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[5.4 Combat] I'm Not Dead Yet


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#41 sneakyluap

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:45 PM

Since this is the combat thread, and you clearly have the spec down, could you maybe give the community some feedback as to what you believe you do differently than everyone else? Clearly, assassination pulls ahead (when ilvl and trinkets, meta are all equal) for the average player. Maybe you could help some of us lesser experienced with combat better understand your success. I just tonight completed the 4pc and tried it out for the first time this tier, and it seemed like my fingers were going to fall off, and the damage was okay but not near what I saw as assassination pre 4pc. I'd be interested if you discovered any tricks along the way for certain fights to improve edps. Thank you.


I can confirm Tiitch knows what hes talking about, 13/13 hc guild and rank 1 on WOL for 10 hc/norm on nearly every fight last few tiers as combat (he's on my server and well known so checked his gear when I considered going to combat), you do need very good ping to make the most of it and there is alot of factors that can massively impact the final dps score on a given fight, the problem with combat though imo is the spec isn't rewarding enough, a perfectly played combat rotation is on par with a perfectly played assassination rotation however assassination is 10 times easier to pull off.

Pooling energy for insight, knowing when to stack or stagger SB+adr rush, knowing when to hold off on other cds and wait for killing spree (20secs left on cd or below), right time to reveal strike, lining up trinket procs with insight levels, managing SnD so you ALWAYS refresh it on zero insight level, consistently having sub 40ms, being in a guild strong enough to attain a 530 item level + 4 set, etc etc.

The problem is unless you can pull all of this off every raid then assassination will be a stronger spec for you, only 1-3% of rogues will get to the point where combat beats out assass or draws level for them this tier imo.

#42 Kryptomaniac

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:57 AM

I'm quite curious, I know extremely good trinket procs for assassination can make up a large difference of DPS depending on your lucky. Using heroic thunderforged Renataki's for example i notice quite a large difference in damage if it procs more then others.

How drastic is the damage dealt as combat overall with good or bad trinket procs? Is it less critical to your overall damage, about the same, or more so?

#43 sneakyluap

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:26 AM

I'm no expert on combat, however im no stranger to assassination and the big rng factor it has with the new system of trinkets, I do think combat has more a skill cap factor to the rotation though, among all the things I mentioned I guess pooling energy at green/yellow insight levels to get a full yellow/red insight with a rentaki's proc could net a considerable dps gain and is more manageable than it would be in assassination.

I guess with assassination given the same ilvl there is a minute dps difference between a mediocre and good rogue, whereas combat is about making split second decisions and a more instinctive spec to play making the trinket procs less of an rng factor, knowing when to pool for trinket procs, when to sit in yellow insight, when to delay cds, when not to etc

#44 Seliathan

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:00 PM

While all of that is true, don't forget that with the new RPPM mechanic for every single trinket available (except for the VP trinket of course), successfully delaying abilities or even pooling for a proc isn't as easy as it was with ICD procs. Im currently playing with weak aura strings that show the current chance to proc for a RPPM trinket but so far I cannot tell whether it actually increased my dps. With the somewhat short cooldown on AR/KS thanks to Restless Blades, delaying CDs to coincide with procs is very hard to pull off without losing a single usage or two.

Delaying AR/KS for a maximum of 5 seconds when your Renatakis procced the same second they came off cooldown definitely is worth it, but don't overdo it. Remember that just because you came out of AR/KS doesn't mean your DPS drops by alot, you're still energycapped and have 4 or 5 GCDs of action compared to not doing much right before popping AR/KS. Purposely delaying cooldowns without Renatakis having procced yet ain't worthwhile though since you cannot predict how long it will take for another proc. The only exception would be when the no-proc-protection kicks in infight, which is trackable with Weak Auras using the formula posted by Xarishflar.

#45 Pathal

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:29 PM

Well, there's several points that could be made without getting mathy.

- Combat values Agi slightly less than Assassination does, DPS per point.
- The two trinkets (BJ and RSC) are agi procs.
- Combat likes haste, haste should reduce the amount of RNG, but only a little.

Combat should have slightly less significant, yet more consistent procs, and more of them. If we consider all that, you would expect combat to have less RNG with RPPM trinkets than Assassination does.

#46 Ech1zen

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 03:40 AM

While what you are saying is true there is something you miss about it. Combat is by a large margin doing more damage on CD's then assasination. With 4 piece combats burst is 50% of combat's damage (or even more, if someone has info please post it) so proc should provide more boost in dps in combat then in assa. it's quite easy to do math though. All you need to do is calculate how much burst provides dps for both specs and multiply it by increase in main stat from trinkets.

