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[Prot] 5.3 - Same Man I was Before


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#41 BentBlyant

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 02:55 PM

They must've picked the wrong one, the stamina one is crazy strong

#42 festival

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:59 AM

They must've picked the wrong one, the stamina one is crazy strong


I do not think several tanks in high-end 10-man guilds pick the same meta gem incorrectly. Even if you happen to purchase the wrong one, changing it is cheap.

#43 BentBlyant

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

I do not think several tanks in high-end 10-man guilds pick the same meta gem incorrectly. Even if you happen to purchase the wrong one, changing it is cheap.


Could you provide armory links to the players?

#44 burghy

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:09 PM

They need damage more than survivability, not a mystery.

#45 festival

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:49 AM

Could you provide armory links to the players?



Fraggoji @ Lightning's Blade - Community - World of Warcraft
Nsjx @ Grim Batol - Community - World of Warcraft
Cayouz @ Azshara - Community - World of Warcraft
Nefây @ Eredar - Community - World of Warcraft
Fela @ Destromath - Community - World of Warcraft

These are the paladin tanks in the five highest ranked 10-man guilds at the moment.

They need damage more than survivability, not a mystery.


This seems to be the idea yeah, but the reason I asked the question was if it was only for the damage increase or if there's something else tied to it. I like understanding what I do, not just follow blindly and I had not seen a discussion about this already

#46 Exemplar

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:06 PM

Branching out into a tanking offspec. Question about gemming - are dodge/parry socket bonuses worth meeting? Would hybrid gems to earn some bonus dodge or parry be better than just throwing Haste everywhere? How about if the socket bonus was Sta?
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#47 Capstone

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:07 PM

Tanking and healing are not as clear-cut as DPS. It depends greatly on what sort of content you are facing and what your raidcomp needs. Dodge and parry aren't bad, just not as good as haste mastery. Stamina is the best for survival, but you can often sacrifice some survivability for a gain in DPS. I would meet stamina bonus socket requirements before dodge/parry, personally.

@Allana: you did notice their gemming and trinket choices, right? Choosing the crit metagem seems consistent with the rest of their gearing strategy: sacrificing some survivability for a significant gain in DPS.

#48 Ronark

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:12 AM

I would not go so far as stating that Stamina is best for survival, but rather it gives a linear increase in effective health.
What you do get for meeting gem requirements is additional stat points that, regardless of their value, still add mitigation/DPS (with the exception of Crit only adding DPS).
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#49 Charybdis

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:59 AM

Considering there are good stats for each socket color, gemming for socket bonuses shouldn't be a problem at all unless it's a red and the player can't reforge away enough expertise for the red socket to be worth much of anything. At that point it's either parry or strength for the red, so perhaps not as attractive as other stats but it's not like it's the end of the world if there's a parry or strength gem in your gear that activates a parry or dodge bonus. It's still doing something for you, and unless you're bleeding edge it should be fine. And if you're bleeding edge, you're probably gemming stamina up the wazoo just to make sure you can survive long enough through learning the encounter to feel comfortable.

#50 festival

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:19 AM

Far as I can tell, stamina seems way more popular in 25-man setting and pure haste the norm in 10-man. I play 10-man, which is why my question was regarding that. I do not think going straight stamina would benefit me at all - we can use our druid tank to be the "soaker". I quite enjoy being able to have up my SHoR up for all hard boss hits any way.

@Capstone - haste is not purely for a damage increase, far as I've seen it does wonders for your survivability.

#51 Capstone

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:43 AM

If you are worried about your survivability, gemming stamina gives you the best bang for your buck, by far. Pretty sure Theck will back me up on this one. Haste is our best smoothing stat and very good for mitigation. You are spot on though with stamina gemming being more of a 25 man strat for progression and haste being 10 man. I say that they are sacrificing survivability for DPS not only because of not gemming stamina, but also because they are ignoring any socket bonus that doesn't directly increase DPS.

#52 Wrathblood

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:16 PM

Ok, rewriting the stats section. Its nice in that its actually a bit simpler now.

