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#1 Therya


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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:27 PM

Post: [MoP] Beastmastery 5.2
User: Ulto
Infraction: 2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.
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Message to User:

When you want to quote any other poster please refrain from using his whole post as it adds unnecessary volume to the thread. 2 or 3 lines are enough for anyone to understand who you are quoting and which post.

Original Post:

I used these settings because a lot peoples say that when you run a SimC with low lag and player skill set at ELITE, haste tend to be better then anything because of the reaction time/perfect rotation of the SimC which is really hard to achieve in a raid situation.
By setting (lag = medium) / (player skill = good), my objective was to obtain some more reasonable statistic.

But since you asked:
after reforging into haste > crit > mastery with lag=medium, player skill=good, that was the result :
Agi (5.23), Wdps (4.37), Exp(3.88), Hit (3.42), Haste (2.14), AP (1.92), Crit (1.87), Mast (1.75)

with exactly the same build/reforge, setting the lag at low and player skill at elite it gave me this:
Agi (5.26), Wdps (4.30), Exp(3.99), Hit (3.51), Haste (2.22), AP (1.94), Crit (1.86), Mast (1.76)

see how it only affect haste? so yeah, better you get with the priority list/rotation the better you gonna benefit from haste

In respond to Nooska:
to really understand how Rune of Re-Origination work we would have to make a couple more test such as:
1. Reforging into haste to see what happens when crit/mastery got converted into haste and how it affect the synergy of the stat weight
2. Reforging into crit to see what happens when haste/mastery got converted into Crit and how it affect the synergy of the stat weight
3. Reforging into mastery to see what happens when crit/haste got converted into mastery and how it affect the synergy of the stat weight
Unfortunately i dont have a rune of origination to check this out.

Let me explain what the stats really do:
Mastery tend to be really good on a short period of time because of the way it impact on our burst, let me explain :
this is how i open a fight : (pre-potion) SS, KC, GT, DB, CS, [Stampede, BW, KC, AMoC, RF, AS (until KC up), KC, Readiness, KC] ...
both of your trinket have to be UP for [...] portion.
so if you stack mastery , you would end increasing about everything in that portion of time by 10%-15%.
other then that mastery only affect stampede, AMoC, KC, DB, pet damage which isnt really good
When i was using the ( Agi>hit==exp (to cap)>>mastery>~crit>>haste ) stat priority i was ending with HUGE burst then my dps was going down for the rest of the fight

Crit is certainly a good stat but some people misunderstand how it affect dps
so i have (with buff / flask / food buff) 28.66% of crits and with my scope, trinkets it can go up to 50%
so yeah crits is really a good stat but the question is how 1% more crit affect dps, lets say you have ~ 33% crits, so crits is really a huge part of your dps, then you had 1% more so you are at 34%, so you had 1/3 chance to crits and after that you got 1/3+1% chance of crits.
I see crits as : you certainly need a huge amount of crits because crits is good but i think there is a certain ''diminishing return'' on it : adding 5% of crits will certainly show a difference but adding 1 % not so much.
The SimC can surely show a difference between 33% and 34% but in my mind 33% = 1/3 ~ 34%.

Haste, well haste increase everything you do:
- increase focus regen
- Reduce the Global CD corrected ty nooska
- Reduce the casting time of cobra shot
- by reducing GCD and cobra shot casting time you will have much more easy time with the priority list
- increase the white dmg of you(which is ~12% of your total dmg done), your main pet (which is ~15% of your total dmg done), your dire beast pet (which is ~6% of your total dmg done) and each of your stampede pet(which is ~ 0.07% for each pet so 2.8% of your total dmg done)
- GftT proc more often -> pet do more basic attack -> more invigoration(+20 focus to you) / frenzy -> more Up time of Focus fire (which give 30 focus to you/pet and 30% haste to you) -> GftT proc more often ... cycle.
-1 of the big problem about hunter dps right now is that 33% of the fight time we are casting cobra shot which only result in ~6% of the total dmg done.
- by doing so you will end up by casting less cobra shot ( which have ~20k dps per execute ) and casting more arcane shot (which have ~50k dps per execute)
- also haste increase the proc rate of all the rppm trinket

id recommend going either crit=haste >mastery or haste > crit > mastery

I agree with you but my reasoning is quite different.

We are looking at 4 stats : attack power, crit, hast and mastery.
Their effect is multiplicative and this is something that you must not forget.
It means that when your increase some stat it becomes a little less interesting.
And of course that the value of each stats depends of your gear.

Note that you need 600 crit rating to get 1% crit, 600 mastery for 1% mastery (altough in BM it will be written 2% mastery on your character sheet as it gives you 2% more damage from pets) and only 400 to get 1% haste.
Attack power is so powerful compared to these stats, and has been this way since wowtlk, so there is no point to compare attack power or agility to these stats, except for socket bonus considerations.

