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[5.4 Combat] I'm Not Dead Yet


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#1 Pathal

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:52 AM

This post has been promoted to an article

Edited by Pathal, 27 October 2013 - 03:23 AM.


#2 dommy

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:15 AM

Even with the GCD reduction to 0.5s, I am having a tremendous problem not energy capping while SB and AR are active. Other than decoupling the two abilities, does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

#3 Pathal

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:33 AM

For many players, capping is inevitable with the 4 piece. But you can help make the most of it with a program to repeat key presses and/or enabling the ability queue. I've been using AutoHotKey ever since Heroic Rag progression was giving me carpal tunnel.

#4 Wimpyone

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:54 AM

For many players, capping is inevitable with the 4 piece. But you can help make the most of it with a program to repeat key presses and/or enabling the ability queue. I've been using AutoHotKey ever since Heroic Rag progression was giving me carpal tunnel.


Isn't having a program repeat key presses a bannable offence? I assume you're using it so that you just need to hold SS down and the macro simply keeps spamming SS while you do? Which would definitely be helpful with the 4-set GCD reduction issue!

#5 Pathal

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:25 PM

There's a difference between using a bot to play for you, and using a macro program to repeat key presses so you don't end a 3-4 hour raid with severe pain in your wrists. Programs and hardware that run key press automation are still permitted so long as you are engaging the system.

#6 Rigapples

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:21 PM

I seem to remember a blue post which suggested decoupling AR+SB with 4pc was an intended DPS increase for those that wanted it, and not doing so would likely cause a small DPS drop due to capping energy.

I also seem to have problems with CP capping. My UI delays just a little bit and with RvS + SB + AR in 4pc, sometimes I wind up with 4 anticipation points after 1 SS, and since I am spamming the button by the time I realize I need to Evis it's already too late and another SS comes out.

Any delay or lag on your client side really makes the GCD difficult to deal with during that time.

#7 cuppicake

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:16 AM

I seem to remember a blue post which suggested decoupling AR+SB with 4pc was an intended DPS increase for those that wanted it, and not doing so would likely cause a small DPS drop due to capping energy.

I also seem to have problems with CP capping. My UI delays just a little bit and with RvS + SB + AR in 4pc, sometimes I wind up with 4 anticipation points after 1 SS, and since I am spamming the button by the time I realize I need to Evis it's already too late and another SS comes out.

Any delay or lag on your client side really makes the GCD difficult to deal with during that time.


I just read this quote earlier today, but I can't remember where.

The gist of the Blue quote was close, but not exactly that. Ghostcrawler's original quote was in reference to people complaining about GCD/nrg cap during 4pc in its original state. Since then it's been changed so that glyph of AR + 4pc = .5s GCD. Blue also acknowledged Combat's reliance on CD's.

Had there been no change, I would imagine using SB/AR separately would be optimal. As it stands now, I'm really not sure--I actually came to this thread with that very question.

I WOULD like to see some changes to Killing Spree to make it a little less suicidal. Maybe a glyph that allows use of Killing Spree while moving, but it only affects your current target and you must stay in melee range?

#8 Oren

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:56 PM

I WOULD like to see some changes to Killing Spree to make it a little less suicidal. Maybe a glyph that allows use of Killing Spree while moving, but it only affects your current target and you must stay in melee range?


Just simply making it not swap FROM your current target would solve the problem in most cases, and it would be pretty easy to just add/change a minor glyph toward that end. Obviously we still want to retain bf related functionality (as to whether only affecting current target would be helpful). It boggles me that they overlooked the death inducing aspect of the skill, especially in light of how large every boss hitbox is these days. I mean...no one doing internal testing ever used killing spree on Horridon and warped to Africa to die horribly? C'mon.

#9 Kryptomaniac

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

Just a quick note, your rough estimate for a BIS list, unless I missed something, I am 99% sure the Necklace of the Terra-Cotta Archer is a trash drop, and you can't obtain it on heroic. I've heard rumors that it is a zone drop which would hint at the suggestion that it could come from bosses too, similar to Fyn's flickering dagger.

So if this is the case, the necklace off of Megaera would be better. If anyone knows otherwise on being able to obtain a heroic version of the Necklace of the Terra-Cotta archer, let me know.

#10 Pathal

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 05:43 PM

I was informed it would be found on the BMAH. I see no problem with using a/some BMAH items for a BiS list. It's a set of gear to produce optimal DPS and to generate sample EP weights, it's not some requirement for ranking or calling yourself good.

If it's entirely unobtainable, then I would redo it.

#11 Zneaker

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:33 AM

For many players, capping is inevitable with the 4 piece. But you can help make the most of it with a program to repeat key presses and/or enabling the ability queue. I've been using AutoHotKey ever since Heroic Rag progression was giving me carpal tunnel.


I've been trying out AutoHotKey and it looks good. Just to check I'm using the right code, what is your code for your Sinister Strike and do you have any other Roguetips on AutoHotKey?

#12 Pathal

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:57 PM

I only have it set to repeat a key every 50ms for a few specific keys. From what I remember...

