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[Prot] 5.3 - Same Man I was Before


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#21 bromli

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:34 AM

the timing involved in using a haste build is more closely related to good situational awareness. It's about making good choices for using SotR based on things like incoming healing, upcoming healer disables or distractions, and recent high damage periods. If you know that enough heals are landing in the next second or so to top you all the way off, you don't need to use SotR - if you know you're not getting any heals at all for 5 seconds as everyone repositions, you really should be using it. If heavy raid damage has just gone out, getting SotR up might allow your healers to crossheal just a little bit more. That kind of awareness will help you out regardless of what gearing strategy you use, but the argument is Control/Haste setup disproportionately benefits the people who make use of SotR most strategically, simply because it affords them more opportunities to do so.

If your situational awareness is somewhat less than perfect, Control/Haste is probably not the ideal setup for you, because errors will be more costly.


This makes sense. Of course, a mastery build would make those good choices even more effective. Haste would create more opportunities, and also help to cover mistakes.

edit: I didn't notice the "let's drop it" part of wrathblood's post. Feel free to delete.

#22 promdates

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:26 AM

Not sure if anyone tested it on the PTR, but you are unable to track the 2P bonus from the T15 set. Combat log doesn't show any kind of buff or gain, but your block value goes up 40%.
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#23 Demosethenes

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 05:31 PM

Are there hard numbers on the actual dps difference between Control/Haste and Control/Mastery? I haven't been able to find them and knowing how much dps I'm giving up for more survivability (Which isn't really an issue) would make my decision much easier.

#24 Wrathblood

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 08:49 PM

Well, there's a couple ways of looking at it. Over on Maintankadin, assuming Hit/Exp capped and 150k Vengeance, Theck puts the difference between Mastery's dps contribution per itemization point (which is roughly zero. Basically all it gives you is a chance of additional Alabaster Shield procs) and Haste's at about 2.5 dps per itemization point.

In the sim, assuming ilevel 522 gear, the difference between Control-Haste and Control-Mastery is about 12k itemization moving from one to the other. So, setting aside talents and with Focused Shield as the only glyph (to prevent cleaves overweighting things toward AS), the base case (which is heavy haste, but not as heavy as the Control-Haste set) gives about 130k dps. Ballpark, I'd guess the the Control-Haste build is around 140k while the Control-Mastery build is around 110k. Anyway, about 30k dps.

For real fun, the Mastery/Avoidance build drops that 110k down to about 80-85k.

But its fairly Vengeance dependent. If you've only got 75k Vengeance instead of 150k, then its more like 1.5 dps per itemization point, so you'd lose more like 18k dps instead of 30k dps.

On the one hand, there are caveats to this, what if its an AoE situation? Fight mechanics? We already mentioned Vengeance, etc. Fortunately, its pretty easy to do napkin math. Since almost all our stuff scales linearly with Haste, you can kinda just ballpark it by looking at your character sheet.

How much damage do you do on Fight X with a Control/Mastery build? Lets say its 105k for easy math. How much Mastery are you turning into Haste? You can then either look up the amount of the % chance on your character sheet or just divide the Haste you gain by 425 (which is how much Haste it takes to get 1%). Lets say you go from 5% Haste to 15% Haste. Divide your current dps by 1.05 (1 + the amount of Haste you currently have, we're equalizing it out), which gets you down to 100k. Then multiply by 1+ new Haste (so, 1.15), which takes you up to 115K. So you'd be swapping over ~4250 itemization points and you end up gaining 10k dps. Its nice that it happens to be close to the 2.5 number, but I just made these numbers up on the spot so I wouldn't read too much into that.

#25 Wrathblood

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:35 PM

Theck's got an interesting new post up here: Control Shift En-tier | Sacred Duty

He looks at a couple interesting things. The bigger one being that he's figured out a way to model tanks using ShoR in response to spikes rather than just shotgunning them which I think is probably a better representation of how tanks use ShoR. He does it a couple different ways and the impact on spike suppression is substantial.

The other part he looks at is the t15 2 piece buff and whether its worth maintaining. Its value depends on a few things (overheal% on your WoGs probably being the biggest) and he seems to think its probably not worth keeping up, though I see it somewhat more positively. A noteworthy additional drawback is that casting all those WoGs will dent your dps by 5-10%, but in times when survivability is at a premium its probably worth it.

#26 Wrathblood

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:08 PM

New work from Theck incorporating Sacred Shield into his sim which is really good for Haste (and he doesn't even include the interaction with SoI which is also good for Haste). Is Nothing Sacred? | Sacred Duty

Conveniently, it simplifies our gearing options:

Approved Gearing Strategies:

Standard Duty Tanking: Control/Haste (cap Hit and Exp, dump everything else into Haste, add Stam as needed)
AoE or Maximum survival Tanking: Pure Avoidance (don't bother with Hit and Exp, throw everything into Avoidance. If you have to add another stat, go with Mastery or Hit)
Heroic Sha Tanking (life threatening hit every 8-10 seconds): Pure Mastery

That's it. Control/Mastery simply isn't competitive.

