Jump to content


Photo

Frost DPS 5.4 - Howling Blargh


  • Please log in to reply
86 replies to this topic

#1 Mendenbarr

Mendenbarr

    Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon.

  • • Guide Author
  • 180 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:27 AM

Find the guide at http://forums.elitis...ling-blargh-r74

Edited by Mendenbarr, 29 June 2014 - 09:57 PM.

<Midwinter> - 14/14 HM -25m - LF exceptional raiders
http://www.mwguild.net/
DK Theorycrafting/Game Dev Blog
DK Gear/log reviews/audits


#2 Tyhma

Tyhma

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:03 PM

First of all, thanks for all the work you're doing here. Reading you is always interesting.

I have just one question about macroing raise dead as you're suggesting it :

#showtooltip Pillar of Frost
/use # (only for on-use items, replace ‘#’ with item slot #)
/cast Pillar of Frost
/cast Raise Dead

Assuming Raise Dead cost a GCD and that the ghoul doesn't snapshot stats anymore, shouldn't we follow the advice that suggest to cast it just before poping trinket and pof, so that the ghoul keep the benefit, but we save one GCD usable for any kind of attack that will benefit from these pof and trinkets ?

#3 Jessamy

Jessamy

    Struck by Diax's Rake

  • Moderators
  • 4,803 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:17 PM

Summoning your ghoul and then popping damage buffs off the gcd right before your next melee strike does get you an extra buffed melee gcd. This is actually the behavior used by the default simulationcraft profiles, and is a small but measurable damage increase. A macro like the ghoul macro you're questioning is intended to make things easier and clean up action bars for those who aren't optimizing their play quite that much.

#4 fangless

fangless

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 34 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 04:28 PM

Are these things still up to date;


DMF trinket still one of the BiS for DW? There were sims in the last Frost thread that put the Vortex (2/2) ahead by 500 dps or so?

Races; is Goblin still BiS? Sims I've done in ilvl506, Troll/Orc should both be ahead especially with the new tier having a few beast related bosses/boss adds.

Stat weights, I have haste coming out ahead, for DW, up to about 7900 or so, where it becomes even and then Mastery is the stat to go to.


#5 Mendenbarr

Mendenbarr

    Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon.

  • • Guide Author
  • 180 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:25 PM

Assuming Raise Dead cost a GCD and that the ghoul doesn't snapshot stats anymore, shouldn't we follow the advice that suggest to cast it just before poping trinket and pof, so that the ghoul keep the benefit, but we save one GCD usable for any kind of attack that will benefit from these pof and trinkets ?

As Jessamy pointed out, it's a small gain, but a gain nonetheless. I'm going to leave this guide alone in that regard, as it's more aimed at a simpler playstyle, but I'll add a note into my advanced guide.




Are these things still up to date;

DMF trinket still one of the BiS for DW? There were sims in the last Frost thread that put the Vortex (2/2) ahead by 500 dps or so?

Races; is Goblin still BiS? Sims I've done in ilvl506, Troll/Orc should both be ahead especially with the new tier having a few beast related bosses/boss adds.

Stat weights, I have haste coming out ahead, for DW, up to about 7900 or so, where it becomes even and then Mastery is the stat to go to.


While, in sims, vortex creeps up to being slightly higher, in practice, a good portion of the benefit of the proc is lost due to overcapping. Haste procs on a spec that is all but GCD capped without the extra haste are rarely optimal. RoX and LSFO also line up with each other. Keep in mind sims play with perfect skill and 0 latency, which hides the damage of being GCD capped a bit. Also, as Jessamy reminds me, sims don't use AMS to get extra runic, which takes up extra GCDs you won't have with DMV.

As stated in the section, it's a very rough best to worst list, and whether or not you benefit from weapon expertise racials, as well as being DW/2-hand, change around the exact order of the races. IIRC, there are only 4 beast bosses out of 12 in throne of thunder. However, I will take another look at races and try to revamp the section a bit.


