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5.4 Changes Discussion


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#21 Pathal

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:21 AM

I'm looking for a little more information about how the 2 piece works out. Still need to know if the charges stay during dodge/parry/missed attacks, and if the energy refunded is before or after the energy reduction (I assume after, refunding 40% of 55 sounds like a bug when it would cost, say, 35).

#22 raffy

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:08 AM

I don't know where to post this (since there are three spec threads and I'm not sure which one might use Rune of Re-Origination) but I am the developer of Catus (feral simulator/reforger) and Zephyrus (monk reforger) and I just added Rogue support to Zephyrus.

Forum: http://fluiddruid.ne...&p=17631#p17631

Download: https://dl.dropboxus...-LatestBeta.zip

I'm not sure what gems would be considered for each spec (so it's currently using what Windwalker uses) or if this is even useful, but if anyone is curious, give it a shot :P

#23 koaschten

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:10 PM

Shadowcraft is that way -> ShadowCraft - Rogue DPS Spreadsheet

;)
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#24 Pathal

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:14 AM

Let's not bicker about which reforger is best, or what have you. The community could always use another algorithm in a P vs NP situation.

If there ends up being enough discussion for Zephyrus on here, it should have it's own thread. Otherwise it should probably utilize the Simple Questions and Answers thread.

This thread (5.4 Discussion) should be specifically for new mechanics to theorycraft in 5.4, PTR testing, and things of that ilk.

#25 ninjawhite

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:39 AM

5.4 Raid - Normal - Siege of Orgrimmar - Boss X Loot X - Agi DPS Trinket (1)

This seems like it could potentially be ungodly strong for combat.

I'm super interested to see how all these new trinkets pan out, it looks like they aren't making it any easier for you guys to model, but these new data mined procs seem very intresting.

#26 Ondersjaak

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:31 PM

Seeing the seemingly random percentage of 39% on the trinket, I think it's safe to assume that it increases with item level. Would be very interesting to try out on combat, indeed! Especially when combined with the old T15 4-set. Who knows, we might end up going KS -> AR -> KS -> AR -> KS and so on :P

#27 Rfeann

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:21 PM

It probably goes without saying, but remember that PTR tuning hasn't begun yet. It's entirely possible that all of the numbers in these trinket tooltips are place holders, and that the most useful analysis we can provide now would revolve around the value/viability/idea of even having raid-drop trinkets with as fascinating and unique a bevy of benefits as these seem to provide:


The developers are certainly following through on their expressed desire to make trinkets more interesting. But can they realistically be balanced without sucking up a ton of development time?

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#28 fierydemise

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:19 PM

5.4 Raid - Normal - Siege of Orgrimmar - Boss X Loot X - Agi DPS Trinket (1)

This seems like it could potentially be ungodly strong for combat.

I'm super interested to see how all these new trinkets pan out, it looks like they aren't making it any easier for you guys to model, but these new data mined procs seem very intresting.

Since 39% is such an off the wall number I'm almost positive the trinket will have spec specific tooltips. It will still probably be pretty good for combat but not totally off the charts OP like people are thinking.

Realistically between spec specific RPPM modifiers like the legendary gem and other spec specific behavior getting these reasonably balanced shouldn't be that hard.

#29 Viper

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:30 PM

It'll be interesting to see where the tuning lands for the CD reduction trinket. From that wowhead link, it reduces the CD on Cloak and Smoke Bomb for every spec in addition to the damage CDs. Seems like that would at the very least be a solid tie breaker in choosing trinkets.

#30 Ech1zen

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:30 AM

From what is going on on PTR 2 piece set bonus was reworked. Now it decreases energy cost for subtlety by 3 energy. For combat by 10. And for assa by (WTF) 20.
I cant understand why they did it. It's really easy to understand that combat has the smallest proc chance of all specs. And as for now it looks very very good for assa. In raid it will be nonstop proc with very big impact on dps. And it procs from dispatch too...