#27 Theck

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:09 PM

I'd still consider using Control/Mastery for heroic sha, just on the off-chance that you manage to miss several CS/J in a row and can't make the 3-HP in 8-seconds benchmark. I know a lot of tanks did drop hit/exp for that fight, but when you're pushing 60% mitigation on SotR another 5-6% probably isn't worth it unless it's absolutely required meet the mitigation check (assuming you can't eliminate the entire 7650 rating worth of hit/exp).

#28 ewb

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

Does any of the new information change the viability of your dodge/parry macro?

#29 Periad

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:40 PM

I don't understand why the balance gearing strategy is balanced across all four stats, this is not a strategy that would be used in the real world.

A real world balancing strategy would be haste to 5618, then mastery, ignore parry and dodge.

This would provide the breakpoint for 9 tick sacred shields during bloodlust, 7 tick sacred shields outside of bloodlust.

I'd suggest a more realistic execution would be haste 5618, mastery 7882, parry 1500, dodge 1500.

Using the haste breakpoints on the sacred shield table and the stat weights in the simulations on the blog this should give the same results for sacred shield absorption as C/Ha, whilst also reducing the mean damage taken as per standard understanding of mastery.

Unless I have missed the memo and sacred shield now works differently.

#30 Nooska

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:46 AM

Breakpoints on Sacred Shield are meaningless for Prot, as there is time to keep it up, and the shield then rolls, each point of haste is worth the same as the previous one.
Further the balanced gearing strategy is a representation of "wear what drops", more than a conscious choice - if I should point to one gearing strategy that hasn't been dataed out, it would be hit/exp to cap, then equal haste/mastery (or as good as equal), due to the synergy between better ShoR and more ShoR.

#31 Periad

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:01 PM

Hmm I was under the impression that whilst the buff rolls haste still only affects the number of shields you would receive during the time period as it still uses the old HOT refresh system?

I expect almost all tanks to have a weakaura/poweraura set up for the sacred shield buff with an alert when it is <5s remaining thereby ensuring as close to 100% uptime as possible. Consider a 300s fight, with 0 haste you would receive 6 shields every 30s, let's say each absorbs 50K, for a total absorb of 3,000K. with 5335 (next breakpoint without bloodlust) to 12687 haste you would receive 7 shields every 30s for a total absorb of 3,500K, 12688 to 20052 would equate to 4,000K and so on for each extra tick per 30s you were able to achieve.

I suspect I've misunderstood a mechanic.

I see regarding C/Bal, makes more sense.

edit: Performed some research on WOL for a few of the paladins in this thread:

Uptime 626.75, 139 shields, 6.65 shields / 30s, haste 5700
Uptime 575.6, 129 shields, 6.72 shields / 30s, haste unknown as user logged in ret gear, est. 6150 (user was Theck I'm sure he could clarify)
Uptime 625.6, 148 shields, 7.10 shields / 30s, haste 8500
Uptime 452.2, 95 shields, 6.30 shields / 30s, haste 3345

So it looks like I've definitely misunderstood it. Refreshes under bloodlust not taken into account however. Nor can I check actual haste rating during fight.

#32 Theck

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:35 AM

Does any of the new information change the viability of your dodge/parry macro?


It doesn't change the formula in the macro, but the macro has been mostly irrelevant since MoP dropped anyway. There's no point in trying to reforge to balance dodge and parry DR when you're better off reforging to haste or mastery anyway.

I don't understand why the balance gearing strategy is balanced across all four stats, this is not a strategy that would be used in the real world.

As Nooska said, this is more of a "making do with what drops" gear set. The concept being that many of us will make do with poorly-itemized pieces that are large ilvl upgrades (even 509 -> 522 is a pretty big stam/armor/stat upgrade, and many players are making 496->522 upgrades).

Hmm I was under the impression that whilst the buff rolls haste still only affects the number of shields you would receive during the time period as it still uses the old HOT refresh system?

So it looks like I've definitely misunderstood it. Refreshes under bloodlust not taken into account however. Nor can I check actual haste rating during fight.

Sacred Shield uses the standard DoT/HoT system for haste scaling. As your haste increases the time between ticks decreases, and at certain breakpoints you gain an additional tick to keep the total duration within +/- half a tick duration of the unhasted total duration (in this case, within +/- 3 seconds of 30s). The mathematical description for this is detailed in this blog post if you want more detail.

