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Frost DPS 5.4 - Howling Blargh


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#61 Muram

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:03 PM

Any advice on how to handle synapse springs after the Galakras trinket unsyncs the CD on Pillar? Is it better to continue using them independently, or delay springs every time until POF is ready

#62 Jeges

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 02:01 AM

Lining them up with Pillar boosts their effect by 20%. Delaying them (assuming 553 ilvl trinket, upgraded twice) gives you Springs every 84.5 seconds, a 29% drop in utility. 1.2*0.71 = 0.85. Not worth it.

It makes the upgraded heroic warforged trinket quite nice, though, with its even 50% increase. All CDs are reduced by an even 1/3, making it much easier to line them up (at least sometimes) with other things that aren't reduced.

#63 IcedCoffee

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:04 PM

Has anyone experimented with Fusion-Fire Core for AoE situations? I imagine that a different rotation might make sense. I'm thinking in the context of 2h frost with, say, 5 mobs. Might it be advantageous to maintain a single target rotation to maximize cleave damage?

#64 Grakey

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:51 PM

Does anyone know how simcraft uses killing machine procs? Does it always use them for obliterates, or is it sometimes forced to use them on a frost strike, more like a real life situation?

Edit: I'm speaking specifically of 2H frost.

#65 Jeges

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:18 AM

Fusion-Fire Core can proc off of AoE effects (and diseases). Since each additional target has a 3% chance of replicating damage done to it to *all* nearby targets, this trinket grows in strength supra-linearly with the number of targets (minus one). With two targets, AoE effects have a 6% chance to be at least doubled, and single-target effects have a 3% chance to be doubled. With three targets, AoE effects have a 9% chance to be at least doubled, and single-target attacks have a 3% chance to be tripled. Et cetera. Operative word there is "at least", because you might get more than one proc on an AoE attack. This means that any AoE move that is worth doing without the trinket is more worth doing with it.

At some number of targets and some duration of their uptime (depending on your stats) it even becomes worthwhile, with this trinket, to Pestilence/Rolling Blood Blood Plague onto all the targets.

#66 Hackebiff

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 07:28 PM

I'm currently playing 2h-frost and been searching for the haste-cap to aim for before reforging full crit but I haven't seen any hard numbers. I assume some haste is needed (even if haste is last in the stat-prio) since 3 out of 5 haste-items in the BiS-list are not haste-reforged.

 

Since the haste-cap is the same regardless if you have full hc-warforged gear or full normal gear, atleast that's what I think it is, I used the BiS-gear and how much haste that will give me.

If you upgrade all haste-items and reforge according to BiS-list above that would give me 5512 haste from items and without the VP-upgrade 5098 haste.

 

Are my assumptions correct? Should I be reforing for just above 5k haste to make sure I get maximized haste without getting overcapped?

 

Thanks for being a great source of information for the DK-class!


Edited by Hackebiff, 26 October 2013 - 07:28 PM.


#67 duck69a

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:39 PM

Just a comment on the profession section, wouldn't a blacksmith allow you to socket two secondary stat gems (rather than strength) making this a slightly stronger choice. I realize the difference is very small, but it does exist

#68 Esturion

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 02:08 PM

On the 2h BiS list shouldnt the legs and the ring (seal of the forgotten kings) be reforged from haste to mastery?



#69 Thels

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:30 PM

Just a comment on the profession section, wouldn't a blacksmith allow you to socket two secondary stat gems (rather than strength) making this a slightly stronger choice. I realize the difference is very small, but it does exist

 

Yes, it does. Blacksmith is already a strong choice due to it's versility. Engineering might still be a better choice.

 

Note that this makes Jewelcrafting a poorer choice, as you need to use Strength gems to get the Strength bonus. If you use a Secondary Stat gem, you only get half the bonus.

 

To clarify, assume Mastery is your best secondary stat, and it has a value of 0.6, while strength has a value of 1.0, for ease of calculating.

 

Any profession unrelated to gems that grants 320 strength = 320 value. (Norm.)

 

Blacksmithing using strength gems grants 320 strength = 320 value. (Norm.)

 

Blacksmithing using mastery gems grants 640 mastery = 384 value. (Above norm!)

 

Jewelcrafting using JC strength gems instead of mastery gems grants 640 strength = 640 value instead of 640 mastery = 384 value for a gain of 256 value. (Below norm!)

 

Jewelcrafting using JC strength gems instead of strength/mastery gems grants 640 strength = 640 value instead of 160 strength + 320 mastery = 160 + 192 value = 352 value for a gain of 288 value. (Below norm!)

 

Jewelcrafting using JC mastery gems instead of mastery gems grants 960 mastery = 576 value instead of 640 mastery = 384 value for a gain of 192 value. (Below norm!)

