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Warning for Effinhunter: 3. All discussion should be both polite and civil.

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#1 Narcosleepy


    It's not you. Really. I hate everyone.

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

Post: Thread of Ultimate Stupidity
User: Effinhunter
Infraction: 3. All discussion should be both polite and civil.
Points: 0

Administrative Note:

Message to User:

I moved your post out because, while there are some valid observations in there, the entire thing is written as "here are all the ways you are bad and wrong Nooska". Please keep in mind that everyone here, myself and moderation efforts included, are done completely on a volunteer basis. No one is perfect, and no one should be above polite discussions with supporting evidence on mechanics. There is no need to create a giant timeline of all the ways you think someone was wrong, but you can certainly disagree and provide the math/evidence to show your point. That is how, as a community, we figure things out.

I hope this PM clarifies things and if not, please feel free to reach out to me.

Original Post:

The following is how you, Nooska, accomplished your conclusions and how others have corrected you, frequently, within this thread.

1.) You make your OP stating that various stats are better than others (which are wrong).
1a.) At one point, mastery is better than crit (which javaman123 disagrees from real world tests)
1b.) You do not address his post and after a few days, figure it out yourself, with no credit to javaman123.
1c.) At this point, you are only showcasing real world testing and no math, and that makes sense since this point in the thread is entirely PTR testing.
1d.) Unfortunately, this trend continues and means that all of your numbers from this point on are based on what you can test in the game, and since you have not even cleared normal T14, you essentially don't have access to better weapons (meaning all your "theorycrafting" is based on lower-grade LFR weapons).

2.) You claim that crit has no soft cap and that the returns essentially do not plateau. This is not the most over-the-top thing I've ever read from you, but if you spreadsheet everything, you'll find that there certainly is a point where crit is no longer better than even adding haste. If crit had no soft cap (a plateau), it would stay strong. It doesn't because eventually the pet is regenning more focus than it can use with its focus dumps. For hunters paying attention, you can reach crit diminishing returns in T15. Crit is really good at first until you reach certain focus regenning soft caps, and then you should spreadsheet gains to find out what works for your gear profile.
2a.) NoGoal calls out your statement and mentions the softcaps for focus regen.
2b.) You about face.
2c.) Again, you have shown no point in the thread so far as being diligent with your math.

3.) You defend your shot priorities of having KC before KS, because you claim that in your napkin math over a 6 minute fight delaying KC for KS results in loss of 1/6 of your KCs. Anyone else notice a problem with his assumptions? When does KS become active? Poor assumptions, validated with bad math.
3a.) NoGoal corrects you and suggests KS > GT > KC, with analytical data.

4.) You definitively assert, with no mathematical basis, that being focus capped is not really a dps loss. If you are gearing in a way that makes your pet or you focus capped (e.g., continuing stacking crit as you had claimed earlier in the thread), then you are focus capping your pet where moving stats to a different stat--say mastery or haste--might have resulted in better dps. Further, you don't understand optimal openers, which is what other people take you to task for in this post.
4a.) Arktem disagrees.
4b.) Nooska argues a bad point.
4c.) Esoth disagrees.
4d.) Tphirey reminds you that prepots are not modeled accurately at femaledwarf and you should look to Simcraft to understand what you are talking about
4e.) Rivkah verifies Tphirey's statement
4f.) You finally update your OP to reflect obvious mechanics

5) Balzak posts that he's finding his gear profile (which included Tao Ren) seems to favor crit/haste instead of crit/mastery
5a.) Whitefyst correctly extrapolates some of why haste becomes better for hunters (because they shoot more autoshots of the higher damage bow). He backs up his analysis with numbers, but later, he says he prefers the slightly higher overall dps and prefers to buff his hunter dps in case fight mechanics require higher hunter dps (e.g., when pets are bouncing around). I think Nooska takes this to mean that it comes down to personal preference, which would be a bad conclusion to take from this series of posts (especially without doing some analysis on why the profiles are beginning to favor haste for INCREASED OVERALL DPS).
5b.) Nooska doesn't address this for quite some time, but when he does, he announces he has decided the simulators are broken and favor haste. His "analysis" claims that his reasoning is because haste doesn't increase any damage from instants while mastery does (for pet instants). He does not address anything about autoshots. He does not address anything about weapon damage. There is no real math in his "analysis".
5c.) Contributors to simcc disagree, providing numbers and noting lack of mathematical rigor in Nooska's argument.
5d.) Nooska presents more intuitions about how simulations don't take into account latency and that haste is bad.
5c.) Lokrick disagrees.
5d.) arison notes that mastery and haste are close on the first 3 minutes of a fight
5e.) Nooska posts a retort with his own gear, which is low, and not indicative of T15 gear at all, to show that for HIM, mastery is better than haste, especially when combined with crit. This is because he has a T14 LFR weapon.
5f.) arison says essentially "yeah, for your gear, mastery is better than haste, but this is not indicative at all concerning what is best for T15".
5g.) Nooska declares that his analysis for his own gear makes sense for the rest of hunters. Mastery is better than haste. Again, I don't see the connection. Neither does any spreadsheet.
5h.) I finally chime in, and try to convince him to use gear profiles that are not his own (especially a better weapon from late T14 or T15). He's not having that because he's done such detailed analysis and everyone in the simulator/spreadsheet community doesn't understand just how much better mastery is. This kind of logic continues to this very day.

6) As far as multi-mobs, Nooska shows he doesn't know about Barrage and advises only using multishots. Any hunter in raids knows that Barrage with a good weapon will up dps on AoE situations significantly. But Nooska's modeled everything precisely and with no bad assumptions. He also advocates serpent stinging other mobs. No mention of TotH for multi-mob packs so you can optimize the number of multishots you are doing with your focus regen. Instead, the important thing to remember here is apparently the serpent sting thing.
6a.) Renato disagrees on your AoE analysis that multidotting with SrS is a better idea than arcane shot on the primary target.

7) Nooska claims that the OP has been updated to include everyone else's ideas for the 5.2 changes and reaffirms that his indepth analysis does not change for 5.2 because the information is sound.

Edit: Now, to put this all in perspective, I don't object to Nooska maintaining the OP of this thread (I had a pm about this), but I have recently run into recruiting situations where hunters are coming to me after reading this thread and being very confused about what they should be doing in regards to gear and especially stats. There are also hunters in this thread who are confused (and have voiced such concern in posts and have been ignored), and quite frankly, we all have a right to be confused if the claim is now that every spreadsheet and simulator is unreasonably biased toward haste. If that's true, there needs to be more math that validates this claim. No one wants to be mislead here.

All that I'm asking is that you redo your analysis with better weapons and stop claiming the simulators are wrong based on math that you're either not providing or that is based on your weapon. I've tried re-reading this thread multiple times, and I simply do not see where your sound analysis is happening, and my point in listing the above is to show you that you have not been as mathematically rigorous with your findings in this expansion as I remember you to have been in past ones, and to please just humor my request for a more robust analysis (any such analysis I do with spreadsheets or simulators will be summarily dismissed by you again). I see no legitimate reason to discount the findings of simcc or femaledwarf in regards to haste versus mastery, and further, I find the results to be intuitive, reasonable, and backed by results from game damage analyzers (top 100 parses, my own parses while trying haste versus mastery gear, etc.) Additionally, the gearings of hunters I respect and parse well (e.g. kennyloggins) have moved toward haste for some time, and I see no reason to believe that top hunters from elite guilds are gimping their dps without reason. I certainly wouldn't (and their parses prove they are doing top damage), and I've tested mastery gear in relation to other hunters who had haste and had to switch to haste in order to compete with them on the meters in T15.

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