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[5.4 Combat] I'm Not Dead Yet


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#101 Astraar

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:51 AM

I am also getting better results with the shoulder as off-set.

4/5 - Shoulder offset 403804.2 DPS Astraar @ Frostwolf-EU - ShadowCraft
4/5 - Chest offset 403079.2 DPS Astraar @ Frostwolf-EU - ShadowCraft

even the head off-set piece gives me more DPS

4/5 - Head offset 403401.3 DPS Astraar @ Frostwolf-EU - ShadowCraft

but the difference is so little it really doesn't matter

#102 Pathal

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:43 PM

I'm holding off on updating it because I believe Hellscream's Razor can be double upgraded which makes it BiS, and I haven't had time yet to sit through and figure out how that may affect reforges. Reforges can cause a ripple effect.

#103 Rontu

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:54 PM

the heirloom items from garrosh already come double upgraded, but they however cannot be warforged.

#104 Pathal

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 07:25 PM

Fixed then. Virtually no shift in EP weights, everything rounded to their hundredths place remained the same.

I did, however, find higher DPS with the rings I had included previously than I did Astraar's though.

#105 Astraar

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 07:12 AM

You are right, it's because of the boots. The Mastery/Haste are obviously better, my fault.

#106 Psilocin

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 02:56 PM

Well, after finishing you always have 1 CP from Ruthlessness, and SS builds 2+CP per usage, so you'll always get 5 CP no matter what after styling twice. You basically keep going SS-SS-Finisher and in case you're lucky with procs you might have 2 or 3 anticipation charges and only need one after finishing the next time. Also, there's really no reason to pool Anticipation charges during AR+SB, yep.


Sorry to beat a dead horse, but after playing Combat a little, re-reading the guide on the first page, and Tiitch's comment, it sounds like I do want to be pooling Anticipation charges if it will allow me to use Evis at a higher insight level (makes no difference for Rupture correct? Since my understanding is that Rupture damage changes with Insight levels). I would assume this would apply during AR+SB also. I feel like I've gotten down the rotation but haven't been maximizing my DPS as I could and is probably due to BG management.

#107 phup

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:37 PM

isn't BG level tied to the player now and not the target? so won't a rupture at deep insight be snapshotted and stay at that damage level regardless of what happens to the player after that?

End result being move as many finishers as you can into deeper insight levels without energy capping or wasting combo points but you don't have to worry about exactly when you do a rupture, For example a rupture right at the end of deep insight won't be immediately weakened. It stays at the deep insight level damage (i think).

#108 Seliathan

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:07 PM

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but after playing Combat a little, re-reading the guide on the first page, and Tiitch's comment, it sounds like I do want to be pooling Anticipation charges if it will allow me to use Evis at a higher insight level (makes no difference for Rupture correct? Since my understanding is that Rupture damage changes with Insight levels). I would assume this would apply during AR+SB also. I feel like I've gotten down the rotation but haven't been maximizing my DPS as I could and is probably due to BG management.


The post you quoted was a reply to an earlier question about gameplay during AR+SB, most of which you'll be in Deep Insight anyway.
Outside of AR+SB you'll ideally want to pool. Although I gotta admit that I personally am not doing so most of the time since it involves alot of additional micromanagement eg. aura tracking of not only the insight level itself, but also trinketprocs since the dps increase by finishing/KSing at a lower insight level with trinkets proced is bigger than pooling for the next insight but having your trinket buffs run out. In a perfect world I'd like to watch all of this, but there's a point where the theoretical dps gain is overshadowed by the amount you can actually fuck up besides maxing out your DPS, like not paying attention to certain boss mechanics. In the end, you should do as much micro-management as possible without losing focus - the worst rogue is a dead rogue afterall.

edit: Rupture Damage doesn't scale with insight levels btw, and insight levels have a whole lot less to say about general damage than trinketprocs do (well, the SoO trinkets do)

#109 fleshman

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 11:01 AM

Hi guys I've geared up a bit and am now 521, but why am I hitting so low I can just about break 100k dps I'm around 90k average, I dont actually understand? I'm seeing locks and hunters pull around 170k.

When I burst with Blade flurry I can reach some high numbers but it's only for that moment and then I drop down again and have to wait for cd's before i can pop again, at which point im being told my dps is crap this is really not fair, i've gemmed and everything.

I used 'askmrrobot' and i've used 'shadowcraft', which do not help i just think i should be breaking 150k single target already, can anyone help?

I'm using rotations as well so nothing wrong there.

Here's my shadowcraft:

Andraia @ The Sha'tar-EU - ShadowCraft

#110 Seliathan

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 11:24 AM

You've disabled every single raidbuff that is available. While you may not be able to get every single one of them, all of them in addition to Agi-Potions would put you on pretty much exactly 150k DPS. Go to the "settings" tab and change them depending on your raid composition.

#111 Kinajo

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:53 AM

Hi guys I've geared up a bit and am now 521, but why am I hitting so low I can just about break 100k dps I'm around 90k average, I dont actually understand? I'm seeing locks and hunters pull around 170k.