Stat weights were simmed with 510-10 of simcraft, using default 509 profiles, yesterday. Don't get much fresher results then that. Haste and mastery have a little dance where one jumps ahead of the other depending on the amount of the other, as well as crit and AP, but that's why it's suggested to run your own sims for your own values, the ones listed are right for 509 gear.

#6 Jessamy

Jessamy

    Struck by Diax's Rake

  • Moderators
  • 4,803 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:38 PM

This post has been promoted to an article

#7 fangless

fangless

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 34 posts

Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:45 PM

This is the results I get when I sim out the stats for DW, using my own gear, 507ilvl; Bloodtap/Unholy Blight.
Parkwayy @ Arthas - Community - World of Warcraft

Spoiler


Using the Reforge plotting, I got to the point where Haste is just ahead of Mastery, about 8000 Haste and 3700 Mastery. The reforge plotting points to me that if I lower Haste for Mastery, it's a loss;

Spoiler



Am I missing something? I don't see Mastery ahead at all, definitely not by the large margin shown in the stat weight section. Maybe if there are multiple targets, but the fights in which that happens (in 5.1 at least) are few in number.

#8 huntcaudata

huntcaudata

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 137 posts

Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:27 PM

This is the results I get when I sim out the stats for DW, using my own gear, 507ilvl; Bloodtap/Unholy Blight.

Am I missing something? I don't see Mastery ahead at all, definitely not by the large margin shown in the stat weight section. Maybe if there are multiple targets, but the fights in which that happens (in 5.1 at least) are few in number.


You are missing the fact that you're a goblin, you're using Unholy Blight, and you have double upgraded weapons but otherwise non-BiS gear. Everyone is going to get different results for stat rankings, that's why we constantly implore people to run their own sims rather than taking one number as gospel.

As for your specifics - if you just switch to Plague Leech you'd see rankings very similar to the op (I just checked with your character). And, even if you stick with Unholy Blight, your assertion that multi-target fights are "few in number" doesn't really make any sense to me.

Zorlok - no adds but substantial downtime or time spent at range during double attentuation in phase 2 de-values haste.
Garalon - Tons of cleave, obvious advantage to mastery
Wind Lord - Tons of AOE
Amber Shaper - Tons of cleave opportunities
Empress - Half the fight is Cleave/AOE.

Protectors - Cleave on Corrupted Waters
Tsulong - Tons of aoe on adds
Sha - Hello?

The above, coupled with the fact that sims don't account for AMS soaking or different timing of BL, means that even with your your current stat-weights, I would value mastery above haste.

#9 fangless

fangless

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 34 posts

Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:10 PM

I will give a shot at looking at the numbers for PL.

As far as the cleave thing, so many of those situations are situations where the AE damage is not the determining factor of the fight, except maybe Sha.

Zorlok, besides that we're just horrible at this fight with no AMS soaking available, the downtime is minimal and maybe a few seconds of the entire fight?
Garalon is valid, sure.
Wind Lord, the add damage should really be your last concern. Just padding numbers at that point.
Amber Shaper is 50/50. Phase 1, our guild basically holds dps because there's too much chance to push the boss over, or kill a tank construct way too fast. Phase 2 doing direct damage on the Monstrosity is getting us into p3 faster, the slimes only spawn so fast. How fast we kill them is largely irrelevant.
Empress does have some cleave, but I wouldn't say those phases, especially when most of the adds are running around or you are when fixated is weighted more than the first phase (done twice) and all of phase 3.

Protectors I could side with Mastery but not because you cleave onto a single orb for a few seconds every so often. The buff you get from killing it, along with a SR proc if you do it right, means you're getting a lot of regen/KM procs. Still, killing the final guy is the roughest part (along with killing shas when your group is up), which is single target.
Tsulong, I wouldn't considering the fright spawns to be the key factor of the fight, and dark of night spawns can be too spread out to worry about or you can get lucky and they can be grouped up, but I would wager your ranged dot team should be focusing these.
Sha, ok fine, I did say there were a few. And this is a fight I swap to Mastery for.


