Jump to content


Photo

[MoP] Beastmastery 5.4


  • Please log in to reply
117 replies to this topic

#1 Effinhunter

Effinhunter

    Piston Honda

  • • Guide Author
  • 121 posts

Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:24 AM

This post has been promoted to an article

#2 Beace

Beace

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 86 posts

Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:50 PM

Nice guide!

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't engineering considered the #1 profession due to being able to stack Synapse Springs with other class cooldowns? Specially for BM where it can be macrod with BW.

I've also been wondering how SrS should be used in cleave/council fights. Is it worth trying to keep SrS up on multiple targets?

#3 Effinhunter

Effinhunter

    Piston Honda

  • • Guide Author
  • 121 posts

Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:44 PM

Thanks, Beace!

I would definitely have to agree with you about the engineering boost from Synapse Springs being perfectly aligned for BM. I will probably move Alchemy to the tied position for 2nd and put Engineering up top. Any other suggestions on professions?

Has anyone looked into the math on Serpent Sting in a cleave fight with the current 5.3 mechanics? The last I saw math on this, Arcane Shots were even better uses of the GCD than SS in an AoE fight. With Multi-shot needing to be done every 4s to keep Beast Cleave up as much as possible, I would guess keeping multiple SrS up is even less productive now.

Edit: Professions listing is now updated with the suggestion. Thanks!

#4 Kaitain

Kaitain

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:25 AM

As I understand it there is a level of sustained DoT damage where Spirit Bond is healing more than AotIH is mitigating. Is it worth referring to that concept and finding out what the exact numbers are (or rather the formula, as the player's HP comes into it)?

#5 Nooska

Nooska

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 540 posts

Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:24 AM

Looks good - only thing I would suggest at this moment is to prune the TOC a bit. My primary suggestion for pruning in the ToC would be the 5.5.1.x and the 5.5.2.x listings, so it would be "Gearing for normal ToT [br] Normal ToT [br] Heroic ToT BiS"
Would make it easier to get an overview of the ToC.

Apart from that, it looks very promising - and I want to wish you good luck with the work.

#6 Effinhunter

Effinhunter

    Piston Honda

  • • Guide Author
  • 121 posts

Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:26 PM

@Nooska

Thanks for the suggestion and best wishes! I've flattened the ToC and rethought some of the categories. Here's a listing of some of the changes:

1) Removed the BiS Gear category from Gear Optimization to flatten that tree section
2) Kept Simulators within the Gear Optimization set but moved Mods, Macros, Raid Strats, etc. to the top level. This structure was copied from one of the DK guides, and in hindsight, it didn't really make all that much sense.

@Kaitain

I would be very interested in that formula, but I believe Spirit Bond would have to be massively buffed to meet the damage requirements of most ToT bosses for it to be worth respeccing over Aspect of the Iron Hawk. It's not really about meeting gradual damage over time requirements (which any raid healer should be able to deal with anyway). It's about minimizing the spiky damage that healers have the most problems with (e.g., the Iron Hawk represents a constant, passive personal damage mitigation cooldown on Jin'rokh's storm, Megaera's Rampage, Tortos's Stomp, Horridon's Dire Call, and all other types of mechanics in ToT that tend to do massive amounts of damage).

Also, if there are specific raid bosses that have no such spiky raid death mechanics, that you would recommend Spirit Bond on, please discuss them and I will either add them to the Talent section for that ability or maybe into Raid Strats as a mention for the particular boss, once I start on that section.

#7 Gorek

Gorek

    Piston Honda

  • Guild Members
  • 166 posts

Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:53 PM

I can't really imagine a situation in a raid where Spirit Bond would be better than Aspect of the Iron Hawk. Spirit Bond does nothing when you're at full health, so you would have to taking damage consistently enough that you spend a large portion of the fight not topped off. As has been mentioned, large bursts of damage are what usually kills people, which AotIH is much better for. Taking constant low damage where you are never in danger of taking a large burst is where Spirit Bond would be better than AotIH, problem is that type of damage is not typically something healers have issues healing efficiently.

({Max Health}*.02)/.15 every two seconds is the break even point for damage healed by Spirit Bond and damage mitigated by AotIH.

At 537 ilevel I think I have somewhere around ~565K health raid buffed, so Spirit Bond would heal for ~11,300 every two seconds. 11,300 / .15 = 75,333.3 (repeating of course) damage every two seconds. So the threshold is decently high, but the rest of the circumstances like never being topped off, never in danger of taking a spike, unable to clump up and AoE heal are pretty unlikely.

