Jump to content


Photo

Unholy DPS 5.4 - The Fun has been Doubled!


  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#1 Mendenbarr

Mendenbarr

    Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon.

  • • Guide Author
  • 180 posts

Posted 08 September 2013 - 04:28 PM

Find the guide at http://forums.elitis...een-doubled-r75


Edited by Mendenbarr, 09 June 2014 - 01:07 PM.

<Midwinter> - 14/14 HM -25m - LF exceptional raiders
http://www.mwguild.net/
DK Theorycrafting/Game Dev Blog
DK Gear/log reviews/audits


#2 slayerpal

slayerpal

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 10 September 2013 - 02:25 AM

Unfortunately, festerblight is no longer viable as of 5.4.
why?
I mean we can still keep high diseases ,we can still use the feather to get a high strength and keep it until the next time the highest strength appears again.(in Asia we have 557lv)。we can use it until we get heroic trickets,which can also offer us more than 20000strength when they get together.

#3 Mendenbarr

Mendenbarr

    Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon.

  • • Guide Author
  • 180 posts

Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:39 PM

Unfortunately, festerblight is no longer viable as of 5.4.
why?
I mean we can still keep high diseases ,we can still use the feather to get a high strength and keep it until the next time the highest strength appears again.(in Asia we have 557lv)。we can use it until we get heroic trickets,which can also offer us more than 20000strength when they get together.


The reason festerblight was viable in 5.2/5.3 was feather. We went from a combined total of 8k str in T14 gear to about 30k, from feather/shadopan or feather/rage. That's an increase of 275% more strength than the prior tier. At the same time, ilevel went from 517 to 549 (for US, same rules apply for Asia, just 8 ilevels higher), which was 32 more ilevels. 32 ilevels increase stats by a ballpark of about 30%, so you would expect 8k to become about 11k, but we got 30k instead.
Right off the bat, for 5.4, feather has been nerfed 20%. It now provides 16k str instead of 19k str for the 549 version. On top of that, the two new trinkets, at 580 ilevel, have a combined str of about 30k, and it would need to be about 30% higher (because of the ilevel jump) to break even with festerblight's gain now. We would need about 40k str from trinkets alone to get festerblight up to the same, small gain it is now. It had already fallen from it's peak in 5.2 with the tricks nerf for 5.3

This logic is confirmed by sims, if you take the simC profile linked in the festerblight section of the unholy guide, and run it against traditional unholy now, you'll see that it is a single target loss.
And that doesn't even count the fact that near every fight this tier is full of target swaps and cleave and AE, all of which is unfriendly to festerblight. On top of that, the we can't benefit from the PL buff with festerblight.

That's not to say festerblight is NEVER viable. It's possible that if damage only matters in a certain phase, (think lei shen p3), that it's worth sacrificing some of your single target damage in order to get that higher burst at the end. It's also within reason that there is a fight with a large damage buff at the start that doesn't come back up. I'm not aware of any such circumstances yet, but if any show up, I will update the guide.

Keeping up high diseases, and then refreshing them when new trinkets proc, is still viable, and optimal, and it's called disease gaming. Festerblight is all about keeping one set of diseases rolling the entire fight, and that is not viable.

<Midwinter> - 14/14 HM -25m - LF exceptional raiders
http://www.mwguild.net/
DK Theorycrafting/Game Dev Blog
DK Gear/log reviews/audits


#4 Defecator

Defecator
  • Members
  • 0 posts

Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:45 PM

I was under the impression that Semmi's BiS list was better than the 4pc?

#5 Ultimá

Ultimá

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:16 PM

This new tier may not have the raw strength gain trinkets in comparison to the strength from gear but after doing some theory crafting I suspect that a combo of evil eye of galakras and Skeer's bloodsoaked Talisman will be very strong with the festerblight playstyle. The reason is because in an opener with both trinkets proccing with fallen crusader, strength pot, and snypase strings you will end up with snapshotted DoTs that are about 80k str and because of Skeer's Talisman(20 stacks of 1511 crit=30220 crit/600crit per%crit= 50.37% added crit) around 85% crit too. So even though our Dots may not be as strong in comparison to strength on gear they will be critting pretty much constantly which will more then make up for the less comparative strength.

#6 roarfacelol

roarfacelol

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:35 AM

The issue with the festerblight playstyle this patch is that you will rarely get the chance to even use it because the majority of the fights consist of hard AoE and low uptime on the boss. For example, you won't even have the uptime to even deal a full duration on dots on Immerseus and barely worth it on paragon. For Norushen, you should be switching to adds unless you're specifically told to just sit on the boss. For AoE/cleave fights such as shamans, spoils, and protectors, you're going to be BB alot which overwrite your dots. You're better off just reapplying the dots whenever you have procs for it.

