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Prot [5.4] - EF You


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#1 Wrathblood

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:16 PM

This post has been promoted to an article

Edited by Wrathblood, 25 October 2013 - 05:27 PM.


#2 Wrathblood

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:40 PM

Got bored waiting for 5.4 so I'm getting started early.

Gonna be a work in progress for a bit.

#3 Capstone

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 05:38 AM

Have you considered breaking it up differently? Currently there's a lot of: 'basic info', 'advanced info', 'digression', 'more basic info', etc. Might make more sense to progress from basic definitions and ability descriptions on to standard starting info like rotation and talent build and then on to more advanced topics like gearing strategies, glyph alternatives, gameplay tips and tricks.

On a somewhat related note, I would love to see a section (or perhaps another thread?) on boss-specific tips and tricks.

I know you haven't updated this yet for 5.4 so I won't comment on any specifics yet in the thread except for one: you say take the highest ilvl piece regardless of stats present on the item. That seems debatable to me; personally I wouldn't take a WF dodge/parry item over a normal hit/haste, but if I'm wrong in that thinking I would welcome discussion on the topic.

#4 Wrathblood

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 05:49 PM

Heh, I had my notes together on what I wanted to rewrite and I thought I had a fair bit of time carved out to work on it (and I was pleased to have finally come up with a good title for it), then a bunch of stuff happened and I didn't get to work on it for a couple days. Wish I had waited a couple days before putting it up.

Personally, I wouldn't be excited to take a Dodge/Parry WF piece over a normal Hit/Haste piece, but I'd still do it because working around our Hit and Exp caps is going to be a major issue. We have Hit, Exp and red sockets (which means Haste/Exp gems if you're a compulsive socket matcher like I am) ALL OVER our gear. My personal BiS list (for normals) has 16 Red gem slots. I'll be happy if I can match half of those without going over EXP beyond what I can fix with reforging. So picking up a piece of gear without Hit or Expertise is, weirdly, an itemization luxury.

Itemization is interesting this tier. We've got a bunch of Haste/Mastery off-tier pieces (and its possible those will be superior to Dodge/Parry or, worse, Hit/Exp, of higher ilevel) so while our tier is much better itemized than it has been in the past, there are also strong alternatives. Mrs Wrath is out of town this weekend. I'm watching the Wrathettes, but hope I can get them watching cartoons and do a bunch of number crunching.

Edit - The organizational change is an interesting idea but not particularly in my wheelhouse. We'll see.

#5 Wrathblood

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:32 PM

Ok, finally on the case, updating the OP. Hopefully wrap it up tomorrow sometime.

#6 Incalcando

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:04 PM

I don't think advising people to go for EF generally without 4 set is a good idea. Heck, for any situation where we don't really drop below 65-70% or so all the time (which is very often with good CD usage and able healers) an absorb will still be better than a heal overhealing even with that 4 set. Also, glyph of the battle healer is still gonna be useful for any situation the damage on the tank is manageable while the raid is taking loads. On the PTR I tried it for most heroic boss tests (and I tested all of them with my guild) and it worked out alright, though I guess the damage on the tanks is gonna get higher on live.

#7 Wrathblood

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 03:47 AM

If the tank generally isn't being threatened, it doesn't really matter what the tank takes, because their health isn't being threatened. Also, bear in mind that EF will be putting out 3-4x the throughput of SS. Even if SS has 0% OH (and isn't increasing healer OH%), EF can have up to 65% OH% and still put out more effective healing than SS.

#8 Incalcando

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 12:18 PM

Well, I guess you are right about that, however if you are not really threatened and don't have 4 set, it's better imo to not lose any SotR uptime and stick to SS. In any case, without having seen how the bosses react on live, it's a bit hard to guess which talent will overall be optimal. It might be so that EF will turn out on top even if it means sacrificing SotR uptime just cause of how much it heals.