Off the top of my head, the only thing I can think of would be something like Loatheb or an extended situation with the debuff on Yor'sahj where healers are limited in the number of heals they can throw around.



Has anyone tested/know the actual range of Beast Cleave?

#8 Effinhunter

Effinhunter

    Piston Honda

  • • Guide Author
  • 121 posts

Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:29 PM

Has anyone tested/know the actual range of Beast Cleave?


Beast Cleave is listed as an 8 yard range around the pet. The listed range seems correct. It certainly wasn't 15 yards, and I don't think it's 10 either, but I haven't done any specific testing to see if it's actually 8 or 10.

Edit: I'll update the guide to list the 8 yard range.

Edit (2): Removed the word "target" from the first sentence of this post as this was causing some confusion.

#9 Beace

Beace

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 86 posts

Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:35 PM

Are you sure it's based on target and not pet position? I've seen experienced high level BM hunters talk about positioning the pet very carefully for cleaving (mostly for Durumu walls I guess), which lead me to believe it was based on pet and not the target. Maybe I misunderstood things.

#10 Arktem

Arktem

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:20 PM

I can say with 100% certainty that it is based off of pet position and has nothing to do with your target. The AoE is actually circular with your pet being the focal point.

#11 Effinhunter

Effinhunter

    Piston Honda

  • • Guide Author
  • 121 posts

Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:05 PM

Are you sure it's based on target and not pet position? I've seen experienced high level BM hunters talk about positioning the pet very carefully for cleaving (mostly for Durumu walls I guess), which lead me to believe it was based on pet and not the target. Maybe I misunderstood things.


This is the way I describe it in the guide in the multi-shot section. It's around the pet. The reply in this thread was just not as well-worded.

#12 Effinhunter

Effinhunter

    Piston Honda

  • • Guide Author
  • 121 posts

Posted 02 June 2013 - 06:27 PM

Raid strategies have been added for Normal and Heroic ToT. Discussion is appreciated, especially on Heroic bosses, to ensure the completeness and accuracy of the guide. I've noted the sources of the information in the introductory paragraph here: http://elitistjerks....Raid_Strategies. If other sources are recommended, please let me know. Additionally, if anything is incorrect, especially on bosses I haven't had the opportunity to fight yet, please discuss them or pm me, and I'll update the section.

#13 Chernobyl56

Chernobyl56

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 02 June 2013 - 09:02 PM

For the individual fight strategies for Horridon and Tortos, you may wish to make note of Misdirection. I often have observed hunters in pugs forgetting they have this ability, to the point that some don't even have it placed on their actionbar. If your tank is having trouble picking up the trolls on Horridon or the bats on Tortos, then Misdirecting could prove useful.

I would assume this to be common knowledge for those browsing this guide, but it wouldn't hurt to make a note of it.

#14 Effinhunter

Effinhunter

    Piston Honda

  • • Guide Author
  • 121 posts

Posted 02 June 2013 - 10:53 PM

Good idea. I've added the following:

N Horridon / H Horridon

Misdirect should be used on cooldown on all doors to help the add tank get aggro. Make a macro for targeting each tank and use it as appropriate to the tank who is tanking the adds. Something like:

/target <insert the name of your tank>
/cast Misdirection


N Tortos / H Tortos

Misdirect should be used after the Vampire Bats spawn. Barrage should be spec'd into for this fight, and Barrage should be used directly after Misdirect and with the Vampire Bats targeted to ensure that the group is hit. Misdirect with Multi-shot is not as useful as Misdirect with Barrage and can actually be detrimental due to Beast Cleave (your pet may get a lucky string of crits and grab aggro).Make a macro for targeting each tank and use it as appropriate to the tank who is tanking the adds. Something like:

/target <insert the name of your tank>
/cast Misdirection



I also added this simple macro to the Macros section.

Edit: Added macro for pairing Beastial Wrath with Synapse Strings to Macros section.

#15 Effinhunter

Effinhunter

    Piston Honda

  • • Guide Author
  • 121 posts

Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:06 PM

I received some requests via PM which have resulted in changes to the guide. On H Council, you can game the Twisted Fate mechanic by gaining distance from the raid and slow your soul add to ensure minimal damage that healers must take care of. On both N and H Council (and many other fights that target players with abilities), you can use Camouflage to avoid damage completely. There is probably a whole list of abilities in which this applies, and I would guess that almost anything you can reflect completely through Deterrence, you can also avoid altogether with the 6 second Camouflage. Just as with Deterrence, AoE ground effects will still damage you.

