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[5.4 Combat] I'm Not Dead Yet


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#21 Shadefoot

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 01:52 PM

Despite combat modelling well, it seems according to sources such a raidbots, it's either pulling much lower dps than assas due to difference between theoretical and practical, or its being underplayed by the top tier raiders. Which of these is the case, and why?


If this page on Noxxic is anything to go by, looking at the different ilvl rankings, Combat is seriously gear-dependent. If you haven't got BiS, you're languishing down the lower realms of the rankings no matter what.

#22 Viper

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:00 PM

I'm not sure about other servers, but on Illidan and our instance servers, input lag (where you press an ability and it takes over a second for it to go off) makes combat unplayable for the most part. During the initial AR/SB, I miss around 6-9 globals worth of damage, because even though I have a .5sec GCD, it takes 1-1.5sec for an ability to even go off. It's incredibly annoying, and it happens as Assassination as well, but it's not nearly as penalizing to Assassination.

Normally I don't have any issues at all, but I get this lag specifically during raidwide effects like Megaera's Rampage even though my personal FPS is doing just fine (high-end pc). I'll hit Mutilate and it'll be a good second or so before the combo points or a Blindside proc actually show up on me. Makes the 4pc SB time mostly a crapshoot of whether I'm going to waste some CPs or not if it's during one of these lag periods in the fight. I can imagine it's awful for Combat there.

#23 Oren

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 06:19 PM

Despite combat modelling well, it seems according to sources such a raidbots, it's either pulling much lower dps than assas due to difference between theoretical and practical, or its being underplayed by the top tier raiders. Which of these is the case, and why?


I played combat all through the last tier and always thought it was competitive but underplayed, yet near the end I switched to muti and even with significantly worse weapons (upgraded heroics to non-upgrade normal) I felt like it was an overall dps increase.

I can't really speak to why sims are returning such different values than actual play (obviously there is going to be some loss, but I agree that the disparity is both overly large and odd), but I do think there is something to be said of how timing works for the different specs, particularly with respect to trinkets and current trinket functionality. The timing for combat cooldowns is pretty tight, and doesn't really allow for much waiting to line trinkets up and so forth, as doing so would often result in losing a cooldown overall and thus be a decrease in that fashion.
Assassination provides a little more leeway both in the long duration of Vendetta and in the cooldown timers themselves; we know going into a fight precisely how many vendettas and blades we'll be able to use, and can plan accordingly to line up trinket procs/heroism/whatever with cooldowns. I think that the...I'll play nice and say "unpredictability" of the trinkets in this tier further exacerbate this sort of issue.

In a different thread Ahdehl was talking about the pitfalls of a haste heavy build he tried and that while sometimes things procced often and lined up perfectly, other times it was just a complete wash. I think that's rather analogous to this conversation as well, as applied to the differing specs and the amount of rng that goes into their success. Its hard to argue with consistency.

#24 chultt

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:20 PM

I've had good experiences with Combat, and can hit the benchmarks provided by Shadowcraft, often exceeding them. I have the benefit of being very close to the server I play on however, with my MS being around 10-15 all of the time. Server being relatively low/med pop probably helps too.

#25 Lacoca

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:44 AM

I've had good experiences with Combat, and can hit the benchmarks provided by Shadowcraft, often exceeding them. I have the benefit of being very close to the server I play on however, with my MS being around 10-15 all of the time. Server being relatively low/med pop probably helps too.


Well, in my case shadowcraft says the dps difference between combat and multi is about 6k. Actually I have a better combat mainhand, that's why I'm playing combat at the moment. But if the actual play of assassination /w low ilvl weapons provides a high dps, why is shadowcraft showing us other dps numbers? It's a little bit irritating.

#26 Knarcus

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:04 PM

I also have good experiences with combat now. When I acquired the T15 4p bonus as Assass, I was curious how I would perform as combat. I played in T14 mainly combat but switched to Assassination for T15 content because of the plethora of buffs they gave to assa, therefore I had lots of experience with combat (normal content though)

I don't have gear specifically for combat except for 2x (normal version though, don't know how to link normal version)

When I changed the weapons and spec in shadowcraft and hit regem and reforge, it suggested a steep increase in dps of 19053 (+11.85%).
That made me want to try out combat again. So I spent my time in several LFRs trying out combat. I accidentally forgot to reforge, I was at only 5% hit and too much mastery and too little haste. However, I was performing compatible to my assassination dps.
Also I came to the conclusion that 0.5s GCD is too much for me and got myself an Autohotkey script as suggested here previously after I had some pain in the wrist.
The burst of AR+SB is amazing, but hard to handle (not wasting a single GCD, not wasting a potential CP)

After fixing my reforges I used combat this week and performed better than I did as Assassination.
Link to the log: Dashboard - 01-05 19:28 - Moo Fighters - World of Logs

Comparing T15 combat to T14 combat is almost night and day. You waste a lot of energy inevitably and are almost not energy starved at all. You are not energy starved until you hit the point where KS and AR are both on long cd (60s+) which is I believe after the 2nd AR+SB

The range increase to BF is really making things easier.
Playing combat again was such a blast, and I don't see myself switching back to assa any time soon.