Anyway IDK why they did it but as for now it seems very tasty.

#31 Rfeann

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 04:49 AM

From what is going on on PTR 2 piece set bonus was reworked. Now it decreases energy cost for subtlety by 3 energy. For combat by 10. And for assa by (WTF) 20.
I cant understand why they did it. It's really easy to understand that combat has the smallest proc chance of all specs. And as for now it looks very very good for assa. In raid it will be nonstop proc with very big impact on dps. And it procs from dispatch too...

Anyway IDK why they did it but as for now it seems very tasty.


The earliest observations of the tier bonus behavior that I recall seeing, shortly after the PTR first became playable, found something similar. This may just a case of the tooltip text not matching the first set of numbers they plugged in as placeholders/guesstimates.

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#32 Vigilate

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:33 AM

Some new stuff was datamined from the latest PTR build that pertains to Rogues. Again, PTR is PTR, so we'll see if these changes make it to live:
5.4 PTR: Build 17153 - Legendary Cloaks, Tier 16 Armor Models, Glyphs, and More - Wowhead News

New Glyphs:

-Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins: Your Saunguinary Veins ability now also increases damage done to targets affected by your Hemorrhage.

- Glyph of Recovery: While Recuperate is active, you receive 20% increased healing from other sources.

- Glyph of Redirect: Redirect no longer has a cooldown.

- Glyph of Sharpened Knives: Your Fan of Kinves also damages the armor of its victims, applying 1 application of the Weakened Armor effect to each target.


Set Bonuses:

- Item - Rogue T16 2P Bonus: When you generate a combo point from Revealing Strike's effect, Honor Among Thieves, or Seal Fate, your next combo point generating ability has its energy cost reduced by 5 15. Stacks up to 5 times.
- Item - Rogue T16 4P Bonus: Killing Spree deals 10% more damage every time it strikes a target. Abilities against a target with Vendetta on it increase your mastery by 250 for 5 sec, stacking up to 20 times. Every time you backstab, you have a 4% chance to replaced your Backstab with Ambush that can be used regardless of Stealth. (READ: Nerfed for Sub.)
----
The new Hemo Glyph is obviously meant more for pvp, but could help Sub in the target switching department if a mob needs to be bursted. Redirect glyph will also help out with high target switch fights. Sharpened Knives glyph is interesting in that I don't think another class has a way to apply Weakened Armor to multiple targets at the same time.

As for the set bonuses, the change to the 4pc T16 is obviously going to be a pretty decent blow to how strong it is for Sub.

#33 Rfeann

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:39 AM

I'm throwing together a blog post on this now, but regarding the two-piece bonus, the datamining won't be sufficient because the energy discount changes from spec to spec.

From what I see right now on the PTR, the energy-reduction per stack is now:

  • Assassination: 6 (down from 10)
  • Combat: 15 (down from 20)
  • Subtlety: 2 (down from 3)

Also, just to clarify the mechanic on the altered four-piece for Sub, it looks like the "proc" affects what would have been the *next* Backstab. Which... OK, that's probably pretty obvious.

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#34 Draigars

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:15 AM

Did some testing with the new trinkets.

#1: "Increased Cooldown Recovery Rate": (normal cooldown) / 1.39, and not (normal cooldown) * (1-0.39).
Cooldown reduction is applied once you got the trinket equipped, so no weird behaviour with Restless Blades or addons such as OmniCC.

Proc is called Dextrous and is ICD-based. ICD is 105 sec.

Spoiler
#2: Multistrike can trigger on melee attacks, special attacks (Mutilate, Mutilate OH, Shadow Blade, Dispatch, Envenom), Deadly Poison's ticks and Rupture's ticks. Seems it can't trigger on Instant Poison (none in over 10 minutes of combatlog, which is about 750 IP events).

Spoiler
#3: Haven't tested anything yet.