First cap Hit and Exp.

After that, our best survivability stat is Stam, so stack that until you have "enough" defined however you like but when your healers stop complaining is a good sign. Since most gear of the same ilevel has the same STAM, the best ways to stack STAM are trinkets and enchants. Gemming for STAM is less efficient and should only be done as a final resort.

After that, stack Haste to improve your DPS. Haste is also a fairly decent survivability stat as it increases your ShoR uptime, the refresh speed on SS and gives you more SoI ticks. So when deciding how much survivability you want (and obviously that's a very ball-park decision), its ok to stop a bit short of your goal when stacking STAM because you'll pick up a little from your Haste.

Typically you won't be able to cluster all of your itemization into Haste and Mastery is your best survivability stat so that's what you want to cluster points into as a last resort. That having been said, Avoidance does give you a decent amount of survivability and isn't far behind Mastery.

As a result, I recommend gemming for socket bonuses and using the highest ilevel pieces available even if they aren't well itemized. Lets say you have a choice between a Hit/Haste helm and a Dodge/Parry helm that's half a tier higher. I recommend going with the Avoidance helm for a number of reasons. First, it will have significantly more primary stats: STR, Armor and best of all STAM, its like getting a free socket bonus. Second, those Avoidance stats plus the bonus primary stats will make the piece significantly stronger for survivability than the Hit/Haste helm, letting you hit whatever target you've established and possibly shift gearing elsewhere, moving from a STAM trinket to a Haste trinket perhaps.

#53 Charybdis

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:25 PM

Preliminary T16 bonuses:

Item - Paladin T16 Protection 2P Bonus (New) Bastion of Glory now generates 1 Holy Power per stack consumed.
Item - Paladin T16 Protection 4P Bonus (New) While Guardian of Ancient Kings is active, 100% of the damage taken is converted into a heal over time that activates when Guardian of Ancient Kings fades.


The 2p is nice in that using BoG stacks for WoG means we can almost always follow up with a SotR. The 2pT15 and 2pT16 will mesh nicely together.

We're going to need a little more info on the 4p to see how it handles, but I would expect the HoT to last no more than 10 or 15 seconds and not scale with haste (or any other stats like crit), but it might benefit from increased healing %. Even if it doesn't though, it's almost certainly not going to be a big thing because spikes usually don't last longer than the 12 seconds we'd have from GoAK, and the healing would likely be overhealing unless the group coordinated better. Based on the other tank 4p bonuses though, it's possible Blizz is gearing up some fights with extended high-damage periods that will need CDs.

#54 Theck

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:10 PM

2-piece: Far too strong combined with 2-piece T15. If they go live this way, we'll use 2T15+2T16 to keep 40% block (w/o DR) up for free by WoGging every 3 stacks of BoG. I'd put lots of money on this being changed or swapped with the 4-piece.

4-piece: Blessing of the Guardians, HoT ticks every 1 second for 10 seconds. As of yet unknown whether it accumulates value based on damage post/pre mitigation and post/pre absorb. I tried to test it on PTR, but it's not activating at all yet. For now, I've assumed post-mitigation, post-absorb.

4-piece is very meh - a 10-second HoT after you're out of danger is not particularly attractive, especially as a 4-piece since it means you're giving up two pieces of potentially thunderforged (and well-itemized) off-set pieces. If it gets swapped with the 2-piece, then we get it for free, still very meh.

The bigger issue in my mind is our tier itemization. The values right now are quite obviously placeholders, but unless they start putting haste on our tier pieces (and start abstaining from double avoidance itemization), we are increasingly going to feel punished for wanting to wear tier by accepting a load of worthless dodge/parry. We already take a stamina hit by using tier compared to thunderforged off-set pieces; the combination of stamina loss and poor itemization makes tier bonuses very underwhelming at best for Prot, because they often barely make up for losing out on haste itemization (see my recent blog post on the T15 set bonuses).