#27 Rfeann

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:14 PM

Well, in my case shadowcraft says the dps difference between combat and multi is about 6k. Actually I have a better combat mainhand, that's why I'm playing combat at the moment. But if the actual play of assassination /w low ilvl weapons provides a high dps, why is shadowcraft showing us other dps numbers? It's a little bit irritating.

Because ShadowCraft isn't intended to be an arbiter of DPS performance. It's not engineered for the purpose of allowing us to directly compare each spec's damage output, and it's not set up to accurately reflect the amount of damage a rogue should be putting out on any given fight in this expansion.

SC is intended to be used as an optimization tool, to show you how various gear changes, enchants, reforges, gems, buffs and (in some cases) rotational tweaks might be able to impact your DPS potential. It's meant to help you gauge the *relative* value of changes, not the absolute value of your DPS in raids.

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#28 Lacoca

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:37 PM

SC is intended to be used as an optimization tool, to show you how various gear changes, enchants, reforges, gems, buffs and (in some cases) rotational tweaks might be able to impact your DPS potential. It's meant to help you gauge the *relative* value of changes, not the absolute value of your DPS in raids.


That's how I use SC.
But I was wondering why assassination perform better even if the calculated dps is lower compared to the combat spec. I'll will spend some gold and give it a try.

#29 dommy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:47 PM

I only have it set to repeat a key every 50ms for a few specific keys. From what I remember...

First line in a code block hooks to a specific key. Second line causes it to loop within the curly brackets so long as a specific key is pressed (that's what the "p" is for). Third line emulates a hardware action, and triggers a key press. Fourth line causes the script to pause for 50ms. Then it marks the end of the loop and ends the code segment if the key is no longer being pressed down.

Further info is here (for anyone who hasn't seen it yet).

Spoiler


I have a preliminary question about this before I go ahead messing around with it.

If I use the "3" key for Sinister Strike and set up the script to be enabled while the "3" key is being held down, would I still be able to continue to quickly tap the "3" key to Sinister Strike (while AR/SB are down)? Or will quickly tapping it toggle the script on and off and totally ruin my day?

#30 Pathal

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:58 PM

That code is for spamming "3"s while holding down the 3.

So to fit an AR+SB in there, you would just release the 3 key, hit your AR+SB macro, and go back to holding down 3 until you had 4-5 CP (depending on anticipation). AKA, you would only hold it down for a second then swap to your eviscerate button.

Setting it up to toggle is a different script.

#31 dommy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:03 PM

Yeah, that's cool. I guess my query was more about the semantics of "how long must a key be pressed before it counts as a 'hold.'"

Thanks though.

#32 Rfeann

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:24 PM

That's how I use SC.
But I was wondering why assassination perform better even if the calculated dps is lower compared to the combat spec. I'll will spend some gold and give it a try.

Assassination performs better because, as I just stated, the calculated DPS is not intended to be a reflection of your expected DPS potential on any given raid fight. Those DPS calculations are based on a whole range of assumptions regarding fight length, fight mechanics, positioning, proper rotation execution and cooldown timing (among other factors) that simply don't apply to any actual raid fight in existence.

It may well be that Combat or Subtlety could outperform Assassination given conditions that are optimal for those specs. But those conditions have manifested themselves very infrequently during this expansion, so we flock to Assassination.

I have a blog. The Red-Hatted Rogue Reporter. Is what it is called. By me.


#33 Pathal

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:42 PM

Yeah, that's cool. I guess my query was more about the semantics of "how long must a key be pressed before it counts as a 'hold.'"

Thanks though.


It counts as pressed the moment you press it, and it counts as held down the entire time it's held down.

#34 Psilocin

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:15 PM

Assassination performs better because, as I just stated, the calculated DPS is not intended to be a reflection of your expected DPS potential on any given raid fight. Those DPS calculations are based on a whole range of assumptions regarding fight length, fight mechanics, positioning, proper rotation execution and cooldown timing (among other factors) that simply don't apply to any actual raid fight in existence.