#9 Charybdis

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 01:46 PM

Theck has already tossed EF and SS at SimC, and gotten results that generally sway more towards EF since using EF, even at the expense of SotR uptime, has shown to reduce TMI: EF & You? | Sacred Duty

However, it'll still definitely depend on the fight. As Theck also notes, abilities and bosses that challenge one's instantaneous health (effectively your health pool plus any absorbs you have and such) will favor SS since your health and such at that exact moment are what counts.

#10 TheNikx

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 08:58 AM

Let me preface this by saying I tank for a semi-casual group. We only raid one day per week, but we finished ToT10 at 9/13H, so we're not top but I think we do pretty well for raiding 4 hr per week. So I'm not sure if this is an issue in cutting edge or top-tier raiding.

My concern with taking EF over SS is that you lose the ability to full heal with a self-WoG. Multiple times per raid I'm able to save myself from death (or, at least I think I do) with a self-WoG that heals for most or all of my missing health from the brink of death. To this end I only use SotR at 5 HoPo or to line it up with a large hit (talon rake, etc), so in the worst case scenario I can use a 2 HoPo WoG anytime if I need to, and a 3 HoPo WoG is only a couple seconds away at most.

Perhaps I should use SotR in most of those situations and trust my healers to save me (even though the next boss auto attack would kill me, through SotR possibly), and switch to EF as suggested?

#11 Wrathblood

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 04:05 PM

Personally I'm going to switch to EF and I've run through the same concerns over emergency self-WoGs that you've mentioned. After giving it some thought, remember that you will frequently only be refreshing EF with 3-4 stacks rather than the full 5, so as long as you are saving yourself with a 3 HoPo WoG (which shouldn't be hard to do. Banking 5 HoPo is even more important than before for exactly this reason) it will at worst refresh your EF while ticking for half as much (though, since you've just been pounded, you likely have additional Vengeance which will even things out slightly) which is still in the neighborhood of 70% as strong as SS would be under the same circumstances while ticking more often.

#12 TheNikx

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:56 PM

I've never used EF before and I miss read the tooltip. I didn't realize the EF isn't only a HoT but also keeps the direct heal from WoG. After reading your post and re-reading the tooltip I see my mistake now. Thanks for the help! I'll be switching to EF.

#13 Incalcando

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:53 PM

After having tested SS vs EF in raids on live, having cleared most of the instance on normal and tested endless mode proving grounds, my conclusion is:

Avoid SS like the devil, even if you don't have the 4 set. The difference is just massive. Remember, use it at 5 stacks of Bastion of Glory for maximum effect!

Didn't test battle healer glyph yet. I still assume there are fights we can get away without SoI healing ourselves but I will post more when I test it.

#14 Lowangel

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 04:02 PM

Here are the lines I'm using, HA is currently most recommended:
There was a recent mod version that sub EF into clcprot
http://www.curse.com...on-helper-clcpr



single target:

ef sorha sor5 cs j asgc as es hw how cons

aoe

ef sorha sor5 hor j asgc cons as lh hw how cons

EF is extremely powerful, hands down over SS, the theory crafter are generating the numbers, I'm curious if we should use EF regardless of our health level.

My majors are Alabaster Shield, Glyph of Avenging Wrath, and Word of glory (hence using it more often, maybe 80% health)

#15 Thels

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:52 PM

- At level 45, take Sacred Shield. Its the best one for tanking.


You probably want to update this. For beginner tanks, as well as tanks that are running very low Haste levels, Sacred Shield is probably still the best option, as it's hard to screw it up. Tanks that are aware of what they're doing and have a decent amount of haste should switch to EF, especially if they got the 4 piece, but even before.

Note that it is not required to keep EF running 100% of the time. Instead, you can wait for EF to fall off, and then the first time you take a decent dip in health, use EF to bring yourself up and apply the hot. This should be easier with 4p, as you don't have to worry about having 3 HoPo when EFing yourself, but if you bank your HoPo properly, you should always have 3+ HoPo, unless you just needed to SotR a special.

#16 Wrathblood

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:31 PM

Yeah, I'm actually editing this right now. I started it last week but got sidetracked on a number of things. I'm fixing prescriptive errors like that and then am bringing the coefficients up to date. Once that's done, I've decided to finally write up a brief "this is what you want to do" section to start things out.

