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[Item] Banner of Command


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#1 Starfire

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:55 AM

This might sound a little unorthodox, but I think this is also one of the areas where the League theorycrafting to the public is rather lacking. There are quite a few "gem" of items out there that are honestly quite good in the right situations.

Banner of Command has been making a slight awareness leap because of the "Burning Bush Zyra" or so, but overall it's a rather interesting item.

What is it?

40 Ability Power
30 Armor
10% Cooldown Reduction

Unique - Valor: Nearby allies gain 10 health regen per 5 seconds and nearby allied minions have 15% increased attack damage and ability power.
Unique - Promote: Transforms a nearby siege minion to a more powerful unit. You gain all the gold this unit earns. 180 second cooldown.

I think this item is quite a bit underrated in terms of it's defense potential vs. physical damage. Only other item that gives both armor and ability power is Zhonya's (via Seeker's Armguard) and Iceborn Gauntlets.

Another often overlooked aspect of this item is the fact it upgrades the Emblem of Valor's Unique Active and thus does stack with the Aegis of the Legion and Locket of the Iron Solari's Unique Active of Legion.

But the most important attribute and often most overlooked aspect is the 15% damage increase to "nearby allied minions" because this is fantastic for sieging, especially with superminions but also for certain champions. Namely, Zyra, Annie, Malzhar, Mordekaiser, Yorick, Elise, Heimerdinger, Shaco, Notably however, it does not affect Lulu's Pix, Swain's Beatrice or Valor (Quinn).

At first glance, it might be safe to assume Banner of Command just increases the coefficient on abilities by 15% (for example raising Zyra's coefficient on her plants from .2 AP per an attack to .23 AP per an attack) however the Banner also increases the base damage by 15% as well.

The best part of this item though, is the AP Carry (or Shaco/Yorick) do not need to pick-up the item itself but rather a support can.

Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.


#2 Lanky

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:10 PM

I would be happy to test out Yorick with Banner of command, I think of the heroes you have mentioned, Yorick stands to gain the most from playing with it (followed by Elise, maybe), though his mixed ratios (AD and AP) and relatively terrible scaling on Ghouls suggests it may not matter regardless. Zyra abuses the banner because her flowers do impressive scaling damage as is, so 15% on top of that is icing.

The other potential strategy here is obviously push-comps that contain Zyra and then Yorick/Elise top, who both buy banners and upgrade siege minions whenever possible. Given how inexpensive the full item is, such a strategy might not completely compromise those champions and their 'normal' item paths.

#3 Montegomery

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:12 PM

Some important information from the Wiki:

Contrary to the in-game description, Banner of Command does not increase a minion's total damage. Instead, it increases their attack damage or ability power stats. As such, Banner Of Command only increases the damage dealt by the minion's basic attacks and has no effect on other damaging effects the pet has (such as Tibber's aura).


For pretty much anything that isn't Tibbers this is a meaningless distinction, but it's good to keep in mind in case someone brings up BoC on Annie.


The big problem with BoC is that 2360g is still a lot of gold. Investing that gold into other items will typically result in a significantly greater personal benefit, one that isn't dependent upon the fickleness of minion AI. So while it's amusing to imagine Zyra, Heimerdinger, or Malzahar with this item, they're all better of building other things.

A mathematical example:
Spoiler


A critical takeaway here is that, like Zeke's or WotA, Banner of Command is best when someone else is buying the item for you and/or you have multiple champions who can benefit. Multiple Banners also won't stack well, as auras can only stack twice on those holding the aura item (and minions aren't holding anything).

So Banner is probably best in a team with two or more champions who spawn minions, and the more reliable the minions the better. Yorick is definitely the #1 Banner Bearer so long as his AD isn't building BotRK + PD (which some Vaynes do), as his Revenant is probably the most reliable minion in the game and scales off the items someone else is building.

... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.


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#4 Thong Bonerstorm

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:24 PM

Could we discuss the active?

Promote: Transforms a nearby siege minion to a more powerful unit. You gain all the gold this unit earns. 180 second cooldown.


This seems like it would have applications for push heavy comps, but since its definitely not an item you can realistically rush, what kind of fun stuff can be done with a big minion?

Since, Yorick is being talked about, I could see this be combined with the Captain Enchantment (which also effects his ghouls) to create a very fast and powerful split push. Obviously he doesn't have a global presence like Shen for instance, but he is a pretty strong dueler and he would need to be addressed rather quickly to avoid losing a tower.