#4: This trinket is RPPM-based. Each melee strike removes 1 stack. Envenom, Rupture, Dispatch all remove 1 stack. Mutilate removes 2 stacks. Poisons (both DP and IP) don't remove stacks. Seems like there's no hidden effect to increases the duration of the proc. Lasts about 5 sec on opening (Assassination, without T15 4P).

Spoiler
#5: Very straightforward one, proc is called Master, is also ICD-based, which also is 105 sec.

Spoiler

Parses can be found here: parse #1 (~15 minutes with standard Assa rotation without any item equipped but daggers and trinkets #1 and #2); parse #2 (~50 minutes autoattack & poisons without any item equipped but daggers and trinkets #4 and #5); parse #3 (Assa opening with full gear to verify trinket #4 is RPPM and its proc's duration on normal conditions).

#35 Kisla

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:42 AM

General

Eviscerate now deals 10% less damage.

Talents

Burst of Speed's cost has been reduced to 15 Energy (down from 30 Energy).
Cheat Death now reduces damage taken by 85% after activating (up from 80%).
Cloak and Dagger now allows the Rogue to use Ambush, Garrote, and Cheap Shot from 40 yards away (up from 30 yards).
Shadowstep now has a reduced cooldown of 20 seconds (down from 24 seconds).

Assassination

Assassination Rogues should no longer be eligible for any other weapon types except daggers in situations where loot is automatically awarded(Raid Finder, Bonus Rolls, Heroic/Normal Scenarios, and the upcoming Flexible Raid difficulty.)

Subtlety

Backstab now deals 315% weapon damage (up from 275%).
Hemorrhage now deals 160% weapons damage (up from 140%); 232% weapons damage if a dagger is equipped (up from 203% for daggers).


Hope there is a compensation to combat for the damage loss on evis, which is clearly a PvP nerf, or its gonna be dead for sure

#36 Enzo90910

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:48 AM

Hope there is a compensation to combat for the damage loss on evis, which is clearly a PvP nerf, or its gonna be dead for sure


If FieryDemise's prelim numbers are correct, this is not that big a nerf for Combat. Also, please remember the PvE numbers will be adjusted at the very end of the PTR lifecycle, Combat is nowhere near dead yet.

#37 dizzlex

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:17 PM

Subtlety

Backstab now deals 315% weapon damage (up from 275%).
Hemorrhage now deals 160% weapons damage (up from 140%); 232% weapons damage if a dagger is equipped (up from 203% for daggers).

These are some fairly significant changes to Sub damage. Any idea if this type of increase is enough to make sub viable in pve again (assuming the changes stick)?

#38 Rfeann

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:01 PM

As Fierydemise's numbers in the post above yours suggest (and Snail's SimC figures seem to concur), when coupled with the Eviscerate nerf we're essentially looking at a wash. Which is likely exactly the intent: Reduce Sub burst while stepping up its sustained active damage, a request that PvPers have been making for some time now.

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#39 Enzo90910

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:18 PM

Reduce Sub burst while stepping up its sustained active damage, a request that PvPers have been making for some time now.


And incidentally, many suggested good ideas for rogues over the years have been rejected with "but this suggested improvement combined with Rogue burst in PvP can't be balanced" (Rogue here meaning Subtlety). If Subtlety's burst gets a real nerf (which would obviously not be good for us in PvP), Rogue de facto is not such a bursty class anymore, and we may expect nice things in exchange (take what I say with a grain of salt though, I really don't know the PvP landscape at all, and Rogues in PvP barely better).

#40 Kisla

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 07:45 AM

Here’s a couple changes we’re going to try, hopefully in the next PTR build:

- Sinister Strike: Weapon damage percent increased from 145% to 190%. Energy cost increased from 40 energy to 50 energy.
- Ruthlessness: This new passive has been added for Combat Rogues at level 32. When you do a finishing move, you have a 20% chance per combo point spent to immediately regain 1 combo point on your current target.




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