PS: But for the haste procs it's much more complicated.

#47 Pathal

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:31 AM

Yeah, but it does less without CDs as a result. Since RPPM trinkets by design are intended to be unpredictable, calculating their value on outliers (the procs line up with CDs) isn't a good way to approach the topic. We don't measure Combat's RNG based around 50% effective RvS CP procs compared to 0% since they're impractical and highly unlikely.

Also, Combat's CDs don't contribute 50% of Combat's DPS. Even in the best gear, it's only in the 20-25% range.

#48 Norgaard

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:40 AM

How is Combat shaping up now with its revealing strike longer effect buff? Has it been buffed to match Assassination yet?

#49 Shnkapotomus

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:41 AM

How is Combat shaping up now with its revealing strike longer effect buff? Has it been buffed to match Assassination yet?


I don't imagine it's going to add any significant amount of damage. More of a QoL buff.

#50 titcch

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:16 AM

Since this is the combat thread, and you clearly have the spec down, could you maybe give the community some feedback as to what you believe you do differently than everyone else? Clearly, assassination pulls ahead (when ilvl and trinkets, meta are all equal) for the average player. Maybe you could help some of us lesser experienced with combat better understand your success. I just tonight completed the 4pc and tried it out for the first time this tier, and it seemed like my fingers were going to fall off, and the damage was okay but not near what I saw as assassination pre 4pc. I'd be interested if you discovered any tricks along the way for certain fights to improve edps. Thank you.



There is a lot of factors which play into Combat at the moment but the Anticipation talent when used to full effect with insight levels can play a massive part into your DPS.

Server/Client lag, how a boss is tanked and if you keep up a rotation perfectly while under the 4-set bonus will determine if you can pull high numbers, if you get a parry or a delay in lag during any AR/SB burst then you'll lose insane amounts of DPS and this is where most people fall this tier and it seems the spec is modeled around the 4-set only.

I mention the boss tanking because this week on Jin'rokh due to our DPS whore tanks they face the boss towards the middle of the water at the start when hero is used and it's either 40% damage while facing towards the boss or 0% damage while being behind the boss and lets just say a single parry had me stuck on 100 energy for a while!

But yes, lets just say when we had an 8 hour raid night on Lei Shen my fingers barely worked, they hurt so bad!

#51 titcch

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:29 AM

I don't imagine it's going to add any significant amount of damage. More of a QoL buff.


I'm too lazy do to the actual damage math but in a 386 second fight (I'm taking my Megaera HC log for this: Details for Tiitch - 15-05 19:33 - Inner Sanctum - World of Logs) which resulted in me using 22 revealing strikes to keep the buff up full time we can take a look at how much energy can be saved!

When the RvS buff comes into play, I would have had to use 16 revealing strikes to keep the buff up full time which would have saved me 240 energy over the entire fight (Which is not huge but it frees you up to use SS instead which is more powerful).

#52 Jinjiro

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 02:56 PM

I'd wager it's around a 150-200 DPS increase, given that Sinister Strike hits for 4-5k more than Revealing, and using SS instead of RS should grant a few more combo points over the course of a fight. Nothing spectacular, but I'm looking to switch to Combat soon so any quality of life changes are most welcome indeed.

#53 Tekloth

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:14 PM

Has anyone done any math on Rune of Re-origination?

Would be cool to know if it's worth anything for combat.. With my current stats I'm getting around ~45% haste with the proc but is it worth it when you lose the crit and mastery?

#54 Warasha

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:28 PM

I got my Rune yesterday and I was not sure how I can weave it into my stats. I did only one test because I don`t really have time and I came here looking for more info but yeah..
I had more KS, SF and AR on the target than without the trinket - I replaced my bad juju with RuRo.
522 ilvl with optimal reforging I got +23k haste for a total of 32k which was 21+ energy regen. My only concern is with the part 'when your attacks hit' of the tooltip. Other than that its obvious that you should pop the major cds right after the effect drops otherwise its a significant dps loss. Especially with 43 energy regen during AR :/

#55 titcch

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:13 AM

I got my Rune yesterday and I was not sure how I can weave it into my stats. I did only one test because I don`t really have time and I came here looking for more info but yeah..
I had more KS, SF and AR on the target than without the trinket - I replaced my bad juju with RuRo.
522 ilvl with optimal reforging I got +23k haste for a total of 32k which was 21+ energy regen. My only concern is with the part 'when your attacks hit' of the tooltip. Other than that its obvious that you should pop the major cds right after the effect drops otherwise its a significant dps loss. Especially with 43 energy regen during AR :/


I passed on the RoRo TF HC this week because it has a massive flaw for fights that you use Hero/Bloodlust at the start, I used it for an entire reset and it was just horrible having 200% haste, 0 crit & 0 mastery for the time it was up. Being able to crit for massive amounts during AR/SB & getting those Main Gauche procs off are nice too.