By the way, in case anyone missed it, I've taken over as Simulationcraft's resident protection paladin developer. All of our tier bonuses are implemented and working in the current trunk if you want to download and build the code yourself to play with them. If you prefer to just be an end user, you'll have to wait until the next release update, which will be 530-4.

As far as I can tell, 530-4 has complete protection support. At the moment it's only missing Selfless Healer and some niche spells that aren't likely to be of much use in SimC (Hand of Protection, e.g.). If you find any issues, feel free to open a google code ticket, PM me on the forums, or if Wrathblood deems it OK you can discuss it in this thread.

Note that tanking metrics aren't done yet, so for now it's just a DPS sim. You can still do the usual stat scaling over DTPS, of course, but I haven't gotten to implementing smoothness metrics. Should be getting to that in the next week or two, depending on how involved it becomes.

#55 Charybdis

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:00 PM

As much as I think everyone would love it if we could get haste on our tier (we'd like it for obvious reasons, and other classes don't have to worry as much about us trying to nab haste pieces), I doubt they'll do it because they still want to look like they're pushing "core tank stats" despite mountains of data saying it's barely worthwhile.

One of their design problems is that in giving players more control over the spike periods, they might give too much control to us and thus make the content less challenging than it would need to be to keep people interested. I fully expect to see nerfs to our most easily tweaked haste-dependent abilities (SoI and SS) for 5.4 if they truly do want to make haste less attractive as they mentioned in posts. It might be at the point where they've gotten themselves in a corner and now have to embrace haste to keep from alienating the player base.

#56 Wrathblood

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:19 PM

Theck, after giving it some thought I think it would make more sense to start a new thread to discuss Prot Paladin simcraft topics/issues/etc rather than including it here. While there are certain to be areas of substantial overlap, I think it'll be cleaner and less confusing to keep them separate.

#57 Charybdis

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:18 AM

Some more changes that have been datamined:

Reckoning Taunts the target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you and increases threat that you generate against the target by 200% for 3 sec. 3.5% of Base Mana. 30 yd range. Instant. 8 sec cooldown.

Item - Paladin T16 Protection 2P Bonus and Item - Paladin T16 Protection 4P Bonus have swapped (4P is now 2P and vice versa).

Eternal Flame: Initial heal nerfed from 5,538 + 49% SP to 3,876 + 34.3% SP.

Sanctified Wrath change: While AW is active, Judgment CD lowered by 100%

Sacred Shield (New): (Prot version): When you fall below 30% health, you gain Sacred Shield, absorbing 30% of your maximum health. Sacred Shield can only occur once every 2 minutes. Paladin - LvL 45 Talent. 40 yd range. 6 sec cooldown.

Sacred Shield Protects the target with a shield of Holy Light for 30 sec. The shield absorbs up to [ 343 + 117% of Holy Spell Power ] damage every 6 sec. Can be active only on one target at a time. Limited to 1 target. Paladin - LvL 45 Talent Protection Spec. 40 yd range. Instant. 6 sec cooldown.

Glyph of Alabaster Shield nerfed to be 10% per stack instead of its current 20%.



Reckoning is a nice change for tank swap fights since it's sometimes quite difficult to get threat back from someone with full Vengeance without them not attacking. All tank specs are getting their taunts overhauled like this.

Pretty sure we all saw the tier bonuses in line to be swapped. 2pT15 + 2pT16 would have been too good, while no one really cared about the 4p (and probably still won't now that it's 2p).

Sanctified Wrath essentially removing the CD on Judgment for us during AW seems a bit odd especially in light of the other talents that affect J.

Eternal Flame's 30% nerf was probably meant for Holy. Not worth much concern for Prot.

Sacred Shield is in flux right now so it's difficult to see what the final revisions might be. It's looking like they're making the current SS Prot-only and then adding a new talent in to fill the gap. Said new talent seems like it'd be an absorb upon dipping below 30% health, so it'd be yet another "ohshit" kind of thing.

The glyph change might be them reacting to us having higher DPS than they thought we'd have since we're gearing haste. Doesn't seem like a huge deal though.