It may well be that Combat or Subtlety could outperform Assassination given conditions that are optimal for those specs. But those conditions have manifested themselves very infrequently during this expansion, so we flock to Assassination.


See, I'm not sure I really get this. SC and other sims/theorycrafting utilities have Combat above Assassination at BiS, and it seems at 4/4 it would almost always be; with my current gear (with the addition of 2 pieces to make the 4/4 set and a decent MH), it is an increase of 15k (single target, no BF). There are a ton of fights where I just don't see the mechanics making up that great of a difference for Assassination (granted I'm just getting into heroics, but I'm thinking the ones with typically long time on bosses, Patchwerk type because 'sin is definitely more forgiving when you have time off boss etc, and where Vendetta vs AR wouldn't be that significant). So is it a bias towards assassination that are keeping the "real dps" numbers higher for them, is it just plain luck of itemization (though it seems like there are more available weapons for combat), or what? In the last tier, I had both H daggers and fists, so I would swap specs according to utility for fights. Is this not being done also? Just seems Assassination is way too skewed when considering actual numbers and potentials.

#35 Seliathan

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:31 PM

Combat suffers from being extremely dependant on utilizing the 4piece bonus, since it has that big an impact on your dps - theoretically. In my current gear setup the 4piece is valued at 18k DPS, whereas for assassination it is somewhere around 2k. Unfortunately the biggest dps gain ain't from the reduced energy cost but the reduced global cooldown. The 0.5sec GCD is almost impossible to use though since it is influenced by your lag aswell as server lag. In reality the value of the 4piece is therefore diminished. The more the server or you lag the less dps you are going to do compared to your theoretical dps. Assassination doesn't have any issues like this.

Combat also has stronger secondary stat scaling and it only theoretically gets even with assa when having near BiS gear. Since no one really cares about BiS in progression though, assa was and still is ahead by quite alot when it comes to raw dps. The next tier will be more interesting since both combat and especially sub are scaling pretty well, but as of now getting 100% out of your gear as assasination is not that hard to accomplish, which is why it was the strongest and pretty much unbeaten spec in the current heroic raiding progression.

#36 titcch

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:50 AM

Combat suffers from being extremely dependant on utilizing the 4piece bonus, since it has that big an impact on your dps - theoretically. In my current gear setup the 4piece is valued at 18k DPS, whereas for assassination it is somewhere around 2k. Unfortunately the biggest dps gain ain't from the reduced energy cost but the reduced global cooldown. The 0.5sec GCD is almost impossible to use though since it is influenced by your lag aswell as server lag. In reality the value of the 4piece is therefore diminished. The more the server or you lag the less dps you are going to do compared to your theoretical dps. Assassination doesn't have any issues like this.

Combat also has stronger secondary stat scaling and it only theoretically gets even with assa when having near BiS gear. Since no one really cares about BiS in progression though, assa was and still is ahead by quite alot when it comes to raw dps. The next tier will be more interesting since both combat and especially sub are scaling pretty well, but as of now getting 100% out of your gear as assasination is not that hard to accomplish, which is why it was the strongest and pretty much unbeaten spec in the current heroic raiding progression.


I don't know about you and fortunately I don't suffer from any "lag" you talk about but I played as Combat through 13/13HC and comparing logs with Assassination there was only maybe the top10 Chinese Assassination rogues who could output more than my Combat numbers (There is no doubt using proper trinkets/weapons that Assassination will come out on top overall at the end of a tier).

Btw, do we have some kind of Combat trinket list for this tier? My Shadowcraft has my BiS with Juju/Renataki's TF HC and I was just wondering if Shadowcraft models the trinkets properly as I was led to believe that Talisman was up there?

#37 Seliathan

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:11 PM

I don't know about you and fortunately I don't suffer from any "lag" you talk about


This definitely makes a huge difference since I am running on a crappy machine and oftentimes, especially during bloodlust, I simply cannot benefit off the 4piece at all since for some reason my abilities start to delay for like half a second longer than they should, completely negating the gcd reduction.

I do share your observation that outperforming assa throughout progression definitely is possible (I've been running combat myself ever since I got my hands on a tf normal weapon and the 4piece and am performing quite well) but it is both gear and fight dependant. That said, I don't think the gap between the two specs is as big as most people make it out to be (at least once you get your hands on the 4piece), but rather that most people started with assassination since at the beginning of the raidtier it really was the better spec and haven't switched over yet for whatever reasons. This goes both ways of course, assa wasn't that far ahead back then, and combat ain't now. It really comes down to what gear you have and how comfortable you are with either spec, which is something I really was looking forward to after the last few raidtiers basically forced you into one spec or the other with no alternatives.