#17 Sparklefever

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:16 PM

You forgot to add a late change to Sanctified Wrath; not only does SW reduce the cooldown on Judgment by 50%, it also increases Judgment's Holy Power generation to 2 for the duration (for Protection).

I recall you doing some basic napkin math on the main WoW forums when this change came out that actually concluded SW's holy power generation pulled ahead of HA for that, but it might have been someone else. Either way I'm going to give SW a whirl this week over HA as HA was fairly lackluster.

Also, your call to include it in the guide, but the fact that Execution Sentence snapshots while Light's Hammer dynamically updates is pretty important to their usage IMO.

You probably want to update this. For beginner tanks, as well as tanks that are running very low Haste levels, Sacred Shield is probably still the best option, as it's hard to screw it up. Tanks that are aware of what they're doing and have a decent amount of haste should switch to EF, especially if they got the 4 piece, but even before.

Note that it is not required to keep EF running 100% of the time. Instead, you can wait for EF to fall off, and then the first time you take a decent dip in health, use EF to bring yourself up and apply the hot. This should be easier with 4p, as you don't have to worry about having 3 HoPo when EFing yourself, but if you bank your HoPo properly, you should always have 3+ HoPo, unless you just needed to SotR a special.

At lower haste levels, EF and SS are still the same comparison; EF still ticks much more often than SS does.

The best thing about EF now is that the tradeoff to using WoG (no ShoR) is actually nullified by the very first EF tick. Yeah, it'll be harder/slower to generate that Holy Power at low gear levels, but losing the ShoR doesn't impact you that much any more with EF because the next hit will be mitigated in a sense by the EF tick immediately after.

#18 Wrathblood

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:22 PM

Hmm, I don't think it was my napkin math on the forums, but SW doesn't keep up with HA during their respective active times. Not including GC procs (which would help HA more than SW anyway), SW generates ~1.3 HoPo/GCD, while HA produces ~1.6 HoPo/GCD. However, the +20% to healing received becomes punchier with EF than it was with SS, and you're guaranteed to have AW and its +20% to healing done during a period when you're almost assured of having a 5 BoG/3 HoPo EF rolling. How much of this actually ends up as productive healing rather than just overhealing is anyone's guess but its a significant boost to your throughput.

I've done a substantial amount of testing on Simcraft and I'm not honestly sure there's a wrong answer among the three anymore in terms of "general tanking usefulness". Over a pretty decent range of situations our level 75 talents sim out remarkably closely. SW results in slightly higher damage taken and the weakest ShoR up-time, but you also get the best EFs out of it and the most self-healing to make up for it. DP and HA are pretty similar in terms of average results, with HA having the most intense periods of "you can't kill me" while DP is steadier across the board. I would absolutely pick based on personal comfort and fit with fight mechanics and not because "HA rulez, SW droolz" as it used to be.

The biggest caveat is that with DP you're at risk of getting your face punched in on the pull so either have someone else pull or be sure to have a cooldown up. Also, presuming you go for t16 4p, once you get it DP pulls away from the others.

Edit - Good point on the snapshotting vs dynamic updating, I'll include that.

#19 Sparklefever

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:35 PM

Are those talent comparisons taking into account SW's 30s duration vs HA's 18s duration, though?

Also as far as I'm aware the 20% healing received won't snapshot EF or anything, it'll only be an increased heal over the duration. Certainly an upside to using SW though.

#20 Wrathblood

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:54 PM

Yeah, it includes the difference in duration. Its really clear watching the plot lines. SW gives a longer, shallower, and less frequent impact on damage taken variability while HA gives a shorter, sharper and more frequent result. DP is just a nice straight line all the way across, except for the first ~15 seconds where you get your teeth kicked in.

Edit - In terms of TMI SW and HA are right next to each other and while DP is noticeably worse, its entirely because of the first little bit after the pull. If you equalize for that they're all good choices.




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