Let's take a look at the value of these stats :
- Critical rating :
It may be the easiest stat to understand.
1% critical chance will give you 1% damage when you have 0% critical chance, as critical damage deal 2 times damage (2.06 to be accurate). As other stats, its value will decrease the more critical chance you get, and the last % is worth half as much as the first.
Another effect of critical chance is the "Go for the Throat" proc which will give your pet 20 focus every time you do a critical strike on a Auto attack. This increases your pet DPS but also the uptime of Frenzy and thus further improve your dps.
This buff accounts for 28% of my pet focus regeneration, according to simulationcraft, which is quite decent.
Critical rating is the easiest stat because except for the fact that the more you get the less interesting it becomes, which is the same for other stats, its value does not change very much as it affects all your abilities.

- Mastery rating :
Mastery rating increases your pets damage by 2% per 600 mastery.
The more mastery you get the less it becomes efficient.
The value of mastery depends of how much dps comes from your pet.
In my current gear and according to simulationcraft, something like 50% of my damage comes from my pet after mastery is applied.
It means that mastery accounts for 40% * 50% / 140% = 14% of my dps.
Without mastery My pet damage would be only 50% - 14% = 36% of my dps.
When you gear up, your weapon damage increases more than your attack power, and with the attack power coefficients from abilities, abilities that do x% weapon damage becomes stronger. It means that with T15H your pet damage will be lower than it was in T14.
I would say your pets would do 50% of your damage at the beginning of T14 and will likely do less than 33% at the end of T15H.
Thus mastery becomes less interesting.

- Haste rating :
By far the most complicated of all three stats, haste has a lot of effects.
I will consider everything smooth and not take haste caps into account, as for a a hunter there is no significative cap.
The first effect of haste is to increase attack speed, thus increasing damage of some abilities.
Another effect is to increase focus regeneration.
A third effect is to increase RPPM based procs.
Basically 1% haste it far from being 1% damage.

A lot of abilities do not scale with haste. Abilities with cooldowns or instant abilities do not get better with more haste.
Abilities scaling with haste to a 1:1 ratio (with 0% haste) :
- Auto shot
- Pet auto attack
- Cobra Shot
- Dire Beast (ignoring the caps)
These abilities should account for something like 35% of your dps.

Abilities getting no benefits from haste :
Every damaging ability with cooldown (SerS, KC, GT, KS, MoC)
They should be worth 30% of your DPS.

Haste also increase focus regeneration :
- Your base regeneration
- Your pet base regeneration
- Your regeneration from the +20 focus from your pet attacks (attack speed is increased by haste)
- Your pet regeneration through Go for the Throat.
Hence it increases all kind of passive focus regeneration.
It also allows you to cast faster CoS and thus get also more focus.
But if you have for example 20% more focus, it won't allow you to do 20% more DPS, not even close.
All you will be able to do will be to replace CoS with AS.
Replacing it will cost you 20 focus and the focus you would have gained from CoS (14 / cast time).
It will give you additional damage equal to the difference between CoS and AS.
This means 100% - 70% / cast time attack damage.
Hence, haste there is a quadratic negative effect for scaling haste, compared to other stat.
The more haste you get, the less it will impact your focus regeneration in percentage and the more haste you get the less you will benefit from additional regeneration, as each additional AS will cost you more focus and give you less increase damage the more haste you have.
The effective value is very hard to compute directly, without performing simulation. Moreover, it is more complicated then that as there are caps and the DPS increase is not smooth at all. For example, if you have 1.5 second cast time on CoS you can have a reliable DPS cycle with KC every 6 second, and with some additional haste the best thing to do will be to delay your KC by a little and this haste would have been wasted.

Something quite new is the RPPM system. For some strange reason the proc rate with RPPM is affected by haste.
While it would be completely logic for procs that deal X damage like some weapon enchant, because it would mean they just stack linearly with haste. For example this is the case with T15 2P bonus. However, it does not make sense to me that procs like : Give Y agility for Z second be affected.
For classic trinket, it you get a proc, haste will give you more attack during the Z second window, and thus the proc will scale with haste. However with RPPM you will have more proc and proc will affect more attacks, so basically it will have a quadratic effect on your dps.
To know the value of haste regarding RPPM trinkets, you would have to know which percentage of your DPS comes from the trinket proc. Then you can calculate the effect directly. For example 20% increase in attack speed will increase the effect of the trinket by 1.2^2 - 1 = 44%.
I think this will have an impact on how stats are ranked. However, damage coming from trinket procs should not account for more than 10-15% of our DPS. Thus the impact will be limited. I don't think reforging everything for haste will yeld better result.

Also you have to remember that our biggest cooldowns (Rapid Fire, Blood Lust) and the Cooldown of our pet are Attack Speed / Haste procs, which makes this stat less attractive as it won't scale well with these cooldown, and this is even more important as a lot of DPS will be done during these burst phases.

Thus I think crit / mastery was very good in T14, but now mastery is weaker (because our DPS increase faster than this of ou pets ) and haste is stronger, because the part of our DPS which is affected by haste has increased and also because of RPPM trinkets, as thoses get additional benefits from haste.

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