Honestly though, the fights where AE is available, those situations aren't usually the ones that will wipe you. Rather optimize for the parts where the DPS actually matters.


edit:
/ran sims to see how PL turns up -- that would explain the difference in the two situations with weights.
Suggestion: add info for both talent choices and their stat weights

#10 Mendenbarr

Mendenbarr

    Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon.

  • • Guide Author
  • 180 posts

Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:51 PM

The reason PL devalues haste from what you're seeing with UB is because it adds a GCD into our rotation, which is close to the GCD gap as is. Haste makes it even tighter, more abilities to spend in a given amount of time, which is why the closer you get to being GCD capped, the less haste is worth.
I agree that you should gear for parts of a fight where the dps actually matters, but in reality, due to not being able to hit the boss for even half a second, and AMS giving you a ton of runic every 45 seconds, haste is devalued below mastery in gameplay, despite what the sims say. Huntcaudata did mention AMS soaking, which is actually the biggest discrepancy between live results and sims.
I'm actually working with the simcraft team to get AMS soaking added in, to more clearly demonstrate this, but for the time being, this thread will continue to advise mastery > haste for DW.

#11 Revanchism

Revanchism

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:07 PM

Mastery is definitely ahead of Haste as DW. It's not just AMS either that helps do this. The sheer amount of add fights only furthers the value of mastery due to Howling Blast and Frost Fever. Using your own logs and seeing just how much damage you do with your frost related attacks on a given encounter should give you an idea just how strong it is. It also comes down to how you line up your CD's. Rarely does haste matter for me in these situations. I remove it from the equation.

Relying on simulations to determine your build over personal logs and experience on specific encounters is never advisable. It's like a professional athlete basing how they play on practice tape over game tape. Baring a faceroll fight with minimal mechanics, chaos often overtakes controlled situations.

#12 fangless

fangless

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 34 posts

Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:06 PM

Relying on simulations to determine your build over personal logs and experience on specific encounters is never advisable. It's like a professional athlete basing how they play on practice tape over game tape. Baring a faceroll fight with minimal mechanics, chaos often overtakes controlled situations.


Which is fair, but I justified it in the post above, in regards to the "there are add fights in 5.1" notion. Supercleave damage, while we're good at it, is largely never the determining factor in a fight. That remains to be seen while we progress in 5.2, at least. It seems mostly that PL is the determining factor though, that pushes it over. So, that helps me figure out what I was missing, and I'm gonna try to hop on the PL train and get used to using it.



Is there any chance the Soul Reaper change to have interaction with Killing Machine will add in a condition to hold onto it until you get a KM Proc (instead of SR use on cooldown)? That was the one thing in the latest SimC build that would change as far as priority model, and makes me nervous that the T15 bis charts with us in the gutter seem fairly plausible.

Though, I did see one of the code commits was an AMS introduction, but I hope that isn't expected for us to do well in a fight.

#13 Mendenbarr

Mendenbarr

    Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon.

  • • Guide Author
  • 180 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:27 AM

placeholder

#14 Revanchism

Revanchism

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:07 PM

Which is fair, but I justified it in the post above, in regards to the "there are add fights in 5.1" notion. Supercleave damage, while we're good at it, is largely never the determining factor in a fight. That remains to be seen while we progress in 5.2, at least. It seems mostly that PL is the determining factor though, that pushes it over. So, that helps me figure out what I was missing, and I'm gonna try to hop on the PL train and get used to using it.



Is there any chance the Soul Reaper change to have interaction with Killing Machine will add in a condition to hold onto it until you get a KM Proc (instead of SR use on cooldown)? That was the one thing in the latest SimC build that would change as far as priority model, and makes me nervous that the T15 bis charts with us in the gutter seem fairly plausible.

Though, I did see one of the code commits was an AMS introduction, but I hope that isn't expected for us to do well in a fight.


