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Prot [5.4] - EF You


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#21 Wrathblood

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 08:54 PM

There. Up-to-date and with a Cliff's Notes-style "how to not be bad at Paladin tanking in under 1000 words" introduction with details and digression to follow.

Edit - I've edited the bulk of the post as well and it should be up to date for 5.4 Please let me know if I've missed anything.

#22 Wrathblood

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 09:33 PM

Are those talent comparisons taking into account SW's 30s duration vs HA's 18s duration, though?

Also as far as I'm aware the 20% healing received won't snapshot EF or anything, it'll only be an increased heal over the duration. Certainly an upside to using SW though.


Oh, crap. I forgot about Vial. With Vial working on AW and not HA, I think HA generates more HoPo/second during its active time, but SW has enough more active time that it might actually pull ahead.

#23 Thels

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 09:53 PM

At lower haste levels, EF and SS are still the same comparison; EF still ticks much more often than SS does.

The best thing about EF now is that the tradeoff to using WoG (no ShoR) is actually nullified by the very first EF tick. Yeah, it'll be harder/slower to generate that Holy Power at low gear levels, but losing the ShoR doesn't impact you that much any more with EF because the next hit will be mitigated in a sense by the EF tick immediately after.


The thing is, with low haste levels, your BoG stacks will be quite low, so the amount of healing from EF becomes lower in comparison. With 0% haste, you only get 11.11 HoPo plus whatever procs you get. Subtract 3 for EF, and that means you'll only have 3 BoG stacks if you're lucky.



As for HA vs SW, let's just calculate how much extra HoPo they give per use at 0% haste. The HoPo will scale linearly with haste for both talents.

For HA, we have 18 seconds, so a rotation of 12 GCDs. On average, we'll press 4x CS and 2.66x J for a total of 13.33 extra HoPo, plus whatever extra HoPo we get from GC procs.

For SW we change the rotation, so it's a little harder to calculate. First let's see how much HoPo we would generate normally. 30 seconds is 20 GCDs, so we'd press 6.66x CS and 4.44x J for a total of 11.11 HoPo, plus whatever HoPo we get from GC procs.

With SW active, we'd press J every other GCD or 10 times for 20 HoPo. We'd press CS every 4th GCD or 5 times for 5 HoPo. We might get some extra HoPo from GC procs. SW gives us 25 HoPo plus GC procs. If we subtract the normal 11.11 HoPo plus GC procs, we've got an extra 13.89 HoPo from SW.

HA: 13.33 extra HoPo plus 2 extra HoPo for each GC proc we benefit from during HA.
SW: 13.89 extra HoPo. (If you want to be really sharp, you might consider that SW's rotation might waste one or two GC procs.)

They are actually pretty close on use, but with HA having a lower CD than SW, it wins out in the long run. SW of course has increased healing received, so that might make you favor it.

Above 20% Haste, SW allows for a 100% SotR uptime, so the SotR frequency of either talent shouldn't matter.

#24 Wrathblood

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 10:20 PM

I agree with Thels' math, the only thing to add is that GC procs under HA are worth 3 HoPo vs the usual 1 for SW (You probably will end up wasting some extra GC procs while under SW because of fewer filler GCDs, but the number should be pretty small). Net, its more than 2 more extra HoPo for HA per usage over and above what Thels posted.

#25 Thels

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 09:02 AM

I actually included that, did I not? :P

But yes, GC procs will put HA ahead, though the difference in HoPo generation still won't matter too much. Considering how long SotR will trail off, you might very well not be tanking anymore by the time it runs out.

Overall, I see little use for SW, unless you consider the extra healing received, but do you really need that extra healing received during 100% SotR coverage? SW might be more worthwhile in a heavy mobile fight, due to the availability of J.

HA vs DP will be "Having a cooldown at your disposal" vs "Maximum HoPo generation". I prefer HA for being such a strong cooldown when I really need it, though DP might help on keeping EF at high BoG stacks.

#26 Theck

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:46 PM

The other point against SW is that it limits your use of AW as a DPS cooldown. For example, if you need to hold a big cooldown for a particular section of the fight, you may end up delaying AW and getting fewer total casts of it in a given encounter. HA allows you to independently control both cooldowns, so that you may delay HA but still use AW on cooldown for maximum DPS.

Though I pretty much agree with Wrathblood's initial assessment: they're all fine choices, depending on the encounter. SW is a little less versatile, but arguably gives a much larger safety net while it's active because you pile the 20% healing received (and 44% larger EF ticks) on top of the 100% SotR uptime. HA is arguably the most versatile, DP is arguably the most fun (and potentially highest DPS based on 5.3 sims, but we'll see whether that continues to hold up in 5.4 once I get around to writing the automation code).

