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5.4 Changes Discussion


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#1 Pathal

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:54 AM

Please hesitate to talk about data-mined changes as if they are fact. I will continue to keep this thread updated until patch day.

If I neglect to mention a change, or fail to mention that it is just a tooltip change after a day, feel free to mention it.

Tier 16 Bonuses - Datamined (June 27th)
  • Item - Rogue T16 2P Bonus - When you generate a combo point from Revealing Strike's effect, Honor Among Thieves, or Seal Fate, your next combo point generating ability has its energy cost reduced by 15. Stacks up to 5 times.
    • Actual reductions vary by spec:
    • Assassination - 6
    • Combat - 15
    • Subtlety - 2
  • Item - Rogue T16 4P Bonus - Killing Spree deals 10% more damage every time it strikes a target. Abilities against a target with Vendetta on it increase your mastery by 250 for 5 sec, stacking up to 20 times. Every time you backstab, you have a 4% chance to replaced your Backstab with Ambush that can be used regardless of Stealth.

Build 17337 - Aug 27th
  • Official
  • Rogue Tier-15 4-piece set bonus now causes Shadow Blades to reduce the cost of all abilities by 15% (down from 40%).

Build 17331 - Aug 26th
  • Official
  • Assassin's Resolve now increases damage by 25% (down from 30%).

Build 17299 - Aug 14th
  • Official
  • Fan of Knives damage has been increased by 25%.
  • Sinister Strike deals an increased 240% of weapon damage (up from 145%).
  • Assassin's Resolve now increases damage by 30% (up from 25%).
  • Dispatch now deals 645% weapon damage (up from 460%).
  • Mutilate now deals 280% weapon damage (up from 200%).
  • Revealing Strike now deals 160% weapons damage (up from 125%).
  • Vitality now increases Attack Power by 40% (up from 30%). *
  • Backstab now deals 380% weapon damage (up from 275%).
  • Sanguinary Vein now increases damage against targets with bleed effects by 25% (up from 20%).
*Typo? Reported to be 35% elsewhere.

Build 17191 - July 15th
  • Official
  • Sinister Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft now costs 50 energy (up from 40), and deals 190% weapon damage (up from 145%).
  • (New) Ruthlessness - Spell - World of Warcraft added (Combat only). 20% chance per CP consumed to add 1 CP whenever an offensive finisher is used (5CP finisher always adds 1), despite the tooltip wording.
  • Glyphs
  • Glyph of Adrenaline Rush is baselined. Replaced by Glyph of Redirect.
  • Glyph of Crippling Poison replaced by Glyph of Sharpened Knives.
  • Glyph of Debilitation replaced by Glyph of Rehabilitation.
  • Glyph of Sap replaced by Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins.
  • Glyph of Shiv now reduces the CD by 3s (was 2).
[/list]
Build 17169 - July 9th
[*]Official
  • Backstab now deals 315% weapon damage (up from 275%).
  • Hemorrhage now deals 160% weapon damage (up from 140%); 232% weapon damage if a dagger is equipped (up from 203% for daggers).
[/list]
** Confirmed by Regarious to be a 10% nerf from 20% AP per CP (as tested earlier this expansion). Apparently they never bothered to fix the tooltip for almost a year.

Build 17153 - July 3rd
[/list]
Build 17124 - June 27th
[/list]
Build 17056 - June 12th
  • Datamined
    • Cloak and Dagger - Your Ambush, Garrote, and Cheap Shot abilities can now be used from 20 30 yards away, and will cause you to appear behind your target.
    • Glyph of Recuperate - Increases the healing of your Recuperate ability by an additional 0.5% 1.0% of your maximum health.
  • Official
    • Recuperate now restores 4% of maximum health every 3 seconds, up from 3%.
    • Nightstalker now increases damage dealt by abilities while stealthed by 50%, up from 25%.
    • Killing Spree targeting has been changed. If Blade Flurry is not active, Killing Spree will now hit the Rogue's target 7 times or pick the closest eligible target if none had been selected. Killing Spree will continue to work as it has while Blade Flurry is active.


#2 Enzo90910

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:59 AM

Pasting FieryDemise preliminary EP figures for discussion

Assassination:
rogue_t16_4pc: 2719.90473874
rogue_t16_2pc: 1756.99995739
rogue_t14_4pc: 1372.55988662
rogue_t14_2pc: 1275.1598885
rogue_t15_4pc: 1157.0340252
rogue_t15_2pc: 1092.78891813


Combat:
rogue_t15_4pc: 14404.3437606
rogue_t14_4pc: 4124.97762166
rogue_t16_4pc: 2154.52391071
rogue_t14_2pc: 2018.42542082
rogue_t15_2pc: 594.551047193
rogue_t16_2pc: 21.2064835039

#3 Ptitcitron

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:05 AM

This is just my first thought about the new bonus.

these bonus seem quite unfair between the specs.