#5 Montegomery

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:56 PM

The promoted minion is strong, but late-game an enemy team will still obliterate it quickly. The most interesting application I've seen has been to promote a bot lane siege minion just before a Baron standoff or top lane push. This guarantees the bottom lane will push (barring opposing super minions), and creates pressure on your opponents as they'll lose farm and potentially a tower.

However, it requires your team to stall. I don't think I've ever seen a solo queue team successfully stall at baron/during a push that wasn't far ahead anyway. Most players don't seem to understand the concept, don't buy into it, or get too antsy.

... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.


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#6 Starfire

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:27 PM

I think the actual best abuser is AD Malzhar, but he's pretty much disappeared after the Black Cleaver nerf. Yorick and Mordekaiser are also fairly good abusers too (especially since Mordekasier will likely be aiming for the enemy AD Carry and multiplying their damage by 15% is quite a bit).

Also, Monte, I get the left side of your equation, but could you explain the right side?

Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.


#7 Montegomery

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 12:45 AM

I'm presuming you mean the ((AP) * 0.03 + 3.9 + 0.9 *18) * # of Plant Attacks part.

As I noted earlier, Banner of Command increases the AD and AP of affected minions by 15%. Zyra's plants do magic damage equivalent to their AP, which is 0.2 * Zyra's AP + 26 + 6 * Zyra's Level. So multiply that by 15% and you get AP * .03 + 3.9 + .9 * Level (which for the purposes of my calculations was 18).

... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.


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#8 Starfire

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 03:07 AM

Let me rephrase, where does a .03 coefficient come in to play?

And why wouldn't we just do 1.15(0.2 * AP + 26 + 6(18)), so 1.15(0.2(AP) + 134), which would just work out to .23 AP + 154 (per # of Plant Attacks).

Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.


#9 Montegomery

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 05:07 AM

It's because we're considering the difference between the Banner build and the non-Banner build. Anything that affects both builds equally is unnecessary math. In this case, 1.0 out of the 1.15 multiplier you're using affects both sides equally. In depth:

[B]Left Side:[/B]
Total Non-Banner AP * (Zyra's Abilty Ratios + Zyra's Plant Ratio * # of Plant Attacks) + (Plant Base Damage + Plant per Level Damage * Level) * # of Plant Attacks
120 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) + (26 + 6 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks

[B]Right Side:[/B]
Total Banner AP * (Zyra's Abilty Ratios + Zyra's Plant Ratio * # of Plant Attacks * 1.15) + 1.15 * (Plant Base Damage + Plant per Level Damage * Level) * # of Plant Attacks
40 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 1.15) + 1.15 * (26 + 6 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks


[b]Row 1:[/b] 120 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) + (26 + 6 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks = 40 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 1.15) + 1.15 * (26 + 6 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks
[b]Row 2:[/b] 120 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = 40 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 1.15) + 0.15 * (26 + 6 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks
[b]Row 3:[/b] 120 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = 40 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 1.15) + (3.9 + .9 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks
[b]Row 4:[/b] 120 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7) + 120 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = 40 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7) + 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 1.15) + (3.9 + .9 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks
[b]Row 5:[/b] 80 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7) + 120 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 1.15) + (3.9 + .9 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks
[b]Row 6:[/b] 80 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7) + 120 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) + 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 0.15) + (3.9 + .9 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks
[b]Row 7:[/b] 80 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7) + 80 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 0.15) + (3.9 + .9 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks
[b]Row 9:[/b] 80 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 0.15) + (3.9 + .9 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks

Explanation:

It's basically just the liberal application of Factoring and the Subtraction Property of Equality, with a touch of the Distributive Property. Here's how you arrive at each row:

Row 1: ---
Row 2: Subtract (26 + 6 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks from both sides.
Row 3: Multiple out 0.15 (26 + 6 * 18) * # of Plant Attacks
Row 4: Factor 40 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 1.15) into 40 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7) + 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 1.15)
Row 5: Subtract 40 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7) from both sides.
Row 6: Factor 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 1.15) into 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) + 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks * 0.15).
Row 7: Subtract 40 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) from both sides.
Row 8: Distribute 80 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7) + 80 AP * (0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) into 80 AP * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks)

If we were spreadsheeting out different builds to see total damages we wouldn't get this specific, but my original math was purely for the purpose of demonstrating a fundamental problem with Banner on Zyra. Specifically, if you're only getting Banner for your own, personal damage then it's underwhelming.

... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.


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