TMI does a pretty good job of filtering the differences out - HA and SW both make you essentially invincible during their respective uptimes (and a little longer for HA thanks to SotR duration buildup), so you get very little contribution to TMI during those periods. The fact that SW makes you invincible++ doesn't really help it any in a simple melee sim. However, if there's a boss that has a ~30-second enrage period where you're in real danger and taking huge melees, that extra level of security may pay off.

I ran Divine Purpose for last week's clear, but I'll probably try Sanctified Wrath this week just to fool around with it and see how it plays, especially now that I have Vial.

#27 Sparklefever

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 03:36 PM

Yeah - jokes on actually trying SW! I switched back to Holy Avenger really fast as the old SW rotation was something that threw me off really badly (and the new one is no different, I'm just kinda dumb with it I guess).

My "issue" with HA this tier is that a lot of the fights this tier appear to have timers between "burn" phases that are just slightly longer than 2 minutes. For example, Nazgrim's Berserker Stance has 3 minutes until it fully "rotates" back if I'm not mistaken. On the upside, HA works really well for Siegecrafter's add!

I'm still not sure whether I'm going for 4pc Prot or not; has anyone done the math on how much haste the 4pc is worth, if you're running EF? I'd be able to softcap haste if I didn't go for the 4pc, but that would be pretty irrelevant if the 4pc was worth like 3k haste or something.

#28 Stardance

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 08:57 PM

Oh, crap. I forgot about Vial. With Vial working on AW and not HA, I think HA generates more HoPo/second during its active time, but SW has enough more active time that it might actually pull ahead.


Oh, crap. I've never heard of "Vial". Well, at least I have not forgotten about it. :-)

By the way, what does the acronym "TMI" stand for?

#29 TerellinMisha

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:18 PM

Theck-Meloree Index. Tank smoothness index for damage taken and healing taken developed by Theck and Meloree. Can find a whole mess of posts with mind boggling math on Sacred Duty, Theck's blog.

#30 Wrathblood

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:18 PM

Change in Glyph valuation. I finally worked out the value of the WoG glyph and its pretty good.

At a ~550 gear level, WoG is our #2 damage glyph after Focused Shield single target.

Single target
Focused Shield > WoG > Alabaster Shield => Final Wrath

AoE
WoG > Alabaster Shield > Final Wrath

Focused Shield becomes a net loss in AoE (or even Cleave) situations so don't use it then.

Single target Focused Shield is king, with WoG modestly behind it, Alabaster Shield modestly behind WoG and Final Wrath just barely behind Alabaster Shield.

If you're going to be tanking multiple targets regularly during a fight Focused Shield becomes a dps loss (at around 1.3 targets over the fight) and WoG passes it very quickly. Alabaster Shield continues improving as the number of enemies tanked increases (holding damage constant) and there's probably a point at which Alabaster Shield passes WoG but its going to be a fairly high number. Final Wrath remains #3. It does get better with more targets but only very, very slightly so at least its better than Focused Shield but its well behind WoG and Alabaster Shield.

Obviously if there are unusual fight mechanics that can skew values. If a fight has an abbreviated <20% phase (like Lich King) then Final Wrath becomes worse. If the tank faces significantly increased or reduced melee swings then Alabaster Shield is impacted, etc.

#31 Veyloris

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 02:20 AM

Hotfixes came out today:

Eternal Flame's heal-over-time effect is increased by 50% when used on the Paladin (down from 100%).


I can't help but assert that this is most definitely warranted. On Garrosh10m, I was #2 on healing, and very close to being #1. Maybe it's more situational in use than Sacred Shield, but on high tank damage fights where the throughput can shine, the numbers I've been seeing are absurdly high. On top of that, I've been seeing some use with Holy Avenger+EF to help raid heal, given I've seen crits of 200k-300k on the initial tick of it, though that's truthfully not affected by the nerf.

With all that said however, are we back to SS? Given how close they were already, I would think that SS would be right back on top as the permanent talent. To me, EF seems to have it's use on some high tank damage fights, but given SSs tendency to not waste its use, perhaps I could be wrong.

#32 Wrathblood

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 02:48 AM

My gut feeling is that its going to be situational and they're pretty close now, with EF being the choice for throughput and SS the choice for burst. HA + WoG/EF can be pretty decent for raid healing but people have been doing that for a while on fights where you don't need the cooldown for yourself, though EF would make it more effective.

While 4piece should push EF back into the lead, its not yet entirely clear that our 4 piece is worth pursuing. Yes, our tier is mostly better itemized than its been in the past, but we also have some superb off-tier pieces available (which can also come in WF). Gonna take another day or so for the math.