Biggest additional flaw is that you're using Marked for Death. You should never use that as combat. If you happen to do a heavy target-switching fight use Glyph of Redirect instead. If you get off one finisher (which you certainly should) it's cooldown is reset.

Without actual logs there's not much more that could be analyzed...

#112 nordveien

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 06:27 PM

To answer my previous question in this thread about T16 4pc, I just got it and spent some time on a dummy, and so far it doesn't seem like it resolves the issues with T15 4pc, or, rather, presents its own issues.

The playstyle is supposed to be slower, though it doesn't feel like it, because you still cap a lot. You just can't spam the abilities as fast as you could with T15. This leads to CP mismanagement (at least until the muscle memory adapts to T16). With T15, you could queue your finishers and even though they did not hit at the same time you pressed the buttons, they would hit eventually. With T16, you might think you queued something, while in reality you were on GCD and your Eviscerate or SS didn't apply.

On target dummy with my own debuffs only, T16 seemed to be doing about 5-7% dps more than T15 (while the overall ilvl went up by 4). In raid environment I suppose it would be worse, because of extra haste that would make you cap even more, as well as likely less optimal CP management. Of course, KS will be hitting harder, but then again you're likely to use KS less often in a real fight than on a dummy.

In Shadowcraft it showed virtually no dps difference when I went from T15 4pc (+T16 chest as off-piece) to T16 5pc (with full raid buffs). And it showed about 3% dps increase with buffs that I had on a dummy. That supports my assumption that going from T15 4pc (H) to T16 4pc (N) will likely not be a dps increase in raid setting.

#113 Alash

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:29 AM

Activate blade flurry for 2 or more targets and keep on doing your single-target rotation, but don't use rupture now as blade flurry won't copy it.

When there are a lot of targets(exact number not determined) use fan of knives for CP generation and crimson tempest as your finisher instead. You could also weave in slice and dice to fetch energy restore procs via combat potency.

I've run some numbers and turns out it might not be "a lot of targets" after all. If my calculations are correct, Crimson Tempest precedes Eviscerate as a finisher already with 2 adds:

Breakdown: https://dl.dropboxus...msontempest.jpg
Spreadsheet: https://dl.dropboxus...sontempest.xlsx

PS: This is a simplistic calculation that omits several factors such as chance of CT hitting a target already affected by DP and thus proccing the much less potent DP Instant. But to account for such things is out of the scope of this spreadsheet - for that we need someone capable of running the sims.

#114 phup

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:41 PM

I've run some numbers and turns out it might not be "a lot of targets" after all. If my calculations are correct, Crimson Tempest precedes Eviscerate as a finisher already with 2 adds:


I tried to test this in SimC, but it seems to have bugs where CT is concerned. If i'm looking at the debug log right, CT doesn't trigger poisons or restless blades in the current code. I'm not super familiar with the programming, but I tried to fix it and rebuild it. But I don't know if I did it right, because with my fix, using CT whenever it is about to run out is solidly ahead of eviscerate at just 2 total targets.

I submitted a bug to simC to have someone smarter than me look at the code and make sure CT is working correctly.

#115 Pathal

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:00 PM

It looks pretty reasonable. It doesn't factor in armor, but I would assume that would sway things in favor of CT (larger % of poison damage). It also ignores Main Gauche. If I understand the spreadsheet, it also appears to assume the full DoT damage is dealt, and that's a little questionable.

The modeling should hold up for the most part if you only cast CT once every ~12s (at least, no overlapping). But it gets quite a bit more complex once you start using CT more often than that. Things like the IP proc hitting side targets shouldn't be accounted for in the above scenario that it's cast every >12s.

I'll link to this discussion in the front post, but I'm considering it unsolved for the moment. Safe to assume it's less than "a lot of targets", for sure, but I'm not going to list specific values right now.

#116 Rontu

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:06 PM

couple of things about CT vs Evis

the aoe targets for CT do not get affected by

Sunder Armor
Physical Vulnerability
Revealing Strikes (Already including in your calculation)

#117 Pathal

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:10 AM

So, to update the CT vs Eviscerate discussion, I tweaked the calculations a bit.

https://docs.google....drive_web#gid=0

I'm getting something a little different than you, but still reasonably low. I don't think the breakpoint to start casting CT is until BF is maxed out on targets. And that's just the breakpoint in damage assuming it lasts the full DoT before a refresh. Even if I add support for things like "refresh in the last <3s", the breakpoint doesn't move at all since you're relying on a low chance for DP refreshes.

There probably isn't any reason to start casting CT until you're close to 10 targets or more. This isn't quite an exact answer still, but it's closer to what we need.

#118 Rontu

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:50 PM

tested this whole CT thing on heroic thok last night.

each pull i did only one CT on the bats that come up, i believe there are about 7 - 8 bats + the boss. one cast of CT on each pull did 720k - 750k (all deep insight).

#119 Pathal

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:39 PM

You need to use facts to support a point if you want to add something to the discussion.

#120 Rontu

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:14 PM

Here's the log from one of them

Crimson Tempest

I casted it once and it hit a total of 7 targets for 54,627 damage. The bleed damage lasted the full duration for 530,246 damage for a total of 584,873 from a single cast (does not include any poison procs)




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