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[MoP] Beastmastery 5.4


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#21 Effinhunter

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 12:30 AM

I thought orcs would be the better choice for BM do to the fact that they have the pet bonus?


We did have a brief period of time where an Orc profile was up (less than 8 hours). After that, a better profile was created with the Troll. These profiles are generally very close, but we haven't been able to find an Orc profile that beats the current Troll one. If you do find one, please post it. I love exploring new character profiles.

Hi there,

I'm still curious as to why Talisman of Bloodlust is currently not recommended as one of the two BiS hunter trinkets. I'm currently 9/13 heroic experienced and possess a thunderforged normal version.
...
Now, I have a feeling these hunters were using either an LFR version which might have had a reduced RPPM chance or were flat out wrong. I average 2-3 stacks and routinely get 5 stacks numerous times throughout a fight. Considering that a portion of Renataki's trinket will always be wasted because in BiS gear you will be over the expertise cap significantly, I wonder why a trinket with a solid amount of static agility and with a strong proc of our best secondary stat is valued so far below two agility proc trinkets. I can understand for SV considering Explosive shot for whatever inane reason doesn't proc Talisman and also agility procs are great for the snapshot nature of Black Arrow, but I was hoping that Effin you might be able to convince me with your wisdom as to why I should favor the other two trinkets if I have access to all at a heroic t-forged level.


The current BiS profile has 137 expertise over the cap, but I have not been able to find a profile that favors Talisman. That being said, the truth of the matter is that the trinket proc rates are wildly erratic in game, and the simulators are doing the best they can to find a middle ground. It's not a perfect predictor of in-game performance everytime, though. I've seen people speccing mastery > crit > haste get 50% uptime on Renataki's on fights like Jin'rokh--obviously a very lucky proc rate--and that happens. Specializing in haste > crit > mastery is a good strategy toward maximizing the number of high proc rate fights you experience in a raid night, and the ultimate goal of RPPM is to try to maximize the best procs, which is why Renataki is performing so well right now (that's a lot of agility).

I could offer anecdotal evidence concerning Talisman of Bloodlust, Rune of Reorigination, Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault, Bad Juju and Renataki's (I've experimented with all five at 522-528 since the release of 5.2), but it's just that--anecdotal. The simulators are ranking Talisman lower than the others due to the way it performs in Simc and FD, but that doesn't have to be the final say. Blizzard's focus on the RPPM mechanism in this content is both a blessing (e.g., the uptime seen on some of these trinkets like Renataki has been extraordinary in many cases) and a curse (e.g. there is no guaranteed proc rate or uptime, regardless of your haste value and this is making accurate theorycrafting very difficult).


All that being said, I'm fallible and so are the simulators. This is a community guide, and the sections being discussed here are meant to be guides not gospel. Discussions are not only welcome but also encouraged. If you guys have theorycrafting or simulations you have done that can help us all explore the hunter class more and make better gearing, shot selection, or play-related decisions, such discussions are greatly appreciated.

#22 aicemen

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 08:31 PM

The Voice of the Quilen has been given a trade of 80 agility for 80 stamina, which augments its damage potential. In the BiS profiles, we are able to reforge the hit into acceptable ranges and take advantage of the extra 80 agility. If you are way over the hit cap, then the Durumu's Baleful Gaze may be a better weapon for you. It's certainly well itemized, but it's also within the stat budget for its ilvl and the Voice of the Quilen is not. 80 Agility is worth a lot of crit or haste, though, in terms of dps equivalence.

The Voice is also oddly overbudget. Primary stats should not be a 1:1 trade with something like stamina. For instance, look at the pure agility gem. It's a 160 agi gem. The pure stamina gem is 240 stamina. This is the ratio that should have held for exchanging the agility with the stamina on items. So, for the Voice of the Quilen, we should have been traded 80 agility for 120 stamina (which is still awesome), but instead we have a slightly overbudget item. It's not a huge deal, but it is puzzling.

After you get rid of the 522 ilvl valor trinket from the Shado-pan (the one with all the hit), you'll find that hit is generally easier to get rid of. The expertise from the Renataki's, on the other hand, can be somewhat problematic as you get closer to BiS.

