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5.2 Disc Priest Discussion


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#21 Jeges

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:34 PM

This is some data collected from horridon 10 man HC where +damage debuff on horridon is +200%.
My health is 441k unbuffed, 30% of that is 132k. Did something change in 5.2? Notice how crits does not seem to be capped on atonement heals. In 5.1 +347k heal, in 5.2 +146k and +186k DA.


From your 5.1 log, your crit is 2.06x your noncrit Atonement cap (347771 versus 168821). That seems right.

Things make less sense to me looking at your 5.2 log snippets.

#22 Perkeyone

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:17 PM

This is how I am attempting to calculate atonement healing:

1) Start with the damage dealt. (factor our resilience in pvp)
2) Cap that damage at 30% of the priest's max hp, regardless of crit or noncrit (30.9% for crits with meta gem).
3) Multiply in mastery and any other buffs or debuffs to healing done or taken.

Can anyone confirm or correct this? I need to be sure for some testing and possibly a bug report.

I have 383k hp unbuffed. I think with raid buffs I have 407k. So I should not see my atonement healing hit the cap unless I deal more than 122k damage, right?

#23 ohcrocsle

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:13 PM

Check Horridon logs and you should see your atonement with 1 stack of Cracked Shell (50% damage per stack) equal to your atonement with 2-4 stacks. Compare this with Jin'rokh (40% damage buff + 60% healing buff) where you should be seeing full atonement healing in excess of 200k (much more than any sort of proposed 30% hp cap). This indicates a simple cap at +50% damage taken by the mob with no known cap on healing modifiers after that.

Also, I did a test run with t15 4pc and Golden Apparition is modified by Archangel and can crit (and does create DA when it crits). I have not been able to figure out how the spell power modification works. Without archangel up, the lowest heal I saw was ~93k and the highest around 142k. I *think* the maximum possible heal increases 1:1 with spell power, but the minimum heal stays the same... meaning the average heal increases 1:2 with your spellpower. This is just taken from logs, if someone has the time to gather better information from target dummy healing, you should be able to refute my hypothesis easily if it's incorrect.

#24 Gloryrider

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:52 PM

So how is the nerf to atonement changing our playstyle in 5.3? On first sight it looks like a big nerf, but if we play around with using heal-penance more (which doesn't get nerfed and also benefits from evangelism) and realize that smite really only heals during low damage phases, I don't think it's too bad? I don't have the time to run any calculations on it though, but it's something to take note of since many players will still be progressing through HC ToT when the patch hits.

#25 urumii

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:01 AM

So how is the nerf to atonement changing our playstyle in 5.3? On first sight it looks like a big nerf, but if we play around with using heal-penance more (which doesn't get nerfed and also benefits from evangelism) and realize that smite really only heals during low damage phases, I don't think it's too bad? I don't have the time to run any calculations on it though, but it's something to take note of since many players will still be progressing through HC ToT when the patch hits.


Even with the nerfs in 5.2, disc remained above the other specs in almost all fights. With my playstyle in 10man raiding, atonement is roughly 20-30% of my healing done. This is a 4%-6% nerf to overall healing, still leaving disc comfortably above the other specs.

I have not done the math on heal vs damage penance post nerf, I assume it will now be more hps to use it as a heal, but overall probably more beneficial (at least in 10man) to still use it as a damaging ability.

There are some good discussions dedicated to this on MMO-Champion and HowtoPriest as well, if you're interested.

#26 Gloryrider

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:22 PM

Discipline
Borrowed Time now reduces the cast time or channel time of your next Priest spell within 6 sec by 15%, rather than granting 15% haste for 6 sec.

I hate this change. Besides being a flat nerf for those using this mechanic correctly, it's removing an extra layer of depth to the class... very sad, very very sad...

#27 PainInTheSomething

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 02:42 PM

I've been using askmrrobot for reforge, gem, enchant, etc. direction, with the spec based of Crit, which had served me well in the past. Since changing server/guild to a higher raid guild, my heals are no longer looking so good. Our 1st week as a raid team we are 8 bosses into ToT and almost had DA last night. Looking at the logs for Primordius (I forgot to turn log on for DA), I'm dead last healing. The top pally healer gear ilvl is well above mine, the other pally has better gear, but not a lot better (I got the hands off of Primo last night) but doing enchants/gems today. When I heal, I generally spam HF, smite, penance, use PW:S for Rapture or oh crap bubble, burn archangel and spam PoH and cascade for high damage periods, and use SF on CD.