 

Jewelcrafting using JC mastery gems instead of strength/mastery gems grants 960 mastery = 576 value instead of 160 strength + 320 mastery = 160 + 192 value = 352 value for a gain of 224 value. (Below norm!)

 

 

 

Blacksmithing is good, since it increases your options, while Jewelcrafting is bad, since it limits your options.

 

With Jewelcrafting, the best choice depends on the itemization score of your secondary stat, normalized to strength.

 

If your best secondary stat is worth less than 0.666 times your strength, you always use 2x JC strength gems, preferably in red sockets where you are going for the socket bonus, but if you do not have such socket, any prismatic socket or socket where you are not going for the socket bonus will do.

 

If your best secondary stat is worth in between 0.666 and 0.75 times your strength, you use up to 2x JC strength gems in red sockets where you are going for the socket bonus. If you do not have 2 such sockets, you use your remaining JC gems as JC secondary stat gems.

 

If your best secondary stat is worth more than 0.75 times your strength, you always use 2x JC secondary gems, and use strength/secondary gems for the red sockets where you want the socket bonus.



#70 Grimmrock

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 07:03 PM

Greetings

 

Since we will have more KM procs with the recent hotfix, it would seem crit has lost some value but im wondering how much it has fallen?



#71 Lamperouqe

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:02 AM



Greetings

 

Since we will have more KM procs with the recent hotfix, it would seem crit has lost some value but im wondering how much it has fallen?

Mendenbarr made a detailed post about the recent hotfix and how it affects statweights on his blog. To answer your question crit has fallen a bit but not enough for haste to overtake it even on a 4k haste profile.



#72 Thels

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 01:27 PM

About the DW priority list:

 

Howling Blastwith both frost or both death off cooldown

Soul Reaper when target below 35%

 

Since Soul Reaper also consumes frost/death runes, shouldn't Soul Reaper be placed above Howling Blast here? Soul Reaper is better than Howling Blast (or it would never be included in the rotation in the first place), so if we need to burn frost or death runes, and we can choose between Howling Blast and Soul Reaper, wouldn't Soul Reaper be the more senseful choice?



#73 Jessamy

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 06:22 AM

Since Soul Reaper also consumes frost/death runes, shouldn't Soul Reaper be placed above Howling Blast here? Soul Reaper is better than Howling Blast (or it would never be included in the rotation in the first place), so if we need to burn frost or death runes, and we can choose between Howling Blast and Soul Reaper, wouldn't Soul Reaper be the more senseful choice?


First, the Soul Reaper priority condition doesn't have the same restrictions as the Howling Blast condition does. According to that priority, if both frost runes or both death runes are off cooldown, you should use HB. If one rune is off cooldown and one is on cooldown, and target is below 35% (or will be in 5 seconds), you should use SR. Your rune state affects your priority decisions.

Second, that's the old "mastercomplicated" DW frost priority. Mendenbarr has shown that with high mastery attainable with T16 gear, "mastersimple" is a higher dps priority. Mastersimple removes Soul Reaper and Obliterate from the action list and never uses those abilities. Always use HB instead of SR, even below 35%, and always use Death and Decay or Plague Strike instead of Obliterate, even if you have two unholy runes available.

#74 Thels

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 09:48 AM

Ah, I should Sim my char with both rotations and see which one's better for my gear.

 

Still, for the "mastercomplicated" rotation, If Soul Reaper is providing more DPS than Howling Blast, then there is no reason NOT to place Soul Reaper there above Howling Blast.

 

We're using Howling Blast at 2 frost or 2 blood runes to consume a frost or blood rune, so that rune will start recharging. However, Soul Reaper consumes the exact same runes as Howling Blast, so if we're at the situation where we're capped on either frost or blood runes, it doesn't matter if we press Howling Blast or Soul Reaper for rune consumption. If Soul Reaper does more damage than Howling Blast, it should be placed above Howling Blast, not below it.

 

Of course, if Soul Reaper deals less damage than Howling Blast, there is little point including it.



#75 Lamperouqe

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 06:17 PM



First, the Soul Reaper priority condition doesn't have the same restrictions as the Howling Blast condition does. According to that priority, if both frost runes or both death runes are off cooldown, you should use HB. If one rune is off cooldown and one is on cooldown, and target is below 35% (or will be in 5 seconds), you should use SR. Your rune state affects your priority decisions.

No, in this case it's a simple mistake in the priority. There's no benefit in using HB when a rune pair caps over SR, which (generally) does more damage. Both abilities accomplish the same thing by putting the capped rune on cooldown, so the additional condition on the HB line becomes meaningless when comparing the two actions.