The 2 Part bonus :
- Combat : RvS is a flat 20% proc rate => you get 5 energy reduction every 5SS. So spend 200 energy, get back 5 energy.

- Assassination : the proc rate is depending on our crit %. Supose that you have 40% crit : For 1 mutilate the bonus should give you in average 3.2 energy plus 0.6 energy for the Blindside proc. You spend 55 énergy get 3.8 energy back.

- Subtlety : as explained you simply get 5 energy every ~2 sec.

I think that Combat has the smallest energy return from the bonus, and also has the worst DPE (Damage Per Energy) of our 3 specs.
For Subtlety : it will be a static energy regen of ~2.5 energy/sec
For Assassination : the bonus will scale well with the gear, and should make the crit EP higher than it is now.

For the 4 parts bonus :
- Combat : at first sight it is like Killing spree will hit 30% harder, it is nice for the burst damage, but it seems weak to me because killing spree is only around 4% of our damage.

- Assassination : the ramp up time will highly vary so it is hard to estimate the benefit of the bonus. But it doesn't seem bad to me.

- Subtlety : I don't know if the energy cost of this "free" ambush will still be 60 energy, but this bonus seems huge: if they let it so it will lead to almost 100% uptime of FW.

#4 Enzo90910

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:08 AM

Another datamined change is an enormous increase in the fangs of the father stacking agility bonus, from 17 AGI per stack to 57 AGI per stack: Fangs of the Father - Item Set - World of Warcraft

The hell if I know what it means though.

#5 Astraar

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:58 AM

Another datamined change is an enormous increase in the fangs of the father stacking agility bonus, from 17 AGI per stack to 57 AGI per stack: Fangs of the Father - Item Set - World of Warcraft

The hell if I know what it means though.


I think its an error. There are so many i cant count them all. Take this as an example Spinal Healing Injector

#6 Pathal

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:24 PM

It could just be a symptom of them converting the stacking procs to their new spell scaling mechanics. While that could mean it's not a buff (just a value at a different scale point), it would bring up the question of "why?"

Interesting, but unless we acquire more information, it's not very meaningful.

#7 Knarcus

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:08 PM

They didn't do anything about combat, which saddens me.
I enjoy playing combat and I was hoping for a fix to combat, maybe double the cost of CP builders during Cooldowns or something to address the issue of having way too much energy regen during CDs like they did with the GCD reduction with the T15 4p.

And on top of getting no fix the new T16 bonuses favors combat the least of all specs. And I probably won't be able to hold on to the T15 bonus because I will probably not get T15 hc before 5.4 hits. So for me that sounds like go assa or hope sublety gets competitive, because combat probably won't be competitive.

#8 Enzo90910

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:20 PM

They didn't do anything about combat, which saddens me.
I enjoy playing combat and I was hoping for a fix to combat, maybe double the cost of CP builders during Cooldowns or something to address the issue of having way too much energy regen during CDs like they did with the GCD reduction with the T15 4p.


I think you are overly pessimistic about this. They showed with T15-4P that they are very aware of the energy-capping problem for combat, and they know very well that this problem will be even more urging with T16 haste levels.

I fully expect to see a solution along the lines of your suggestion appear in future patch notes.

#9 Rfeann

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:42 PM

I admit I'm surprised to see *any* set bonus for the upcoming tier that reduces the cost of an ability. For exactly the reason you stated, Neïna, I expected the designers' sensitivity to energy-cap risks to lead them away from the direction in which the two-piece bonus appears to take us.

I've spent most of this expansion as Combat (and consigned largely to the deep, dark pits of LFR as punishment for what I can only assume are my past transgressions against humanity), so I don't have recent first-hand experience in Mut or Sub specs to rely on. For those of you who have been playing in those specs, how close have you come to energy capping (presumably during cooldowns) in the current raid tier? To what extent do the two-piece bonuses as currently modeled increase that risk as we progress through the next tier?

Meanwhile, is it possible to model assumptions regarding the likely stats on Tier 16 gear to see whether, the way the EP estimates shake out with our "very place holder" numbers, it would even be worthwhile for Combat rogues to break their T15 four-piece with the T16 four-piece?

I have a blog. The Red-Hatted Rogue Reporter. Is what it is called. By me.


#10 Enzo90910

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:54 PM

For those of you who have been playing in those specs, how close have you come to energy capping (presumably during cooldowns) in the current raid tier? To what extent do the two-piece bonuses as currently modeled increase that risk as we progress through the next tier?


As Mutilate, I come pretty close to energy capping during SB, but it's only because of the T15-4P. IMHO, switching from it to the T16-2P will clearly attenuate the risk, even with increased haste levels.

