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5.4 Changes Discussion


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#41 shadowboy813

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 10:57 PM

I just did some testing on ruthlessness (and how it interacts with anticipation) and glyph of recovery.

Glyph of recovery behaves exactly as the wording suggests. Recuperate's healing is not increased by the glyph. Leeching Poison's heal is--both the weapon strikes and the shiv effect. Also life spirit and health potion heals were increased. The Life Spirit HoT is updated per-tick (not snapshot at cast), so I presume so are HoTs from other healers. If recuperate falls off before any HoT durations expire, remaining ticks will not benefit from the +20% healing.

The more interesting mechanics: Ruthlessness and Anticipation: The combo points granted from anticipation are added to ruthlessness (or vice versa), but overflow does NOT grant anticipation charges. If ruthlessness goes live, a combat rotation will go from 4+ap (3+ during SB) to a 3+ap (2+ during SB) rotation. If you cast rupture or eviscerate at 5cp + 4ap, you end up with 5cp on your target (4 from anticipation, 1 from ruthlessness). If you cast it at 5cp + 5ap, you end up with 5cp and no ap, wasting a combo point.

Trinkets: The cleave and multistrike trinket attacks do not proc poisons, nor do they cause leeching poison heals.

#42 koaschten

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:53 PM

Patch 5.4 PTR - Build 17205
- Evasion is now 100% dodge.
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#43 Pathal

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:23 PM

Does anyone know if they've contemplated swapping the (now baselined) AR glyph CD reduction value with the t15 4pc reduction? So that we would get a .3s reduction during AR instead of .2, and the tier bonus would only give .2 instead of .3s.

Seems like it would preserve some of the current scaling dynamics, while reducing the significance of the tier bonus. I'm not sure if the APM and dependency on low latency would still be a major concern though.

#44 ninjawhite

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 08:26 PM

Does anyone know if they've contemplated swapping the (now baselined) AR glyph CD reduction value with the t15 4pc reduction? So that we would get a .3s reduction during AR instead of .2, and the tier bonus would only give .2 instead of .3s.

Seems like it would preserve some of the current scaling dynamics, while reducing the significance of the tier bonus. I'm not sure if the APM and dependency on low latency would still be a major concern though.


I haven't seen anything, but I do feel like I'm going to be stuck in T15 for a while, unless I just cave in and play assassination.

I do hope they address combat some more before 5.4 goes live. It would be nice to see it back on par with assassination, even if its harder to play for the same dps.

#45 Ech1zen

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 11:25 AM

I dont think they will do something significant in 5.4. They did already some changes and they cant do much in patches. But as they stated they will rework rogues and hunters in 6.0 so we must wait. Although it will take 9-12 months to actually see it live.

#46 Pathal

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:59 PM

I don't think swapping .2 and .3 counts as a major or significant change. Just a number tweaking one.

#47 Ech1zen

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 01:03 PM

Well even if they will do it I am not sure it will be enough. Due to the cd reduction trinket even 0.2 sec GCD reduction is too good. At least better then normal T16 set. Maybe even better then heroic. So they need to nerf T15 to 0.1 sec like they did to holy pals, or buff T16 for combat which will be much better because it provides really weak bonus for combat compared to assasination.

#48 Rfeann

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 08:05 PM

Well, we know they're not done. We know they're very much aware of the T15 issue and that they plan to do something about it. We just don't know precisely what. Most detailed recent bit we've seen is this, from Blizz CM Lore via Twitter:

‏@Fierydemise: It really should be as simple as nerf 4pc T15, tinker with all the other modifiers (vit, RvS, etc.)

‏@devolore: I believe that’s along the lines of what we’re thinking. Not positive though.

We also know they haven't yet started their damage tuning in earnest, though I remember seeing a couple of tweets/blue posts here and there over the past week or so that suggest it'll begin pretty soon.

I duno about toying with the cooldown further, Pins. We saw what happened in the current tier, and for the most part it wasn't a happy thing. If AR's GCD slash were increased to .3, between that and natural haste scaling in T16, wouldn't we just find ourselves facing the same ultra-spammy gameplay issues we've had in ToT, even with the 20% SS energy cost increase?

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#49 Pathal

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 10:03 PM

Well, APS (actions per second) is actually exponential as you decrease the GCD. Not sure where the last time I posted the charts to show it are, but you can look at the APS as if it were Y = 1/(X + C) from 0 to 1.

X would be the GCD size, C would be some value that represents how quickly you can activate a GCD after the previous one ends. If C is 0, as you approach 0 from the right, 1/x approaches infinity. Which everyone would agree is quite spammy. Lets say C is .1, that caps us at 10 abilities per second even if there is no GCD. But that's an extreme case. Lets look at C being .05 from a GCD of .8 and .7. That brings us to 1/(.85) = 1.17647058824 and 1/(.75) = 1.33333333333. This is about a 13% increase in APS if you're spamming ASAP.

We should also calculate ToT levels, with X = .50, C = .05, that's 1.81818181818 APS, which is ~36% higher than what I'm bringing up.

*Deep breath* Now. This also doesn't cover the changes to SS, and only calculates the APS cap. However, I think you would agree that this isn't going to be like t15. It has the potential to be higher than MSV, for sure, but it's nothing like the 2 abilities per second you could hypothetically reach with that 4 piece.