As far as trinkets go, I have no clear answer myself. Currently running Talisman/Juju and I am quite happy with the results. I do unfortunately not have access to the other options right now, else I'd get some parses to compare their uptime which should be enough for some rough estimates. I cannot imagine Talisman being outperformed by Juju/Renataki though, with that many rppm mechanics influencing our dps the haste proc is going to be way ahead. These are all assumptions though.

#38 chrisirl

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:47 AM

I don't know about you and fortunately I don't suffer from any "lag" you talk about but I played as Combat through 13/13HC and comparing logs with Assassination there was only maybe the top10 Chinese Assassination rogues who could output more than my Combat numbers (There is no doubt using proper trinkets/weapons that Assassination will come out on top overall at the end of a tier).

Btw, do we have some kind of Combat trinket list for this tier? My Shadowcraft has my BiS with Juju/Renataki's TF HC and I was just wondering if Shadowcraft models the trinkets properly as I was led to believe that Talisman was up there?


Since this is the combat thread, and you clearly have the spec down, could you maybe give the community some feedback as to what you believe you do differently than everyone else? Clearly, assassination pulls ahead (when ilvl and trinkets, meta are all equal) for the average player. Maybe you could help some of us lesser experienced with combat better understand your success. I just tonight completed the 4pc and tried it out for the first time this tier, and it seemed like my fingers were going to fall off, and the damage was okay but not near what I saw as assassination pre 4pc. I'd be interested if you discovered any tricks along the way for certain fights to improve edps. Thank you.

#39 nbk2011

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:30 PM

Does anyone know the value Mark for Death vs anticipation? Seems like MFD could potentially be a decent choice for combat especially in a long fight.

#40 Seliathan

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:24 PM

I just tonight completed the 4pc and tried it out for the first time this tier, and it seemed like my fingers were going to fall off, and the damage was okay but not near what I saw as assassination pre 4pc. I'd be interested if you discovered any tricks along the way for certain fights to improve edps. Thank you.


What you definitely need, although you should already have it before getting your 4piece, is some sort of anticipation charge tracking. If you're interested in a simple weak aura string, just PM me. Basically you'll do the same you did before getting the 4piece when AR+SB is used: Keep RvS/SnD up, SS up until you got 3+ charges, and finish when you got 3+ charges. Once you finished with 3 Anticipation Charges, it basically comes down to: finisher+2ss when you have 3+ charges, finisher+3ss when you sit at 2 or less charges. Since you will build 4 CP with 2 SS you should count on losing 1 CP, or 1 charge, with every set of finisher+2 SS.
It is also somewhat important with how many CP you finish your AR, since you will most likely sit at 100 energy and don't want to waste another second or two energycapped right after it. Going into AR with a maximum of 2 CP works best for me, that way you get exactly the right amount of styles+finishers into a single AR+SB to come out of it with 4 or 5 anticipation charges with your last 0.5sec GCD and then have 3 to 5 SS right after to rebuild your anticipation charges, KS, and finish twice to reduce your cooldowns by 20sec already. Also remember that while all your abilities benefit from the gcd reduction of the 4piece, the AR glyph only works on a selection of spells. So if you're responsible for keeping weakened armor up for example, do it before using AR+SB.

As far as "tricks" go, you will want to use your cooldowns the moment they come off CD, but deplete your energy beforehand. As long as you have a certain control over temporary buffs such as trinketprocs, another rogues tricks or bloodlust/racials, you should stack them whenever possible. Delaying the usage of KS or AR in my opinion is not worth the effort, since you will most likely lose out on one AR and/or KS. With a near 100% uptime, you can expect to have 1 AR every ~60-70 seconds and delaying KS for a higher Bandits Guile stack is only worth it when you only have 1 or 2 styles remaining to get there.

Regarding the current content, remember that maximizing overall DPS and doing the "right" DPS to beat the encounter are two different objectives. Since you will basically have AR come off cooldown every minute, you can use this knowledge to have it ready for important adds (the 3 big ones @ horridon) or important phases that you will want to cut as short as possible (iron qon p2). AR is one of the strongest cooldowns out there, not because of the raw dps it provides, but because it is available so often and you having absolute control over when that happens.


Does anyone know the value Mark for Death vs anticipation? Seems like MFD could potentially be a decent choice for combat especially in a long fight.


Playing combat without anticipation, especially with the t15 4piece, is something I wouldn't even suggest to my mortal enemy. While anticipation doesn't provide an active dps increase, and MfD does, anticipation makes your life so much simpler and will oftentimes safe you from overcapping CP or energy. The dps you gain by preventing that from happening is definitely worth more, than the 5CP every 60 second MfD provides.




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