#7 Ultimá

Ultimá

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:56 PM

First off my BB wont reapply my dots since I dont use RB as a tier 1 talent(I use unholy blight).I have killed 12 bosses so far in Soo and I am been able to keep dots up on 8 of the fights. In fights like protectors,spoils, and paragons obviously I am not going be able to do this but I am still going to open up with max dots on all available to targets and then pestilence whenever my dot cleave wears off or I get more trinket/fallen crusader procs. When mendebarr said that festerblight was not viable it because when you use festering strike over scourge strikes you lose dps and that with the new strength proc trinkets this loss was not worth the gain(of keeping up these Dots with festering strike). What I am trying to say is instead of using 2 strength trinkets to festerblight one could potentially use bloody talisman and another strength trinket to keep up Dots that are a little weaker(then using double str proc trinkets) but are constantly critting.

#8 rocco1015

rocco1015

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:05 PM

First off my BB wont reapply my dots since i dont use RB as a tier 1 talent(i use unholy blight).I have killed 12 bosses so far in Soo and i am been able to keep dots up on 8 of the fights. in fights like protectors,spoils, and paragons obviously im not going be able to do this but i am still going to open up with max dots on all available to targets and then pestilence whenever my dot cleave wears off or i get more trinket/fallen crusader procs. When mendebarr said that festerblight was not viable it because when you use festering strike over scourge strikes you lose dps and that with the new strength proc trinkets this loss was not worth the gain(of keeping up these Dots with festering strike). What i am trying to say is instead of using 2 strength trinkets to festerblight one could potentially use bloody talisman and another strength trinket to keep up Dots that are a little weaker(then using double str proc trinkets) but are constantly critting.

The crit chance of diseases updates dynamically. It does not snapshot.

#9 Ultimá

Ultimá

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:02 AM

Really I have looked across the web for information about this all can find is that when a caster casts a Dot with UVLS the 100% crit thing is snappshotted. I cant find anything that says dks dots update dynamically(like pets and such do)

#10 Zendria

Zendria

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:46 PM

Really I have looked across the web for information about this all can find is that when a caster casts a Dot with UVLS the 100% crit thing is snappshotted. I cant find anything that says dks dots update dynamically(like pets and such do)



Both DK Dots do snapshot, thats why and how Festerblight works(ed).
As far as i know does the 100% crit Trinket from Lei Shen only procc for caster classes, not for DKs.

#11 Defecator

Defecator
  • Members
  • 0 posts

Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:01 PM

Both DK Dots do snapshot, thats why and how Festerblight works(ed).
As far as i know does the 100% crit Trinket from Lei Shen only procc for caster classes, not for DKs.


Yeah he was just using UVLS and Warlocks as an exmaple.

#12 Mendenbarr

Mendenbarr

    Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon.

  • • Guide Author
  • 180 posts

Posted 17 September 2013 - 10:04 PM

Skeer's does snapshot, but the problem remains that it's simply not strong enough. It caps out at 30k crit rating(about 46%), and while both strong and short duration, it has a few problems.

1. Due the rppm changes, it doesn't reliably proc at the start of the fight. It procs some of the time, but not all of the time, and doesn't always line up with a second trinket, unlike the trinkets of T15.

2. The maximum strength buff lasts only 0.5 seconds. You thought timing feather was hard? A 0.5 second interval is nearly impossible to hit on the nail, when you take into account the ability que and lag, as well as human response time. Most of the time you would not get the full benefit out of the trinket.

3. Crit is not a valuable stat as strength is. Strength is simply better, point for point. Sure, there is amazing amount of crit here, but it only barely overtakes the value of the strength trinkets that are up for a whole lot longer.

Despite all of this, after spending several hours trying to maximize things out, this as close as I could get.

Posted Image


Using these profiles

Spoiler


I'm giving up on festerblight for now, but if anyone can show a particular setup in simC that can beat traditional unholy, I'm willing to revisit it.

<Midwinter> - 14/14 HM -25m - LF exceptional raiders
http://www.mwguild.net/
DK Theorycrafting/Game Dev Blog
DK Gear/log reviews/audits


#13 Adenhart

Adenhart

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:10 PM

Is there any point of mastery value that would cause Death Siphon to overtake SS in the rotation for an Undead DK (whos racial benefits from Mastery). Perhaps with Razor Ice or Cinderglacier? Maybe dual wield with one of those Runes offhand since Death Siphon scales off AP not weapon damage?

#14 Mendenbarr

Mendenbarr

    Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon.

  • • Guide Author
  • 180 posts

Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:53 PM

Is there any point of mastery value that would cause Death Siphon to overtake SS in the rotation for an Undead DK (whos racial benefits from Mastery). Perhaps with Razor Ice or Cinderglacier? Maybe dual wield with one of those Runes offhand since Death Siphon scales off AP not weapon damage?