Edit: P.S. The relationships outlined in the guide for weapons and trinkets were based on many simulations in both SimC and FD and not just intuitions


Thanks again Effin! I'm still new to playing with profiles and slowly learning the basics of it. Hopefully later I will be able to contribute more than solely asking questions, lol.

Here goes another one: I'm intrigued to know how some hunters can burst out 400-500k dps on the opener. I recently changed to Troll and I'm still getting used to the haste racial.

My opening is more or less like this (using Blink Strikes atm):

(NO BL)
Pre-pot
Serpent Sting
RF + BW + KW
Dire Beast
Glaive Toss
(now BW should be ending in 3 seconds)
Readiness (I'd still be with 120 focus because all the haste)
KC
Serpent Sting (I try to reapply it when all trinkets are up and Renataki's close to 10 stacks)
Dire Beast
Glaive Toss
BW + KC (now that KC is off cd)

Then I just follow the standard priority and and try no to drop SS.
I'm saving the secon RF for after the second BW (I don't know if I should do this or not) and Berserk after the second RF.

With this I can pull off 350~400k at most, but what I see in WorldofLogs is that they can pull it off right after the start of the fight. I know theres some gear gap but some of them are not that high above me.

I would like to hear some opinions and what other players are using if possible. Thanks!

#23 Drairon

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 01:19 PM

Here goes another one: I'm intrigued to know how some hunters can burst out 400-500k dps on the opener. I recently changed to Troll and I'm still getting used to the haste racial.


I would like to hear some opinions and what other players are using if possible. Thanks!



Here is a link to the opener I use. Don't know if its the best, but its what works for me. If Hero/Bloodlust is used at the start, I'm able to easily do over 500K.

#24 pichuca

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:09 PM

My opening is more or less like this (using Blink Strikes atm):

(NO BL)
Pre-pot
Serpent Sting
RF + BW + KW
Dire Beast
Glaive Toss
(now BW should be ending in 3 seconds)
Readiness (I'd still be with 120 focus because all the haste)
KC
Serpent Sting (I try to reapply it when all trinkets are up and Renataki's close to 10 stacks)
Dire Beast
Glaive Toss
BW + KC (now that KC is off cd)

Then I just follow the standard priority and and try no to drop SS.
I'm saving the secon RF for after the second BW (I don't know if I should do this or not) and Berserk after the second RF.


There are different approaches for it, but there are some things that everyone should do regardless:
First rule, DON'T macro KC to BW. As someone has proven on these forums, that KC will not benefit from BW due to lag issues.
Second, cast a Cobra Shot early in the opening to fish for a 2 piece procc. It is almost a guaranted procc. Don't bother with focus capping, the benefit outweights the focus loss by far
Third, cast Stampede after rapid fire/Bloodlust, not before. It looks like their focus regen doesn't update dynamically.

There is some other old rules for a good opening: You should get 5 KCs and 3 GTs during the 2 BWs.

#25 Vitaro

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 08:28 PM

First rule, DON'T macro KC to BW. As someone has proven on these forums, that KC will not benefit from BW due to lag issues.


Indeed. Specifically: When macroing KC together with BW, that KC will not benefit from BW's +20% damage modifier. It will oddly enough benefit from the -50% focus cost reduction.

#26 Effinhunter

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:35 PM

To add to the discussion on openers, many hunters have shared their opening rotations on MMO-Champion. Here are a couple threads with dozens of replies with advice for further reading.

Asking About BM Opening Burst
BM best opener

Also, as an update, we have a blue post indicating incoming Stampede and Blink Strikes nerfs hotfixed in before 5.4. From the context and from watching the Blizzard forums since 5.3, these fixes are meant to address PvP concerns where Blink Strikes was making it impossible for players to get away from pets (without killing them, apparently). With the nature of these types of rushed hotfixes, we may see some collateral damage to our PvE abilities. I won't quote the rumor mill too much here, but I will try to update the guide with more information once I found out the details of these hotfixes. I also just wanted to warn everyone that the nerfs we were worried about to Blink Strikes and BM damage may be happening sooner than 5.4.

Finally, I had an unusual bug happen to me on Council this week, and I wanted to ask if anyone else has experienced this as BM with Blink Strikes. My pet stood beside me, even though it was on Assist, and attacked with a Blink Strike every 3s before returning right back to my side, instead of positioning itself behind one of the Council (the one I'm targeting), resulting in greatly reduced auto attacks by the pet. This is the first time I've seen this bug. I've read about pets not auto-attacking in some cases since 5.3, but I haven't been able to find specific analyses of what might be causing this and how to fix it (and this was the first time I'd ever seen it). Has anyone found the root cause of these pet pathing/autoattacking bugs with the new Blink Strikes?