You might be getting more KS, SB & AR due to being able to do more finishers based on the higher energy regen from the trinket but I can guarantee you for parts of the fight you'll lose so much energy from being capped (It's literally impossible to not be energy capped when it procs during AR/SB unless you delay the cooldowns which is not a good thing as you want to be using them ASAP).

I'd personally stick with Renatakis + Bad Juju although I've never had a Talisman of Bloodlust to test yet but can imagine it not being as good as the current two trinkets I use at the moment since you'll always get full effect from double agility procs no matter what you are doing where as if you have 5 stacks from the talisman there is always chance for you to overcap your energy. Don't take my word on that though I am slightly scared of the random energy regen from Combat.

#56 Rfeann

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 04:43 PM

Have you guys read the Icy Veins dev interview? If you did, did their response to the question about the T15 4pc bonus... you know, make sense to you? I must be reading it wrong, because it's not clicking in my brain.

[Q:] The Tier 15 4-piece bonus for Rogues reduces the global cooldown of their abilities to 0.7 second (instead of 1 second). When this was introduced, you mentioned that you are "normally very reluctant to reduce the GCD lower than 1 sec" and that this "was very much an experiment". What are your conclusions on this experiment, after a few months? Do you intend to do similar experiments with other classes?

[A:] We always have issues with the server being able to accept input fast enough to support very small GCDs (say less than 1 sec or so). In this raiding tier in particular we unfortunately had some widespread server lag problems, which made it harder to evaluate whether the 0.7 second GCD alone made rogue abilities feel unresponsive. Our hunch is the low GCD solved this specific problem with tier 15, but we’re unlikely to do it often.


Can somebody with a more functional brain than me explain what they meant by "this specific problem"? The only problem they refer to in the response is widespread server lag, and obviously a lower GCD ain't gonna help with that.

(Edit: I swear that, when I first posted this, it somehow made perfect sense to me that it should go in the Combat thread.)

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#57 Enzo90910

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 05:03 PM

Can somebody with a more functional brain than me explain what they meant by "this specific problem"? The only problem they refer to in the response is widespread server lag, and obviously a lower GCD ain't gonna help with that.


I read the problem as being tacitly know as "energy capping during AR". I would translate it as: They tried a lower GCD to solve Energy capping, weren't sure if it would work because of the possible lag induced by a low GCD, and can not exactly evaluate the output because much lag is currently induced by other factors, preventing them to measure exactly how much lag is induced by the low GCD.

#58 Rfeann

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:18 PM

Looks like you win the prize. :)

@Ghostcrawler: Neina was right. It was energy capping during AR. Low GCD helps burn energy, but not a solution we will use often.

@Ghostcrawler: We are a bit defensive about GCD. Players always want less, because fast, responsive combat is fun.

@Ghostcrawler: And while WoW combat is responsive (hint one of the secrets of our success) we are a server game and can't do Street Fighter.


It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for the Tier 16 bonuses. I ain't no crazy math wizard, but given how powerful this tier's 4pc is for Combat specifically, I imagine the next set of bonuses would have to be awfully strong as well for Combat rogues to feel it's worthwhile to upgrade and not simply cling to Tier 15 for dear life until they hit level 95 in the next expansion.

But how can that be accomplished without 1) making rogues as a whole too strong in PvE, 2) making PvE tier gear desirable in competitive PvP or 3) exacerbating the huge DPS performance gap between Combat-with-4pc and Combat-without-4pc?

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#59 Shnkapotomus

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:49 PM

If they really have to they will just nerf the set bonus so we don't keep it for the entire next tier. They've done this before for other classes.

#60 Enzo90910

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 04:08 PM

But how can that be accomplished without 1) making rogues as a whole too strong in PvE, 2) making PvE tier gear desirable in competitive PvP or 3) exacerbating the huge DPS performance gap between Combat-with-4pc and Combat-without-4pc?


I expect the goal was to bake at least part of the 4p natively for Combat for patch 5.4. But they wanted to test it during T15, to see if their servers would keep up. Since they don't seem to be able to study this (the effects of a low GCD on server lag) as extensively as they wanted to, they will probably have to make other plans.




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