I've added a macro (provided by mistake767) to the macros section for stopcasting and casting Camouflage. Changes are in the Changelog.

#16 Effinhunter

Effinhunter

    Piston Honda

  • • Guide Author
  • 121 posts

Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:19 AM

I've gotten many pms concerning macros, and I understand these are a popular way to customize the hunter experience. However, it's becoming very apparent that macros could also consume most of the guide if we really wanted to make the section comprehensive.

I've tried to come up with a compromise. The macros section is now split into three sections. First, creating macros. Then, how to customize macros, including links to lists of commands and abilities that are off the GCD. Last, some common macros that hunters may find useful. There are literally hundreds of macros that could be useful for some hunters, so if you have lists, similar to the one Drairon has provided, please submit them to me via PM and I'll add them to the macros section and the other resources section.

#17 aicemen

aicemen

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:28 PM

I'm having trouble understanding why Voice of the Quillen is placed over Durumu's Blazeful Gaze (in regards to normal progression). Since with the first we would probably go over the hit cap while with Durumu's we could reforge mastery to hit (t15 pieces most give it), and it also have the two best stats for BM atm.

#18 Effinhunter

Effinhunter

    Piston Honda

  • • Guide Author
  • 121 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 05:34 PM

I'm having trouble understanding why Voice of the Quillen is placed over Durumu's Blazeful Gaze (in regards to normal progression). Since with the first we would probably go over the hit cap while with Durumu's we could reforge mastery to hit (t15 pieces most give it), and it also have the two best stats for BM atm.


The Voice of the Quilen has been given a trade of 80 agility for 80 stamina, which augments its damage potential. In the BiS profiles, we are able to reforge the hit into acceptable ranges and take advantage of the extra 80 agility. If you are way over the hit cap, then the Durumu's Baleful Gaze may be a better weapon for you. It's certainly well itemized, but it's also within the stat budget for its ilvl and the Voice of the Quilen is not. 80 Agility is worth a lot of crit or haste, though, in terms of dps equivalence.

The Voice is also oddly overbudget. Primary stats should not be a 1:1 trade with something like stamina. For instance, look at the pure agility gem. It's a 160 agi gem. The pure stamina gem is 240 stamina. This is the ratio that should have held for exchanging the agility with the stamina on items. So, for the Voice of the Quilen, we should have been traded 80 agility for 120 stamina (which is still awesome), but instead we have a slightly overbudget item. It's not a huge deal, but it is puzzling.

After you get rid of the 522 ilvl valor trinket from the Shado-pan (the one with all the hit), you'll find that hit is generally easier to get rid of. The expertise from the Renataki's, on the other hand, can be somewhat problematic as you get closer to BiS.

Edit: P.S. The relationships outlined in the guide for weapons and trinkets were based on many simulations in both SimC and FD and not just intuitions

#19 Hefemus

Hefemus

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:18 PM

I thought orcs would be the better choice for BM do to the fact that they have the pet bonus?

#20 Tornn

Tornn

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:00 PM

Hi there,

I'm still curious as to why Talisman of Bloodlust is currently not recommended as one of the two BiS hunter trinkets. I'm currently 9/13 heroic experienced and possess a thunderforged normal version.

Originally in a great deal of discussion people have stated that in a normal to normal comparison of trinkets that Renataki parsed out to be a slightly higher gain in agility over Talisman's static (the exact numbers escape me, but Effin you are quite sharp so I'm sure you could come up with a comparison). They then estimated that you would have to average at least a 2 stack of the trinket and that a few hunters continued to complain that they barely ever got one stack.

Now, I have a feeling these hunters were using either an LFR version which might have had a reduced RPPM chance or were flat out wrong. I average 2-3 stacks and routinely get 5 stacks numerous times throughout a fight. Considering that a portion of Renataki's trinket will always be wasted because in BiS gear you will be over the expertise cap significantly, I wonder why a trinket with a solid amount of static agility and with a strong proc of our best secondary stat is valued so far below two agility proc trinkets. I can understand for SV considering Explosive shot for whatever inane reason doesn't proc Talisman and also agility procs are great for the snapshot nature of Black Arrow, but I was hoping that Effin you might be able to convince me with your wisdom as to why I should favor the other two trinkets if I have access to all at a heroic t-forged level.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users