The reason breakpoints aren't very meaningful to us is that we're regularly refreshing Sacred Shield before it expires, often many ticks before it's about to expire (because SS in an empty GCD is still a net DPS gain compared to leaving the GCD empty and having to refresh again later, potentially pushing something else back). As a result, that haste breakpoint mostly just shifts our GCDs around a little bit. We may refresh it one GCD later, for example, compared to just before the breakpoint, but not all of the time. Overall it doesn't buy us that many more GCDs or that much DPS, so it's generally a small effect. It's much more linear scaling whenever you're maintaining 100% uptime.

This is slightly less true for other classes, depending on situation. For example, my understanding of affliction locks is that the breakpoints are sort of meaningless. You're refreshing very early with affliction, so it just shifts your Malefic Grasp casts around a little bit. But for resto druids, it matters a lot because they're casting HoTs on players and letting them expire, meaning they get a full extra tick on every single Rejuv they cast.

What you think about the 2er Bonus of our T15 set with block?

What you preffer me on Raid Bosses? Keep Block up, or more Shield Buff?


My thoughts on the 2-piece bonus are outlined in this blog post. In short, it's not something that's worth maintaining 100% uptime on. It's a nice consolation prize for when we need to WoG ourselves (i.e. when we can make full use of the WoG healing), and it could potentially be good for large predictable attacks that are blockable. For example, before a large, blockable spike you might SotR and use the remaining 1-2 HP on WoG to get the SotR mitigation and a 40% higher chance to block that attack/attacks; heroic Sha's Dread Thrash is a good example here.

#33 Omnialias

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:04 AM

Hey guys, love what you all do here. Definitely helped me a lot when I started playing Prot Pally for MoP.

So here's a question: Do we care about our tier gear in 5.2? All of it has either dodge or parry on it, and the tier bonuses just don't seem very useful. The 4-piece is the only one that's slightly interesting, but even then, Divine Protection is not my go to major cooldown. Any thoughts?

#34 gming18

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:48 AM

Has anyone gotten a chance to do testing on the tanking legendary meta gem: Indomitable Primal Diamond? My main questions are whether or not the buff can proc off of dodges and parries, and if it does not, how much would avoidance gearing vs. control/haste gearing affect uptimes? Does the meta gem therefore devalue avoidance gearing a substantial amount?

It would seem from just tooltip checking that the buff procs off hits/absorbs only, but I have been unable to test to verify this.

#35 Ronark

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 09:39 PM

Has anyone gotten a chance to do testing on the tanking legendary meta gem: Indomitable Primal Diamond? My main questions are whether or not the buff can proc off of dodges and parries, and if it does not, how much would avoidance gearing vs. control/haste gearing affect uptimes? Does the meta gem therefore devalue avoidance gearing a substantial amount?

It would seem from just tooltip checking that the buff procs off hits/absorbs only, but I have been unable to test to verify this.


Indomitable Primal Diamond – 1.40 RealPPM on damage/absorb taken from melee ability or swing. No ICD.
Source: Windsong and Elemental Force Information - Forums - World of Warcraft

It sounds like it cannot proc on Dodges, Parries, or Misses.
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#36 Wrathblood

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:46 PM

Hey guys, love what you all do here. Definitely helped me a lot when I started playing Prot Pally for MoP.

So here's a question: Do we care about our tier gear in 5.2? All of it has either dodge or parry on it, and the tier bonuses just don't seem very useful. The 4-piece is the only one that's slightly interesting, but even then, Divine Protection is not my go to major cooldown. Any thoughts?


More than anything it comes down to whether you do 10s or 25s. For 25s, our 4 piece is likely pretty good but for 10s its less good. As for the value of individual stats, Theck has put out some very interesting stuff recently. I intend to rewrite the gearing section to reflect our evolving understanding of tanking stats but I've been letting it bounce around in my brain for a while to get my own thinking clear (as Richard Feynman said, if you can't explain a concept to a freshman seminar class, you don't understand it well enough yourself yet). I think I'm just about ready.

#37 Omnialias

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

It also appears that at some point in the near future we'll be seeing some Theckcrafting with regards to the 4-piece, so that'll be nice.

#38 greywolfamakir

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:47 AM

Hello

Protection Paladin 5.2 Overview

At level 60, it can't be overstated how good Hand of Purity is on fights involving DoTs, and it is now broadly useful as well. Base your choice on which talent helps the most with the mechanics you expect to face.


Does Hand of Purity work against Megeara's Breaths?

I am not sure.

#39 BentBlyant

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:56 PM

It works against the dot placed by the red head, I can verify that.

#40 festival

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:14 PM

Hey hey,

I've noticed a lot of paladin tanks (10-man at least) take the crit metagem instead of the one with stamina. Is the reasoning only for the increased damage or does it provide other benefits? (Procs SoI or something)




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