I'd definitely get used to using PL. Especially if you're getting symbiosis. That said, I find UB to be favorable over it on some encounters since it gives us an extra GCD for AOE. As for holding SR for KM over FS. Don't forget that a FS crit still hits pretty damn hard. Also, by holding a KM for SR you could be potentially overlapping KM procs which would cost you a crit FS and is thus a DPS loss. In an ideal world you would use KM on SR, but I'm thinking if anything, you'll be holding off a FS to use a fresh KM on SR as long as it's a second from coming off CD. I wouldn't wait to use SR for KM though, again because of the overlapping issue. Too much reliance on RNG for that. The 10% melee haste buff we gained should help smooth things out a bit.

#15 lilucky136

lilucky136

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:29 AM

What kind of gear do you need for the spark and rage trinket to actually sim higher then the 5.0 trinkets?

Because currently the 5.2 trinkets sim lower then the 5.0 trinkets

#16 forecore

forecore

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:46 AM

i noticed the same thing as i wanted to replace with . Despite "fun" procs the new trinkets all seem pretty bad from a pure dps point of view.

#17 Mendenbarr

Mendenbarr

    Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon.

  • • Guide Author
  • 180 posts

Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:58 AM

I'm also finding that spark normal mode is worse than relic, which is sad considering how massive the ilevel jump is. I'm working on a full trinket writeup, should be done in a few days.

Edit: Simcraft is using rppm based of truehaste, as explained by GC, while in-game it still seems to use attack speed, meaning basically that it has a 10% higher uptime than simmed.

#18 lilucky136

lilucky136

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:09 AM

Atleast for 2h in BiS gear the darkmist + lei shen +8, appears to be equiv dps to the spark + rage.

Wasted a token to get the thunderforged spark to find out its bad haha.

#19 lichdawg

lichdawg

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 46 posts

Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:34 AM

I have been testing the spark, albeit in unholy spec. It took over 4 minutes of bashing the boss dummy to get the 10 procs. This trinket is not worth in its current state and unless the proc rate is increased I don't see how it can possibly stay in the bis list. I will be testing further today and will post details on proc rates.

#20 Mendenbarr

Mendenbarr

    Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon.

  • • Guide Author
  • 180 posts

Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:00 PM

Spark of Zandalar is not as bad as it seems. Simcraft reports the following up-times at various haste levels:
These sims are done fully raid buffed, in normal presences, with lust, and in the case of unholy, unholy frenzy.

[TABLE] Spec | Haste | Uptime
Frost 2-hand | 15000 | 21.25%
Frost 2-hand | 10000 | 19.03%
Frost DW | 8500 | 18.55%
Frost DW | 5500 | 17.13%
Unholy | 15000 | 25.76%
Unholy | 10000 | 23.17%
[/TABLE]


However, reports from the small number of people with the trinket indicate it has a significantly higher uptime in reality then the one being simmed. I *believe* that this is because the game does not yet use the truehaste system described by GC here, but there is only so much testing I can do by myself.

Please, if you have the trinket, or any rppm str trinket, go out and test it, and describe the testing as best you can to me, including duration, procs, trinket, uptime, haste level, and whether or not you used berserking, unholy frenzy, lust, darkmist vortex, or any other haste short term buff.

Edit: I've submitted a bug report here, if you want to post your results there.


Edit 2: Thanks to some information from Zoyt, we know that the trinket's tooltip is wrong, while it says 1333 strength in-game, and on the wowhead page, and 770 while mousing over, it actually gives 1600 str. I have someone testing the rage trinket as we speak, if anyone has the gaze of the twins trinket, please contact me in #acherus, or via PM/battletag, so we can test out if the proc is accurate.

Edit 3: Spark trinket has accurate tooltip.
Edit 4: Rage also has accurate tooltip. Looks like it's just feather that was stealth buffed.

Edit 5: Still need testing on rppm trinkets. PM me your logs!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users