#11 Palanuial

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:37 PM

I think you are overly pessimistic about this. They showed with T15-4P that they are very aware of the energy-capping problem for combat, and they know very well that this problem will be even more urging with T16 haste levels.

I fully expect to see a solution along the lines of your suggestion appear in future patch notes.


Combat had issues with being GCD capped last expansion, and they still let it happen again this time around. Hell, it's worse now. So don't count on anything.

#12 no19

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:59 PM

FW coverage has been around ~40% since 4.3.
With some napkin math:
Level 93 bosses have ~35% damage reduction from armor.
The damage increase during FW: 0.35/(1-0.35)=53%.
With 4T16:
Total output increase assuming 80% FW coverage: 17%
Total output increase assuming 100% FW coverage: 26%

If it turns out OP on PTR, I expect it to be changed to something like "Every 48 Backstabs, your Backstab is replaced with Ambush that can be used regardless of Stealth." In this case, it may become more situational.

#13 Jodou

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:41 AM

For the 4 parts bonus :

- Assassination : the ramp up time will highly vary so it is hard to estimate the benefit of the bonus. But it doesn't seem bad to me.

What strikes me as interesting about this bonus is fights like Tortos, where it would be incredibly useful for destroying adds quickly and then having a massive damage boost for the length of Vendetta on the boss.

#14 Flukz

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:44 AM

Combat had issues with being GCD capped last expansion, and they still let it happen again this time around. Hell, it's worse now. So don't count on anything.


Combat being gcd capped during cd's isnt that much of a problem imo. It actually fits pretty well thematically with one having an "adrenaline rush." Being gcd capped with a .5 sec gcd is what's really awful. That just isn't fun to play.

#15 Enzo90910

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:44 AM

It could just be a symptom of them converting the stacking procs to their new spell scaling mechanics. While that could mean it's not a buff (just a value at a different scale point), it would bring up the question of "why?"


On the PTR right now, outside of any instance and so hopefully without any item scaling happening, the Shadows of the Destroyer buffs gives 57 AGI (59 for the first stack for me actually but that is probably the leather 5% bonus).

#16 Stealthcat

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:24 PM

I wonder how much of an upgrade 4xT16 will be for combat seeing how much DPS 4xT15 gives.

#17 Viper

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:58 PM

Historically if a set bonus of a previous tier is so powerful that it prevents you from ever upgrading, they've either made some aspect of that bonus baseline (and removed it from the bonus) or just nerfed the bonus (while buffing the class/spec to balance). I suspect they'll have to do something along those lines to manage the enormous dps loss of breaking that 4-piece for combat.

#18 shadowboy813

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:57 PM

The combat t16 4-set appears to work this way: Each strike does 10% more damage than the last, stacking multiplicatively.

first strike: 1.5
second strike: 1.65
third strike: 1.81
fourth strike: 2.00
fifth strike: 2.20
sixth strike: 2.42
seventh strike: 2.66

It appears as though the general damage increase is not affected, only the killing spree hits.

Posted Image

Test was done with a 3.03 dps 1.8 speed dagger in each hand, 4 pieces of T16 (shoulders, chest, gloves, legs), tier was not gemmed or enchanted. No other items were equipped.

Based on the numbers I posted above, 2.66 / 1.5 = 1.77, so we'd expect the 7th strike to be 1.77x the damage of the first. Looking at the MH hits, 5025 / 2837 = 1.771. If you look at the main gauche hits during the killing spree, they did not change so the damage bonus is not increased, only the killing spree strike damage. (granted, there were only two MG hits and one was a crit, but they were early and late into the spree so it's easy to conclude the damage was the normal 1.5x)

Edit: It appears as though the killing spree strikes immediately start at the first 10%. Since MG and KS are both normalized, we'd expect KS MH hits to be 1.25x the damage of MG. The first KS hit is actually 1.37 the unbuffed MG strike. 1.37 / 1.25 ~= 1.096, so the first killing spree hit is increased by 10%. This modifies the values to 1.65 (1.5 * 1.1), 1.81, 2.00, 2.20, 2.41, 2.66, 2.92.

The set bonus is effectively a ~50% increase to killing spree's direct damage, when averaged out.

#19 Pathal

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:27 PM

From what I gather, the spells aren't quite working as you would think according to the datamined info, particularly the 2 pieces.

I'll wait for logs before I start mathing stuff out and updating.

#20 Nidix

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 06:25 AM

Expecting some changes to the 2set Tier at least, cause right now they are forcing us away from Combat if favor of Assa and Sub. And taking into account their neverending talks about how they want every spec to be viable this wont work. Granted, all specs are never viable. Right now though, if they dont buff combat for PvE it will be a dead spec, cause its to far behind in PvP and soon it wont work in PvE without fixes.
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