Here's the log from last night Healing done - 21-04 20:44 - Pain's Log - World of Logs

The top Disc healer in guild (Golbar) is Haste based. His mana regen is 4k higher than mine. Some of his logs have SS as the top heal, other times he looks to atonement heal a lot. I'm in the process of trying haste based, but not sure if I'll be Oom with my gear Ohthepain @ Stormrage - Community - World of Warcraft . Any thoughts on haste vs. crit build. Am I just screwing something up, not using CDs correctly, or are pallys so OP as healers I need to chill about being last?

And a general question about spirit shell. Since it's a bubble and not a heal and in high damage periods the bubble doesn't seem to last long and when it breaks their health is no better than when it bubbled them, why am I not just healing them since the bubble is no stronger than the direct heal I would send them anyway? Or is it something I should only do to pre-bubble for damage and forget otherwise? It doesn't benefit from archangel, so should I burn my archangel spam PoH heals then SS or just use SS and potentially let archangel fall off? There seems to be enough movement it's hard to park my butt and just spam direct heals. It just doesn't seem like there is time to do everything, so I'm trying to rethink my strat for encounters.

#28 urumii

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:22 PM

@PainInTheSomething

Haste is your top throughput stat, but it requires more spirit to maintain. So in general the gain from just crit or just mastery will outweigh the gain of Haste+Spirit. Current information says that crit and mastery should be balanced up until you hit 20%. Then for every 1% crit you get, you want 2% mastery. This chart was taken from Havok on MMO-Champion, and illustrated the crit/mastery balance I mentioned.

crit                         Mastery		
0.195269321		0.208
0.205436921		0.228
0.215514874		0.248
0.225506222		0.268
0.23541387		0.288
0.245240597		0.308
0.254989059		0.328
0.264661797		0.348
0.274261242		0.368
0.283789725		0.388

I have only slightly better gear than you (505ilvl), and I am significantly higher than you on Primordius, and consistently rank top 5-10 on most fights. I heal with a far better geared paladin as well, and he never beats me, so it's not a matter of gear.

Comparing our logs on Primordius I see several things that stick out. First is that you didn't use Spirit Shell or Prayer of Mending at all. There are several lower damage parts of the encounter that you can use to stack Spirit Shell and apply a PoM on someone. I'll discuss further about Spirit Shell below. You also use a lot of Penance casts on players. Penance is your top atonement healing, and you're wasting 34% of it to overhealing on that pull. Penance will heal for more if used as a damaging ability, and it's a smart heal so overhealing will be reduced.

I would also highly recomment getting Solace & Insanity instead of Mindbender. In every fight this tier, Solace will provide more mana than Mindbender. Mindbender is good for Heroic Horridon, but that's because of the certain mechanic it has.

Regarding your thoughts on Spirit shell, you seem to be misinformed (either that, or I'm misinformed). During constant AoE periods, some people will be higher than other people. Your PoH will almost certainly overheal a couple people per cast. Spirit Shell ensures that none of the bubble is wasted to overhealing. Ideally you want to cast it before the big AoE damage comes out, but in most cases it is still better to use than PoH during constant ticking AoE damage like on Primordius. Spirit Shell also benefits from Archangel, so you should macro Archangel and Spirit Shell together. There is plenty of time on Primordius to park yourself in such a way that you can stop and cast for several seconds without getting hit by the purple pools and staying in range of the 25yard boss aoe thing.

#29 Gnomnomnom

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:39 AM

Looking at the logs for Primordius (I forgot to turn log on for DA), I'm dead last healing. The top pally healer gear ilvl is well above mine, the other pally has better gear, but not a lot better (I got the hands off of Primo last night) but doing enchants/gems today. When I heal, I generally spam HF, smite, penance, use PW:S for Rapture or oh crap bubble, burn archangel and spam PoH and cascade for high damage periods, and use SF on CD.


One problem with Primordius is that you need to Fully Mutate first, or else your atonement damage is going to suffer. I'm not very good at using the log browser in WoL, so if someone else wants to parse how much atonement healing was done when you weren't mutated, that might help clear up your problem (specific to Primordius).