Scarily enough, yes, there is.

My first round of results take Dsip and completely replace SS/FeS with death runes in the priority. This was a 2% dps loss, and grants the boon of ~45k HPS in BiS gear.

Then swapped to DW weapons, with RI/FC. Only an ~8% dps loss. Going to work on further optimizing this, but it's already potentially a problem.

Numbers aside, "DW unholy" would offer a great deal more self-healing than 2H unholy does. It's also far less reliant on weapons, and I'm already seeing it as a gain in with certain weapons below your average ilevel. It's within the realm of possibility that, for certain setups, DW unholy would be not only viable, but optimal. Last time that happened it got nerfed into the ground, fast. Still, there is theorycrafting to be done!

Here are the profiles I used, feel free to experiment with them as you will. I'll be looking into this further myself, but I'm interested in having a discussion about it here.

Dsip 2H:
Spoiler


Dsip DW:
Spoiler

<Midwinter> - 14/14 HM -25m - LF exceptional raiders
http://www.mwguild.net/
DK Theorycrafting/Game Dev Blog
DK Gear/log reviews/audits


#15 Adenhart

Adenhart

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 01 October 2013 - 07:55 PM

Scarily enough, yes, there is.

My first round of results take Dsip and completely replace SS/FeS with death runes in the priority. This was a 2% dps loss, and grants the boon of ~45k HPS in BiS gear.

Then swapped to DW weapons, with RI/FC. Only an ~8% dps loss. Going to work on further optimizing this, but it's already potentially a problem.

Numbers aside, "DW unholy" would offer a great deal more self-healing than 2H unholy does. It's also far less reliant on weapons, and I'm already seeing it as a gain in with certain weapons below your average ilevel. It's within the realm of possibility that, for certain setups, DW unholy would be not only viable, but optimal. Last time that happened it got nerfed into the ground, fast. Still, there is theorycrafting to be done!

Here are the profiles I used, feel free to experiment with them as you will. I'll be looking into this further myself, but I'm interested in having a discussion about it here.

Dsip 2H:

Spoiler


Dsip DW:
Spoiler


Thank you for taking the time to explore this theory... I have a little baby at home and can't put in the time I once did.

It looks like this data is for Orc DK right? Wouldn't an Undead DK see even more benefit since their Racial scales with the Unholy mastery?

#16 xtrl90

xtrl90

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 02 October 2013 - 04:16 PM

I am undead so I used my frost DW gearset with the profile Mend posted, after changing the race of course.
Being DW frost I have mastery gems and reforges everywhere, this is basically a "what if I swap specs and leave the gear" sim.
153937 dps

http://4.chart.apis....3333&chtt=Scale Factors%7CDeath_Knight_Unholy_My_Poop_Gear Damage Per Second&chts=dddddd,18&chs=550x180&chd=t1:5.09,2.40,2.20,1.80%7C4.97,2.28,2.08,1.69%7C5.21,2.52,2.31,1.92&chco=C41F3B&chm=E,FF0000,1:0,,1:20%7Ct++++5.09++Str,C41F3B,0,0,15,0.1,e%7Ct++++2.40++Crit,C41F3B,0,1,15,0.1,e%7Ct++++2.20++Mastery,C41F3B,0,2,15,0.1,e%7Ct++++1.80++Haste,C41F3B,0,3,15,0.1,e&chds=-0.010,6.121&



This is after reforging and gemming all the mastery to crit. It's entirely possible this is wrong as I only did it in simcraft and produced 3 errors while changing the text, one of which was something along the lines of "No item in Main_Hand slot"
154707 dps

http://2.chart.apis....3333&chtt=Scale Factors%7CDeath_Knight_Unholy_My_Poop_Gear Damage Per Second&chts=dddddd,18&chs=550x180&chd=t1:5.15,2.34,2.32,1.82%7C5.02,2.22,2.20,1.70%7C5.27,2.46,2.44,1.94&chco=C41F3B&chm=E,FF0000,1:0,,1:20%7Ct++++5.15++Str,C41F3B,0,0,15,0.1,e%7Ct++++2.34++Crit,C41F3B,0,1,15,0.1,e%7Ct++++2.32++Mastery,C41F3B,0,2,15,0.1,e%7Ct++++1.82++Haste,C41F3B,0,3,15,0.1,e&chds=-0.010,6.185&

My ilvl is only 535 in my dps gear, so it looks like I am at the threshold where mastery starts to become more valuable than crit at 20.41% raid buffed; though barely on the mastery side for me.

#17 CountCardboard

CountCardboard

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 14 December 2013 - 12:33 PM

bis-table with bosses. did this for myself to have a quick overview where to go with my DK. maybe useful for some of you guys, too.