Folks would just need to get onto the PTR and test with high t16 levels of haste, no t15 bonus and see how it feels now. Then think about how another 10-13% would feel.

#50 Nidix

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:06 AM

Im not to worried tbh about any changes, if they force us to much towards on spec or another I guess we just have to settle for that spec for that time, I mean, look at Wotlk Naxx, you had to play Assa to be able to do shit, then for Ulduar Combat became viable again(yay thats the spirit), in Dragonsoul with legendary daggers it was Sub for best dmg, I guess its just time for Assa again.
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#51 Pathal

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 02:44 AM

I'm going to need someone to help me verify the damage formula for Eviscerate sometime. I just need to know the damage range for normal and crits, and your AP + mastery (if you do it as sub) + whatever buffs you have at the time like RvS. Make sure your buffs don't change (nor the debuffs on the target dummy), nor your AP. I really don't care if your crit/haste fluctuates, nor if there's more hits than crits.

I just need a strong sizable sample to make sure the values fit in the right range, because the datamined Eviscerate formula has historically been wrong.

#52 Kryptomaniac

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:25 PM

I'm going to need someone to help me verify the damage formula for Eviscerate sometime. I just need to know the damage range for normal and crits, and your AP + mastery (if you do it as sub) + whatever buffs you have at the time like RvS. Make sure your buffs don't change (nor the debuffs on the target dummy), nor your AP. I really don't care if your crit/haste fluctuates, nor if there's more hits than crits.

I just need a strong sizable sample to make sure the values fit in the right range, because the datamined Eviscerate formula has historically been wrong.


Ill hop on and do a large sample. What sort of length you looking at for a reasonable sample to work with, 30 minutes, hour? Etc. And do you want it for both specs?

#53 Pathal

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:40 PM

It doesn't matter that much, the number of eviscerates is more important. Something like 30 eviscerates should be enough but I'd never complain about getting more. Also, just Combat or Sub is fine. Shouldn't be a need to do more.

I just need to stress that they're all done with the same conditions (ap, # of cps, whatever affects the damage of Evisc).

#54 Kryptomaniac

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:16 PM

It doesn't matter that much, the number of eviscerates is more important. Something like 30 eviscerates should be enough but I'd never complain about getting more. Also, just Combat or Sub is fine. Shouldn't be a need to do more.

I just need to stress that they're all done with the same conditions (ap, # of cps, whatever affects the damage of Evisc).


Alright. I've got a log for you here.

Logs

Gave you exactly 30 Eviscerates. This was done on a level 80 training dummy (didn't think it mattered, all the raiding dummies I could find had people on them). I also did this with no insight, and yes there are dancing steel procs, but I made sure that none of them were up when I used Eviscerate. Also no RVS

Current stats are:
26806 Agility
70168 Attack Power
Crits at 26.65% (I can ramp up the crit by a bunch if you would like to see more crit damage, since I only got 7 crits).
6005-11153 Weapon damage on MAIN HAND
6469-12016 Weapon damage on OFF HAND.

If you'd like some different samples, in a little bit I'm willing to do a larger sample, with Eviscerates with: RvS, No RvS, and the different insights with and without RVS. Let me know. Though im unsure of how I would split them up in the logs.


Edit: there's also a decent amount of procs on Flurry of xuen.

#55 Pathal

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:52 AM

Permission denied, but if you can just tell me the range and middle points that should be enough.

#56 grumpyfish

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 06:41 PM

The RPPM change and the 90 second since last proc trinket change seem like they are going to put mastery back on top of haste again. Has anyone done any testing on that?

#57 Astraar

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 11:09 AM

As far as i understand the mmo-champ table.
They remove Haste-Scaling for the most RPPM Trinkets, Gems and Enchants. The only thing for us (in BiS Gears as example) that still scale is the Legendary Gem and the new Cloak. I really think Mastery will be better 5.4 again.

#58 fierydemise

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 11:17 AM

The RPPM change and the 90 second since last proc trinket change seem like they are going to put mastery back on top of haste again. Has anyone done any testing on that?

Haste will still be better than in T14 because of the legendary meta gem which does still scale with haste but mastery will be stronger than haste in general. The T16 2pc inflates the value of crit for assassination and it appears will make haste and crit of comparable value for assassination but still both behind mastery.

#59 koaschten

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:28 PM

From the latest PTR changes.

Evasion now has a 2 min cooldown, down from 3. Now has a 10 sec duration, down from 15.


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#60 Calchexas

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:13 PM

Haste will still be better than in T14 because of the legendary meta gem which does still scale with haste but mastery will be stronger than haste in general. The T16 2pc inflates the value of crit for assassination and it appears will make haste and crit of comparable value for assassination but still both behind mastery.


"Trinket, enchant, set bonus, and legendary meta-gem effects whose triggered effect benefits from haste no longer also have their chance to trigger the benefit from haste. Activation chances and internal cooldowns for those effects and other trinket effects have been adjusted to compensate and will now be displayed on their tooltip." - From 5.4 Patch notes. It appears that the legendary meta-gems will no longer scale with haste.




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