#30 PainInTheSomething

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:13 PM

@PainInTheSomething

Comparing our logs on Primordius I see several things that stick out. First is that you didn't use Spirit Shell or Prayer of Mending at all. There are several lower damage parts of the encounter that you can use to stack Spirit Shell and apply a PoM on someone. I'll discuss further about Spirit Shell below. You also use a lot of Penance casts on players. Penance is your top atonement healing, and you're wasting 34% of it to overhealing on that pull. Penance will heal for more if used as a damaging ability, and it's a smart heal so overhealing will be reduced.

I would also highly recomment getting Solace & Insanity instead of Mindbender. In every fight this tier, Solace will provide more mana than Mindbender. Mindbender is good for Heroic Horridon, but that's because of the certain mechanic it has.

Regarding your thoughts on Spirit shell, you seem to be misinformed (either that, or I'm misinformed). During constant AoE periods, some people will be higher than other people. Your PoH will almost certainly overheal a couple people per cast. Spirit Shell ensures that none of the bubble is wasted to overhealing. Ideally you want to cast it before the big AoE damage comes out, but in most cases it is still better to use than PoH during constant ticking AoE damage like on Primordius. Spirit Shell also benefits from Archangel, so you should macro Archangel and Spirit Shell together. There is plenty of time on Primordius to park yourself in such a way that you can stop and cast for several seconds without getting hit by the purple pools and staying in range of the 25yard boss aoe thing.


I clearly misunderstood SS, I had thought I read somewhere that SS didn't benefit from archangel and that old bad information just stuck. I went back to crit build, did a macro to AA and SS and used it, tried to remember to keep PoM up (although sometimes it bounce 1 or 2 times and just fell off the 3rd). I worked on rotation changes in LFRs. Before I got the LFR tier chest yesterday I think the macro'd AA & SS were all above 250k bubbles (playing with dummy casting on self, unbuffed). I try to only use penance to damage the boss, but was finding I needed to sometimes give a direct heal to a player taking a lot of damage. We did the achievement kill with no one mutated, so I did what I could do with the incoming damage. Perhaps this week we'll do a normal kill, and get a chance to try something different. I wasn't using PoM on CD, but was waiting for it to bounce the 4th time or fall off a player. Should I really be using it on CD instead? I switched to Solace & Insanity, and yes, that was a nice improvement too. So, my healing has improved and you've been a great help.

edit: Should I macro in a Power Word: Shield to get barrowed time before AA and SS, so I get the first PoH off faster?


One problem with Primordius is that you need to Fully Mutate first, or else your atonement damage is going to suffer. I'm not very good at using the log browser in WoL, so if someone else wants to parse how much atonement healing was done when you weren't mutated, that might help clear up your problem (specific to Primordius).


You are exactly correct. I wasn't mutated, which hurts my atonement healing. However, the kill was the achievement kill with no one mutated, and the healing was "interesting". I tried to atonement heal as much as I could, but there were some serious "oh crap" moments, hence penance on player direct heals. We wanted to do it before the next nerf. For our 1st run as a new raid team, I think we did pretty well.

Lots to learn. Thanks to all for feedback and help!

#31 PainInTheSomething

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:22 PM

Durumu 10N, we (2 healers, Disc (me) and pally) were having some issues. It seemed frequent that 1 of us got the red beam and had to stay mobile to uncover and burn the 3 reds. The other would often have to move from the stationary blue beam (where we healers and tanks usually camp out) to be the third person in yellow. Ranged always took red. Damage when the tanks got to three stacks and the tic damage from being in the beams seemed significant. It seemed very hard to heal effectively and keep moving to the next red. When I got the red beam, crap, my healing sucked because the RL wants me to move to next red asap, even as I'm watching people's health bars go away. I bubble them, penance them, cascade, PoM, any instant heal I can do, but we were wiping a lot and ended up calling it for the night. Then, of course... "Why didn't I get any heals? You let me die." I think part of the problem was we didn't have healing assignments, rather, just told keep everyone up. Afterwards, I looked at my overheals and I was on top, where I'm usually below even people that have self heals. So, I think we need to figure out healing assignments. However, I'd like to know how others handle fights like this where there is significant incoming damage while you have to be on the run. We've been lucky in the past and could just camp in blue and heal, almost asleep. A

They want me to switch to Holy for raid healing the next attempt for more AoE running heals, which I've done, even though I'm not fond of it (team player that I am).With the advice I've already gotten, I'm often top heals. On Iron Qon (up until we die on tornados) I can easily maintain over 95k hps as Disc, so know I can single target and raid heal. I'd like to fix my problems as Disc and high movement fights.