First line in a code block hooks to a specific key. Second line causes it to loop within the curly brackets so long as a specific key is pressed (that's what the "p" is for). Third line emulates a hardware action, and triggers a key press. Fourth line causes the script to pause for 50ms. Then it marks the end of the loop and ends the code segment if the key is no longer being pressed down.

Further info is here (for anyone who hasn't seen it yet).

Spoiler


#13 Stoodinfire

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:08 PM

Well, gotta say thanks for that Pathal, I made a AHK commandline like this:
+3::
sendplay +3
setkeydelay 60
return

And it ended up lagging me out horribly if I kept it down for more than 5 seconds, I guess it's from the Que system from Blizz being flooded or something, but I literally could not control my character for ~4-5 seconds

My scripting experience is somewhat limited and I messed around with a ton of different commandlines, some with rather interesting results (like running hitting 1 translating into mouseclicking 1 and watching my pointer fly down to 1 and my camera go to hell mid-fight lol)

But even so, do you know if the Assassination thread has been completely put on hold? Haven't seen much new info there for a while :(

#14 sneakyluap

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:56 AM

Hi first time poster here, in my opinion regarding staggering or stacking combat cooldowns, even if you have a solid connection that can input .5 gcd at the same rate bliz servers interact with it, you still need to trigger finishers which in effect can make you energy cap anyways due to relentless strikes, what I'm curious about though is on shadowcraft when you uncheck the stack cooldowns option in settings haste devalues more than if you stack them, shouldn't the opposite be true and it should gain value instead when staggering cooldowns?

Also if you go down the route of staggering which should you use first? I'v been trying killing spree, adrenaline rush, shadowblades for quicker ramp up time to blow through deep insight with shadowblades, but im unsure if this would always be true given the different fight mechanics or it will be a fight by fight basis. Also how would you think hero on the pull would interact with this rotation and when would be the best time to blow your other pot?

#15 Stoodinfire

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:31 PM

Unfortunatly, I can't help you too much with the t15-4p(I take it that is what you're basing this around) since I haven't gotten more than 2-piece yet which I broke off again.

But as a general rule I go by (this is personal preference I reckon), I always open with Ambush for the CP's,
RS, SS>5CP, Killing Spree>S&D>SB/AR/other cooldowns, trinkets and similar
This makes you able to get S&D up as soon as KS ends while still not wasting those seconds during KS when it is useless anyways, and also makes sure KS is on CD so it can get affected by Restless Blades during SB/AR.
Usually by the time my SB/AR ends I've managed to get enough finishers to almost have KS off CD again which is nice.

As when it comes to staggering I reckon you should not need with 4p, but if you're like me and don't have it I have to delay using SB or AR (depending on Insight level, high means I pop SB first, low means I pop AR first to get it up before SB.

Before I got to the hastelevel I'm at right now, popping everything at once, even with Lust meant I barely got energycapped, but now I hit energycap in like 1.5sec if I do it during lust.

But this is for the most part my own personal experience with my current gearlevels though, and this will likely change as I get 4p and another RPPM trinket (have to say, those RPPM are dodgy as hell)

The more high-end raiders than me might have other opinions, and so might the theorycrafters we have here.

#16 Ondersjaak

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:43 PM

This makes you able to get S&D up as soon as KS ends while still not wasting those seconds during KS when it is useless anyways


I don't think this is correct. I'm pretty sure auto-attacks continue to happen during KS, so you need to have S&D up before you use it. Ideally, you want to get S&D up immediately after your Ambush opener.

#17 sneakyluap

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:30 PM

Yes you want SnD up before killing spree as auto attacks still trigger during it, also killing spree is a good energy regen tool in its own right so you want to completely deplete your energy before popping it on pull.

#18 Oren

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:25 PM

Both of the above posters are correct; getting snd up as soon as possible is paramount. Opener+RvS just so you don't cap in the meantime is about the extent of what should happen before snd goes up. Beyond that though, With anticipation you can push to moderate and sometimes even deep insight before you use ks, and should absolutely be doing so. In addition to more damage on your KS, having those stored points then subsequently subtracts an additional 20 seconds from your ar/sb cd at the cost of "at most one finisher gcd that might leave you capped" (my arbitrary approximation).

Thus: Amb>RvS>SnD>SS to 5+5>KS>pop cds>rupt>dps as normal. Obviously this bears +/- augmentation based on pot duration and trinket procs.

#19 Pottsy

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 04:37 AM

Despite combat modelling well, it seems according to sources such a raidbots, it's either pulling much lower dps than assas due to difference between theoretical and practical, or its being underplayed by the top tier raiders. Which of these is the case, and why?

#20 Chult86

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:06 AM

I'm not sure about other servers, but on Illidan and our instance servers, input lag (where you press an ability and it takes over a second for it to go off) makes combat unplayable for the most part. During the initial AR/SB, I miss around 6-9 globals worth of damage, because even though I have a .5sec GCD, it takes 1-1.5sec for an ability to even go off. It's incredibly annoying, and it happens as Assassination as well, but it's not nearly as penalizing to Assassination.
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