 


    
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
Slot    Item    Boss    Wing (Siege of Orgrimmar)
HeadHelmet of Cyclopean DreadThok the BloodthirstyThe Underhold
NeckMalkorok's Tainted Dog TagsMalkorokThe Underhold
ShouldersTusks of MannorothGarrosh HellscreamDownfall
BackGong-Lu, Strength of XuenCloak of VirtueLegendary Questline
ChestBreastplate of Shamanic MirrorsEarthbreaker HarommGates of Retribution
WristsBracers of Blind HatredNorushenVale of Eternal Sorrows
HandsGauntlets of Cyclopean DreadGeneral NazgrimGates of Retribution
WaistAshen Wall GirdleEarthbreaker HarommGates of Retribution
LegsLegplates of Willful DoomMalkorokThe Underhold
FeetGreaves of Sublime SuperioritySha of PrideVale of Eternal Sorrows
Ring 1Devilfang BandThok the BloodthirstyThe Underhold
Ring 2Seal of the Forgotten KingsSpoils of PandariaThe Underhold
Trinket 1Evil Eye of GalakrasGalakrasGates of Retribution
Trinket 2Thok's Tail TipXXXThok the Bloodthirsty
Main HandXal'atoh, Desecrated Image of GorehowlGarrosh HellscreamDownfall

 



#18 Rankochan

Rankochan

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:06 AM

One thing that's wrong in this guide is the fact that the CD reduction trinket off of Galakras affects ERW, it in fact does not affect ERW and you don't have it affecting UF, which is affected by it.

Also in regards to the BiS list above, you don't have the tier 16 4-set taken into account, which can boost our dps quite a bit, even though you might think stuff with a higher ilevel is better it's not when you take that into account.


Edited by Rankochan, 30 December 2013 - 05:09 AM.


#19 Babysealkllr

Babysealkllr

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 04 January 2014 - 07:28 AM

I'm having an issue with DPS. I've switched from a Haste build to a Crit build and back to Haste.

As a crit build, for me it seemed like at 4-5k haste gameplay was pretty slow, I didn't see much of an improvement in DPS. I used the priority rotation and it didn't feel comfortable always waiting for runes to come up. Is this typical for a crit build to run this slow? I know I can choose RC to get procs but even still it's slower. I went back to a haste build with at least 10.5-11k haste and I feel more comfortable with with more runes. I don't feel like I'm pulling as much DPS as I possibly can, am I doing it wrong? Should I just learn to deal with the slower gameplay?



#20 Magdalena

Magdalena

    Heroic Class of Heroism

  • • Guide Author
  • 92 posts

Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:34 AM

I'm having an issue with DPS. I've switched from a Haste build to a Crit build and back to Haste.

As a crit build, for me it seemed like at 4-5k haste gameplay was pretty slow, I didn't see much of an improvement in DPS. I used the priority rotation and it didn't feel comfortable always waiting for runes to come up. Is this typical for a crit build to run this slow? I know I can choose RC to get procs but even still it's slower. I went back to a haste build with at least 10.5-11k haste and I feel more comfortable with with more runes. I don't feel like I'm pulling as much DPS as I possibly can, am I doing it wrong? Should I just learn to deal with the slower gameplay?

 

Your talent choices and gear will significantly affect the amount of downtime you experience. Plague Leech, for instance, will devalue Haste significantly as it fills up 2 globals ever 25 seconds. Trinkets such as Evil Eye of Galakras, and glyphs such as Regenerative Magic will all greatly reduce the cooldown of AMS  (the glyph is situational), thus allowing you to soak RP much more often. 

Looking at your armoury, I note that you seem to be using Unholy Blight- this is a perfectly valid choice, but won't lead to Haste being devalued nearly as much as it would with Plague Leech. You also seem to be using Runic Empowerment, which I would strongly discourage you from doing- if you don't like Runic Corruption, then use Blood Tap. Runic Empowerment is an incorrect choice for Unholy DKs, given that individual Frost/Blood Runes being restored serve no purpose in our single target rotation (the latter being useless for AoE as well). Incidentally, Blood Tap will also allow you to AMS soak more efficiently, allowing you to maximise rune gains from the RP you generate.

 

I would also strongly suggest changing your gemming- with Thok's Tail Tip, secondary stat weights improve dramatically and make gemming secondary stats worth it over Strength. You should see a definite DPS gain if you do so.

Make all these changes and then test out how you feel in a raid environment.


Death Knight Blog

Personal Blog

 

<Magdalena> There's really no way to say "There's a two hour long video of me on the Internet", without it sounding dirty is there?

<Mionepony> Especially not if it's you...





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users