#32 Jeges

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:34 PM

FDCL adds some mobility as Disc (and a decent amount of mana savings and triage throughput, as well), on fights where you're using Atonement a lot.

Most fights I heal as Discipline, but I go Holy for Durumu. Lightspring in the middle is awfully nice, and you can Divine Hymn while you're standing still waiting for your friends to kill one of the adds. Not only will it generally top off the raid, it'll leave everyone with a bonus to heals taken. Use single-target Chakra except for when light beams are up.

#33 urumii

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:35 AM

For Durumu it seems more logical to me to put healers in Blue, range in Yellow and melee/tanks in red. Blue shouldn't ever move, therefor healers don't have to move. Healers can stand near the center and reach everybody. Red is where the add will be, so melee can dps it, and range is yellow by process of elimination.

The first beam phase is pretty easy, rarely have to use any CDs for it. The second beam phase there is always one life drain, sometimes two if the phase is slow. I save my spirit shell for the first life drain which happens about 15sec into the phase, and we use CDs like Devo and shaman healing things while life drain is out.

Outside of those beam phases everything is pretty simple. As long as your raiders can dodge the purple eye maze and you position yourself properly for the colored beams you should be fine.

Additionally, if you have a paladin tank you can solo tank the encounter, giving you some more dps.

#34 Radghr

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:00 PM

If you get the beam just make sure you are moving in close proximity to the boss. Not only does this let you turn the beam faster between red mists for a shorter phase but also you can go right back to spamming aoe heals after moving until the add dies because you are in the center of the room still.

Also Disc has plenty of abilities that can be used while on the move: Prayer of Mending, Power Word: Shield, Renew is also strong with Borrowed Time up if that gets you over a haste break point, our lvl 90 talents and Penance if glyphed (preferably offensive for durumu light prism phases). Edit: Forgot Solace/Holy Fire.

It might also be worth it to call for healing cd's from dps if you are aware you will be moving to much and falling behind on healing.

#35 Havoc12

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:28 AM

Disc can heal reasonably well on the move on durumu. Use a PWS-instant-penance rotation, with glyphed penance, while you move from spot to spot with the red. Basically use up your spirit shell before lights begin. Stay close to boss so you can move the beam fast and then in the 4-5s it takes to get from spot to spot, cast PWS, penance, pom and when you arrive you have a 2s PoH ready. If both PoM and penance are on CD when you have to move, spamming PWS on the move also works.

#36 trustsam

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:07 PM

Is it worth it to glyph inner fire (50% bonus armor) on Dark Animus? Haven't had much experience on it yet. Assuming I'm tanking one add behind the animus itself (think back middle) and tank picks it up asap is it worth the 50% armor?

#37 Gloryrider

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:50 PM

for normal i'd say no it isn't worth it. If you just mark up your add and have the tank take that next after he dealt with his 2, you shouldn't have much trouble. Keep yourself shielded, graced and let PoM bounce around maximumly... I never had too much of an issue healing that part, although it can drain some mana I found the part that comes after you killed all the active little ones (when you fill up the massive one) to be a more quiet phase to make up for it.

#38 Udain

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:13 PM

Deleted - got my answer

#39 trustsam

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:31 AM

for normal i'd say no it isn't worth it. If you just mark up your add and have the tank take that next after he dealt with his 2, you shouldn't have much trouble. Keep yourself shielded, graced and let PoM bounce around maximumly... I never had too much of an issue healing that part, although it can drain some mana I found the part that comes after you killed all the active little ones (when you fill up the massive one) to be a more quiet phase to make up for it.


Thanks for the response. We downed it and there is no need for it. The spell reduction is better anyways for the burst that comes out later. We were just doing it wrong.

#40 Hamlet

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:11 PM

I get PM's every now and then about the HolyCalcs spreadsheet (http://elitistjerks....s_beta_5_2_ptr/) . I won't bump the other thread right now since I'm not updating it at the moment. Truth is that I made it (or rather, jerryrigged it from the Druid sheet) just to help myself answer some questions about Disc. But maintaining it as a publicly usable sheet is a lot more work especially with Tecton (who handles all the item inputs) more busy these days. I'll probably keep using it whenever I look into Priestly things, but if people want to use it regularly, any Excel-savvy person can contact me who might be interested in keeping it up to date more regularly.




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