#27 Dakayras

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:38 AM

Hi,

I apologize for my english speaking, my vocabulary is not very big, but I understands well enough what I read.


Third, cast Stampede after rapid fire/Bloodlust, not before. It looks like their focus regen doesn't update dynamically.


I think that Rapid Fire and Focus Fire give me ranged haste, so it couldn't modify my pets focus regen whereas BL / Berserk ( troll) is a gain of ranged and cac haste.

#28 Namarus

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:23 PM

Hi,

I apologize for my english speaking, my vocabulary is not very big, but I understands well enough what I read.




I think that Rapid Fire and Focus Fire give me ranged haste, so it couldn't modify my pets focus regen whereas BL / Berserk ( troll) is a gain of ranged and cac haste.


Pet Focus regen is based off your character's focus regen. Since Rapid Fire and Focus Fire affect character focus regen they affect pet focus regen.

#29 Iridar

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:14 PM

Here is a link to the opener I use. Don't know if its the best, but its what works for me. If Hero/Bloodlust is used at the start, I'm able to easily do over 500K.


Hey, I've got a question about your opener. You initially apply Serpent Sting, then, 15 GCDs later you cast it again, I assume the goal of this is to have 100% Serpent Sting uptime during your opener.
However, in between these two casts of Serpen Sting you do a Cobra Shot to fish for the T15 Thunderhawk proc, so you actually prolong the first Serpent Sting, and when you apply Serpent Sting second time, the first one still has a few seconds of duration.

Is that intended? Do you reapply Serpent Sting a bit early to ensure it's cast during trinket procs, like Renetaki and Juju?

#30 NoGoal

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:53 AM

Pet Focus regen is based off your character's focus regen.

That's not true.

Pet have a base of 5 focus per second (vs 4 FPS for the hunter) increased by their (ranged) haste (not attack speed like Frenzy stacks, Rabid or the 10% raid buff).

Pets benefit from your (ranged) haste buffs though which modify their Focus Regen.

#31 Namarus

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:38 PM

That's not true.

Pet have a base of 5 focus per second (vs 4 FPS for the hunter) increased by their (ranged) haste (not attack speed like Frenzy stacks, Rabid or the 10% raid buff).

Pets benefit from your (ranged) haste buffs though which modify their Focus Regen.


Pets focus regeneration is 125% of the hunter focus regen. Hence why it's based on hunter focus regeneration.

#32 Effinhunter

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:05 AM

The 5.3 hotfixes that I mentioned earlier in the thread have been applied to the servers and should be in effect after your realm restarts. These include:

General
Arcane Shot now deals 10% more damage. [Requires a realm restart]
Cobra Shot now deals 10% more damage. [Requires a realm restart]
Hunter Pets summoned by Stampede now only use auto-attacks against their target. [Requires a realm restart]
Steady Shot now deals 10% more damage. [Requires a realm restart]

Talents
Blink Strikes now has a 10-yard minimum range, and the teleportation effect cannot happen more than once every 20 seconds. [Requires a realm restart]


5.3 Hotfixes: June 10 - MMO-Champion BlueTracker


From initial modeling on FD, this appears to be a slight buff ranging from 1k dps to 1.5k dps for BM. Similar gains are likely in SV and MM.

Edit: Updated main post to reflect hotfix changes.

#33 Darthruneis

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:40 AM

Something I've been wondering and incapable of simming in FD or SimC (probably/possibly due to ineptitude with them) is whether or not during short AoE sessions in a fight holding off on casting Focus Fire to allow for more pet attacks with beast cleave up outweighs potentially losing a multi-shot or two (depending on length of aoe) due to loss of focus regen through losing some Focus Fire uptime.

I'm figuring that at my gear level, with a 536 weapon, it probably isn't worth it, but it is a curious idea given varying gear levels and ilvls of weapons.