Second, that's the old "mastercomplicated" DW frost priority. Mendenbarr has shown that with high mastery attainable with T16 gear, "mastersimple" is a higher dps priority. Mastersimple removes Soul Reaper and Obliterate from the action list and never uses those abilities. Always use HB instead of SR, even below 35%, and always use Death and Decay or Plague Strike instead of Obliterate, even if you have two unholy runes available.

Rather than dropping SR from your priority altogether I would recommend using the SR vs. HB mod in DKDiseases. I've configured it so that whenever my target is below 35% and my HB would hit harder than SR it shows a HB icon on my screen. Very easy to follow, albeit not very useful unless you are in heroic gear.


Edited by Lamperouqe, 02 February 2014 - 06:22 PM.


#76 Asquarath

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:56 AM

Greetings ! This is my first post in this Forum and i hope u all understand me, cause me English is not the best.

 

I Play DW Frost and i read the Mastersimple and Mastercomplicated(same like Mastersimple but with SR, right?) Rotation on Mendenbarrs Blog. Now i have some Questions:

 

1.) How much mastery should i have that Mastersimple is better then Mastercomlicated?

 

2.) How much Haste should i have for DW Frost in both Rotations? Cause i made i gear full with Mastery and Crit and AskMrRobot says i Need Haste, he reforge the most into haste (19% haste and only 14,25% Crit).

 

3.) Is it better to take full Mastery Gear or T16 4 Piece Boni? I actually Play with Legplates of Willful Doom, Breastplate of Shamanic Mirrors and Zoids Molten Guantlets instead of T16 Pieces.


Edited by Asquarath, 04 February 2014 - 05:44 PM.


#77 Jessamy

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 06:59 PM

There are two big differences between the rotations (mastersimple removes Obliterate and Soul Reaper completely) and a few smaller differences (abilities that restore resources like ERW and PL, and abilities that use unholy runes like PS and DnD are moved the the end of the priority).

 

For both rotations you want as little haste as possible.  Choose gear without haste if you can, and reforge out of any haste you can't avoid.  While Ask Mr. Robot is a fantastic tool, its biggest weakness is its default stat weights.  Sometimes they are very wrong, as in this case.*  But even when they're right, they're tuned for some generalized character other than your own.  If you use simulationcraft to input your own weights, the Mr Robot tool becomes even better.

 

* Some time in late T15, the DK community discovered an oversight in our theorycrafting that was causing the sim to overvalue haste for all specs.  So if Mr. Robot is telling you to choose haste gear as DW Frost, it's not for no good reason.  It's just using old information, and we have better data now.



#78 Lopert

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:24 PM

Greetings everyone,

 

One quick question; Its been a couple of months since I ran a SIMC profile so I ran one today with the newest update and much to my surprise it weighs Haste very high.

 

STR       5.59

Crit         3.06

HASTE   8.54

MAST     3.23

 

I am running DW and doing Mastersimple. My gear hasnt changed much in two months, I added a normal ring over a flex one is about it. (although I have the mastery sword equipped instead of my normal Skullcleaver both are same iLVL) Has something changed recently?



#79 Asquarath

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:30 PM

Thx for the Answer, but still missing 2 Answers. How much Mastery i Need for Mastersimple > Mastercomplicated and is T16 4 Set-Boni better then pure Mastery/crit Items?



#80 Angelhearth

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:00 PM

This article talks about "realistic sims" and I would like to know if SimulationCraft (I'm using 547-2) is among them. The reason is that I have been given a somewhat crazy stat weight. Sadly I can't upload the results from SimCraft, since they are above the limit, even packed.

 

Character: Angelhearth, EU-Runetotem

 

This problem started when I wanted to check the difference between Pauldrons of Cyclopean Dead, 528+0 and Darkfallen Shoulderplates, 559+8.

I noticed, both by practicing on a dummy and running SimCraft, that the 4-set bonus far outweighed the 567 Darkfallen Shoulderplates (no, iLvl is NOT everything). But when I equiped them and ran the simulaion,  I got this surprise:

 

MH DPS 7.32

OH DPS 3.65

Hit 5.79

Exp 5.63

Str 5.51

HASTE 3.05

Mastery 2.89

Crit 2.35

AP 1.99

 

If this is correct and I follow Ask Mr. Robot's suggestion my haste would be 26.26%, up 19.94%, mastery 56.55%, down 18.66%, crit 17.26%, down 6.16%. I ran this all the way up to 250,000 iterations.

I have been told that you can't trust SimCraft when it comes to DK's, but trying to get an answer by submitting a "bug-report" on their official site, I'm just told that what I talk about is without interst. I have tried to post this on the forum, but it gets moved to the "big bag of garbage" where you never get any answers anyway, but since this article talks about simulations, I figure, me asking about it should be valid.






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