#33 Wrathblood

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 02:42 PM

Was going to post that, after pondering it overnight, I think that I'm sticking to my guns and staying with EF. While the 25% nerf to EF is significant, EF is *still* 40% stronger than SS relative to how they stacked up in 5.3.

Additionally, the proportions are still strongly in favor of EF. Sure, absorbs are better than heals, but even post nerf EF has more than twice the throughput of SS. Unless you're in danger of getting 2-shot, EF simply overwhelms SS even after the nerf.

I felt pretty bold making this pronouncement seeing as how Theck last night tweeted that it was possible SS would take the lead post nerf. But in his blog this morning it turns out that was due to an errant line in his sim and once he fixed it EF was still solidly ahead. Theck's blog post is here:

Sacred Duty | A Protection Paladin Blog

#34 Wrathblood

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 03:17 AM

Ballpark, our 4p is worth ~2.2 ShoR's per minute which is about 12% ShoR uptime (plus some bonus SoI ticks). Matching the benefit through stats takes about 4k Haste and 4k Mastery at 10N declining a bit as the difficulty ramps up. Since our tier is better than it used to be and our off-tier pieces at Head and Chest (where I assume our 3rd and 4th pieces would come from) are pretty crappily itemized, its a very small sacrifice in terms of stats to get there.

So, in a nutshell, assuming you're using EF our 4P is actually rather good and worth pursuing.

#35 Balhale

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 04:45 AM

Actually, there are haste/mastery offpieces for every tier slot except gloves, but we would use our gloves anyway. I wouldn't call that pretty crappily itemized.

(Helm from Galakras, Shoulders from Protectors, Chest from ret tier, Legs from Garrosh. At normal ilvl there is a trash drop of haste/mastery Gloves too, but obviously there's no heroic version of that. I suppose admittedly the ret tier Chest can't be WF, but you could still wear our chest/gloves and have 3 HWF haste/mastery pieces in your other slots at full BiS.)

#36 Wrathblood

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 12:09 PM

Sure, there's a piece at gloves, too. Corruption-Rotted off Immerseus.

I didn't include the ret chest piece because: 1) pedantically, they wouldn't be off-tier, and 2) as you note they can't be WF and part of what I was trying to figure out was whether you can afford to give up WF pieces and still come out ahead. Turns out you can. But I had to use Icy Blood as my Chest placeholder to look at that.

Also, I assumed people would use Gloves/Shoulders to get our 2p (if for no other reason than you're putting fewer itemization points into less optimally itemized gear).

#37 Wrathblood

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 04:36 PM

For 25 normal, trading haste/mastery 553 pieces at hand/shoulder/chest/head for 540 tier pieces is a win even before including our 2p.

#38 TerellinMisha

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 06:41 PM

I don't see there being any place where you wouldn't use the 4p, barring 10 man normal where you substantially outgear the content. Even then, the 2p allowing DP to be used proactively (more so with UBS), in conjunction with EF losing its opportunity cost, makes the 4 set absurdly good. Given that vial is a lock to be in one of our trinket slots (once obtained), the 2 piece becomes even better because of the synergy there. 25 second CD on DP means 40% uptime if used proactively (especially on a fight like Norushen or last phase Galakras, with almost constant magic damage going out).

#39 Incalcando

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 09:25 PM

On the EF vs SS debate. I so far I tanked 10/14HC post EF-nerf and noticed nothing in my survivability changing. Also, on Thok heroic SS is really the superior choice, especially if you solo tank it. I was getting absorbs of 400, and the boss was meleeing me for around 900k + the 500k screetch damage. It's brutal and you get oneshot with EF. However, for every other fight just stick with EF.

#40 Wrathblood

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:39 PM

I don't see there being any place where you wouldn't use the 4p, barring 10 man normal where you substantially outgear the content. Even then, the 2p allowing DP to be used proactively (more so with UBS), in conjunction with EF losing its opportunity cost, makes the 4 set absurdly good. Given that vial is a lock to be in one of our trinket slots (once obtained), the 2 piece becomes even better because of the synergy there. 25 second CD on DP means 40% uptime if used proactively (especially on a fight like Norushen or last phase Galakras, with almost constant magic damage going out).


In fact I'd say running with 4p is also a good choice on 10N because it provides a ~5% DPS boost from the extra SHoRs and even going full dps Haste/Crit/STR I think you'll have a hard time making up that gap from just the 4 tier pieces. My advice is to take the dps AND the survival benefit on 10N and laugh all the way home.

The reason I tossed out 25N was because our 4P does appear to get slightly weaker relative to a big chunk o' stats as the difficulty ramps up. I was pretty sure my comments would still be valid for 25H but I hadn't actually done it yet and I didn't want to get ahead of myself. Anyway, I've now gone through it and can confirm that it still holds true for 25H (the gap does shrink but it doesn't entirely go away).




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