Also, to touch on the opener discussion people were having recently, in regards to 2pt15, a proc can be all but assured right on the pull by precasting a Cobra Shot right after popping your prepot. I'd wager that this outweighs a KC right on the pull but given [at least my] tanks' inability to pull precisely on the pull timer I may be losing out on fractions of a second on the pull, so perhaps it isn't worth doing.

Haven't seen anyone mention doing so so I figured I would.

#34 Namarus

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:45 PM

Again, this is wrong. Please read http://elitistjerks....king_questions/ again.


You might want to check your sources.

Ghostcrawler replied, “Yeah, allow me to clarify. The pet inherits 125% of the hunter’s focus regen, ....


Beta Classes Part XXII: Possible Disengage Fix; Pet Focus Regen Clarified | WoW Hunters Hall

So where was I wrong? So as I was saying, anything that affects hunter focus regen, affects pet focus regen.

#35 NoGoal

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:42 AM

So where was I wrong? So as I was saying, anything that affects hunter focus regen, affects pet focus regen.

It's your logic (or the way you phrase it at least).

´Ranged´ Haste (add Focus Fire - which gives both focus to your pet and ranged haste -, Go for the Throat and Fervor to be complete) affects pet focus regeneration and nothing else.

Invigoration and raid mechanics like Sha Globes don't, even though they state they affect regeneration.

#36 Lokrick

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 05:51 AM

Pets focus regeneration is 125% of the hunter focus regen. Hence why it's based on hunter focus regeneration.


This is correct. The FAQ (that NoGoal pointed to) is also correct. Zeherah and I, among others, spent a lot of time figuring out how focus worked. Originally, simc was implemented following the characterization in the FAQ (i.e., the pet starts with 5 and gets the multipliers from the hunter). That was very complicated, since all the distinctions between ranged and melee, haste and speed, pet inheritance, etc. mattered to the result, and were not otherwise necessary in simc. It actually turns out that they really all add up to the same as the computed regen for the hunter * 5/4 (125%).

That's only for regen. Other effects like Fervor generate focus, but do not change "focus regen" (e.g., they are like a separate HoT for focus, and tick on a different clock with independent events in the event log).

#37 Effinhunter

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 05:07 AM

Added section on Snapshotting versus Dynamic Updates:

http://elitistjerks....Dynamic_Updates

#38 Mythx

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:59 AM

Was curious about the BS>AMoC. After taking the guides advice i reforged for the rppm trinket style which according to FD was a 2.6k increase dps-wise. I was using (1.6)crit > (1.55)mastery > (1.4)haste. But, back to the question: using FD, for me AMoC parsed at 159751.31 and when I parsed again using BS the results showed 158695.64.. Did I do something wrong or is something else taken into consideration for the swap from AMoC to BS to be viable (other than single/multi target)?

#39 Nooska

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:25 AM

Well, BS has undergone a slight nerf in hotfixing as the first thing. Secondly the reason BS "is better" is that it is always on - looking at your 2 numbers, that also means, that 1 missed tick of AMoC, or 1 lost amoc over the course of a fight (fightlengths being variable) and BS will overtake. You have the full benefit of BS 0-time, and you have the same benefit from it regardless of fight length. AmoC you have a bigger benefit of during its run, peaking at the end of the dot, then cratering untill you can cast it again, witha peak at the end of the dot.

#40 Effinhunter

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:08 AM

@Mythx

Are you saying that using (1.6)crit > (1.55)mastery > (1.4) haste resulted in AMoC being higher dps? If so, that may be true. For haste > crit > mastery and crit > haste > mastery, BS should simulate higher than AMoC, but the ranking also takes into account which of the tier talents are noticeably better in performance.

As Nooska said, BS is passive, can reset bad pet pathing (though there are certain instances where pet pathing is just terrible in ToT), and does not suffer from poor timing, as AMoC can certainly do. Even if it was a nominal dps decrease, BS would still be slightly recommended (though that is not the case for haste > crit > mastery or crit > haste > mastery in the simulators) to remove a high focus cost ability from your listing and to simplify the priority list (with comparable dps).

Also, are you sure you were modeling the priority list shown in the FD BiS profiles? I'd recommend doing an armory import with gear only and see what you get.


To be honest, the guide is likely to majorly change with the 5.4. Consequently, I haven't really been tweaking this guide recently, since I'm watching PTR updates to see just where we'll end up. I'll be sure to update everything and ask for community feedback once 5.4 goes live.




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