#58 Theck

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:54 PM

If you mouse over the tooltip of the prot-only Sacred Shield, you'll see that the name is actually "Holy Shield."

In short: old SS talent becomes Holy Shield, prot spec ability.
New SS talent is the passive 30% health absorb shield on a 2m cooldown.

#59 Charybdis

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:28 PM

Based on the blue post here it looks like they'll revert the Sacred Shield changes, and won't be nerfing Prot because of the change since the original Sacred Shield is more compelling than the new one as a talent.


June 27 edit:

Some datamining on MMO-C shows our 4p bonus is being changed.

Item - Paladin T16 Protection 4P Bonus Bastion of Glory now generates 1 Holy Power per stack consumed. While at 3 or more stacks of Bastion of Glory, your next Word of Glory will consume no Holy Power and count as 3 Holy Power were consumed.


This was definitely needed because, as Theck mentioned at Sacred Duty, it would have been possible to get 100% uptime on SotR. In short, totally unbalancing when all they really wanted to do was lessen or entirely remove the opportunity cost of WoG. It looks like they've succeeded in making their intent a reality without breaking the game. The effect should still be worth going for the 4p, but WoG being a better "ohshit" button isn't always what's needed. We'll see how it sims and feels though.


Some additional datamining:

Holy Shield: Protects the target with a shield of Holy Light for 30 sec. The shield absorbs up to [ 343 + 117% of Holy Spell Power ] damage every 6 sec. Can be active only on one target at a time. Limited to 1 target. Paladin - Protection Spec LvL 45 Talent. 40 yd range. Instant. 6 sec cooldown.

Sanctified Wrath: Avenging Wrath lasts 50% longer and grants more frequent access to one of your abilities while it lasts. Holy Reduces the cooldown of Holy Shock by 50% and increases the critical strike chance of Holy Shock by 20%. Protection Reduces the cooldown of Judgment by 100% 50%, and causes Judgment to generate one additional Holy Power. Avenging Wrath also increases healing received by 20%. Retribution Reduces the cooldown of Hammer of Wrath by 50%. Paladin - LvL 75 Talent.


Based on how the Holy Shield text is now the same as it was for Sacred Shield, it's looking like they're keeping up with the promise I linked to above with regards to leaving SS in and not replacing it with the former low-health absorption that would have been Holy Shield.

The SW change might have put us in an odd situation with Judgment, but thanks to our max HoPo stack being 5 and SotR being both on a short CD and extending the duration while used when it's up, there shouldn't be many problems so long as we can't extend SotR's duration into the next AW with it, which would mean 100% uptime. Owing to the former 4p bonus, I'm hoping they're checking for other ways we might substantially increase our SotR uptime and are planning things accordingly so that we can't cap.

Afterthought: They took back the 30% nerf to Eternal Flame. It shouldn't really affect us, but it's worth noting in case anyone ever felt like using it. The nerf was meant for Holy anyway since we really don't us EF.

#60 Wrathblood

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 04:35 PM

New 5.4 PTR changes MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft News and Raiding Strategies

- GotBH - Seal of Insight now heals most wounded raid or party member instead of Paladin
- GC no longer procs off CS/HotR, now has 30% chance to proc of all Avoids

GC change will be terrible for Haste, dragging it farther below STAM for survivability but I strongly doubt it will fall as low as Mastery. Will make gearing more interesting.

GotBH change, well, it'll be nice to have another glyph slot to play with. I suppose it would be more utility (reducing the OH% on it would be nice) but it'd be such a huge survivability loss I'm skeptical it'd be worthwhile in most situations. Only affects party/raid members, so, no, it probably won't let you go back and rock Tsulong's and Dreamwalker's worlds.

Edit - SoI also no longer returns mana. I had assumed this was a Holy nerf but its been pointed out that it could be a sneaky way of nerfing Haste. The other two are pretty straightforward, this one I'll wait and see on.

Edit2 - I've been out of town for a few weeks now, but I'll be back next week and when I do I'll be starting a 5.4 PTR thread to discuss this stuff.




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