 30% reduction to keep your shield up.

Leeching will only further increase your shield size, which is significantly better.

#53 xcyteZ

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:13 AM

anybody know if glyph of deadly momentum works on Horridon's adds?

EDIT: Just tested it on Heroic. The glyph does work.

#54 Ech1zen

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:31 AM

I dont know wheter it works or not, but I suppose it won't be very usefull because it will refresh SnD and Recuperate only if you land a killing blow on the add. Moreover it's strongly recomended (by the guide on icyveins) that you should use assasination scpec. So you wont have any problem refreshing SnD in it to begin with.

#55 Kryptomaniac

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 04:28 AM

Leeching poison is a lot better than elusiveness, you do not need the extra 30% reduction to keep your shield up.

Leeching will only further increase your shield size, which is significantly better.


This is only partially correct. If your healers are doing their job correctly, leeching poison for roughly... 85% of the fight will do absolutely nothing.

But having feint + elusiveness for example, on each quake stomp youll be taking that extra 30% less, which in the end makes it easier those few times for a healer to max out your shield. I think the part your missing is yes Leeching poison may be decent in topping your shield if it DID not have a cap, but the fact that it caps out, 85% of the time your heals from leeching will do nothing. Thus, taking less of the absorb off of your shield every quake + rockfall area of affect will strongly outweight the 15% time that leeching poison will add to the shield.

Also, on top of that, leeching poison doesn't tick for that much, so 10 ticks would probbably equate to one hot from a resto druid for example. It is 100% more optimal to use elusiveness.

#56 Kryptomaniac

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 04:32 AM

Heroic Megaera:
Not much of a difference or tips you can really use.
- Cloak of shadows should be used for every rampage. (If your healers dispells are slow, it COULD be more optimal to cloak cinders, but it all depends on raid comp).
- Feint can be used on Icy Ground /w elusiveness.
- Can completely immune Icy Ground + Cinders on the ground. Not optimal, but if needed is available.
- Feint can reduce the ticks you take from cinders. Elusiveness does not affect the ticks you take.
- Can cloak all frontal cone breaths, but you should never have too.


---Info on heroic Ji-kun coming tomorrow---

#57 Kryptomaniac

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:05 AM

Heroic Ji-kun:
[N] Elusiveness reduces damage taken by Caw if hit. Unpredictable and hard to time unfortunately.

Not much to add about heroic.
[H] Can evasion / feint (elusiveness only) Talon Strike from the Nest Guardians.
[H] Can feint screech from the Nest Guardians if necessary. *elusiveness untested, will report back*

2 Tips to be added, not necessarily a mechanic. If going up for Feed buff, shadow stepping back down is great for maximizing damage. Secondly, if your in charge of soaking a vast majority of pools, it is extremely beneficial to have elusiveness, you can soak a maximum of 3 pools in a row with average healers, 4 if your healers are on top of you.

One thing to note is, the debuff gained that increases damage taken from soaking by 25% is not immediately applied, rather it is applied after the Slimed Debuff concludes, and eating a pool refreshes the 15 second dot, so if soaking large amount of pools, chain them quickly and you will take less damage overall.


---Info On Heroic Council + Durumu Coming Next Week---

#58 Rosvall

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:40 PM

Not sure if to add elusiveness on damage sources tbh, due the way it functions, it should be pretty self explanatory that it works. (Unless it makes the difference of life and death I assume).

#59 Kryptomaniac

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:14 PM

Not sure if to add elusiveness on damage sources tbh, due the way it functions, it should be pretty self explanatory that it works. (Unless it makes the difference of life and death I assume).


Ill try to note it less as its used on majority of the fights. I will indeed try to make note of it whether you need it 100%, aka you have it or you die sort of situation.

#60 Kryptomaniac

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:53 PM

Heroic Council Of Elders:
- Damage Take From Soul Fragment Can Be Cloaked And Feinted (elusiveness only)
Frost King Malakk
- Can Feint Frostbite radius damage. Can cloak, but will not prevent loss of body heat or chilled to the bone.
- Can Evasion/Feint Reckless Charge
Kazra'jin
- Can cloak/feint Discharge.
Sul The Sandcrawler
- Can cloak sand bolt, though unreliable and not really need.
High Priestess Mar'li
- Can Stun Slow Twisted Fates. Paralytic Poison DOES work.
- Cheat Death does work on Loa Spirits.




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