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5.4 Subtlety Reborn


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#1 Druss

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 04:35 PM

It seems to me, and Shadowcraft appears to support this, that with the recent changes to our specs (notably certain abilities causing SV to increase damage 35%) Sub is back. Praise be!

Please post your observations here and/or please can the forum admin people set up a Sub related thread.

Questions/thoughts from me:

(1) Is Garrote a better opener than Ambush because it immediately triggers the SV effect (and FW)?
(2) Does SV at 35% work with (glyphed) Hemo as well as Garrote, Rupture and CT? Or is it stuck at 25%?
(3) Does the Evis nerf make Envenom viable for Sub or does Evis remain the finisher of choice when SnD/Rupture require no renewal?
(4) Optimal glyphs?

#2 YzeroXY

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 07:41 PM

My two cents, not necessarily correct:

1. Since we'll use the new Hemorrhage glyph, and more likely than not follow the opener with Hemorrhage itself, the difference should be minimal.
2. Requires testing, but there is absolutely no reason why it should not, it's the same spell id.
3. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Envenom Assassination only now?
4. Rogues currently have quite a few options when it comes to glyphs, and we can swap on a per-fight basis. Strong contenders are Smoke Bomb, Hemorrhage and Redirect. If you don't need a raid wall, you can replace Smoke Bomb, and if you won't swap targets, you can replace Redirect. Other notable glyphs are Sprint, Cloak of Shadows and Feint.

What I'd like to know is if Rune of Re-origination is really as good as Shadowcraft makes it out to be. I managed to squeeze out 432k dps in BiS setup, and RoR was 2nd best trinket after AoC. What made it weird for me was suggestion of haste build in a 1:1:1 reforging situation. Always thought that mastery would be the preferred proc due to SnD.

#3 Layke

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 07:56 PM

Shadowcraft states that it doesn't really know how to account for Rune, and that it is not really good. Take that for what it is.

My question is that I'm curious if the DPS that Shadowcraft states for Sub is accurate. If so, Sub is close to 16k DPS more than Assassination was before the hotfix, atleast for me. Also, the issue is that it'll be really hard to test, as the DPS from sub is reflected due to HAT, which can only be tested in a raid. I suppose LFR will do, but that's hardly a good source of information.

Either way, if single-target Sub really is that high, I'm pretty excited. I've wanted to play Sub all of MoP, and this is the first time I've seen it top in sims. Should be interesting.

#4 cacherow

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:11 PM

I have a question. Now with this glyph of hemo, is it better to drop rupture from the rotation and use only eviscerate instead? maintaining the sanguinary veins buff with hemo?

#5 Stylinonem

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:17 PM

I have a question. Now with this glyph of hemo, is it better to drop rupture from the rotation and use only eviscerate instead? maintaining the sanguinary veins buff with hemo?


I could be wrong about this, but I'm fairly certain that Rupture still has a much higher DPET than Eviscerate and should, therefore, be kept up on your target.

#6 cacherow

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:19 PM

It's because i went on the fourth boss of SoO LFR and my rupture damage was like on 6th place, eviscerate was 4th place i remember or something like that, so i wondered.

#7 Pathal

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:22 PM

Getting logs to analyze for Sub is actually very hard. It's the least played PvE spec in the game by a large margin, and finding highly skilled players who are willing to share their logs makes it even harder. Then, the addition of the Hemo glyph and the fact that AoC and 4pc change a fair bit of the mechanics means it's one big uphill battle.

If any of the 310k+ players with AoC and/or 4pc would share a log I'd love it. However, let us be reasonable. Between the patch still being fresh, and the reticence of high end guilds (especially mid progression) it's unlikely to occur.

Rumors suggest it really is high. But without logs, I can only think that the math is right unless someone can suggest otherwise. It's also plausible that a FW Eviscerate out damages a Rupture due to hemo glyph, but someone would have to sit down and consider all the factors to see if it's worth dropping Rupture. It's not a pure DPET comparison.

#8 phup

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:27 PM

It's because i went on the fourth boss of SoO LFR and my rupture damage was like on 6th place, eviscerate was 4th place i remember or something like that, so i wondered.


that's because you do more total eviscerates than ruptures. but per application, rupture is significantly stronger. it's just not quite as big a nono anymore to let it drop for a second if you have the new hemo glyph and a hemo bleed running.

My question is how big a loss is shadow focus from subterfuge. I dislike subterfuge and the unpredictability of what abilities I'll have enough energy to use before it fades (at least it feels unpredictable to me. maybe i'll get used to it)

#9 cacherow

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:36 PM

I understrand, considering the damage it does and that it refunds all the energy making it cost 0.

#10 bural

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:37 AM

Marked for Death looks to be consistently ahead of Anticipation by some 2-3k across all gear levels in Shadowcraft. As I see it, MfD is one extra Eviscerate per minute on a Patchwerk type fight, whereas Anticipation is a delayed but considerably buffed Eviscerate during Find Weakness plus whatever combo points you'd loose from HAT procs at 4 or 5cp. Is it reasonable to assume MfD is ahead of Anticipation because the engine doesn't pool combo points to perform an extra Eviscerate during Find Weakness?
Also, is it possible to mimic the "Use Rupture" in Combat rotation settings in the Subtlety rotation settings via one of the advanced parameter in some way and if so how?

#11 Layke

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 03:18 PM

I'm curious about a few things though if anyone can answer them. First, I've read conflicting sources about when to use Shadow Blades. Some say don't use it when FW is up, which means don't use it with Shadow Dance. ShadowCraft on the otherhand says it's a HUGE DPS loss not to use ShD and SB together. Any clarification?

Next, how big of an increase is maintaining Hemo near 100%? If I have Hemo running, is it worth it to maintain Rupture?

Finally, what's the best way to make use of ShD? I'm trying to see what I can do to maximize FW, as my damage starts off REALLY strong and lasts throughout nearly half of an 8 minute fight. After that, it seems to taper off at some point.

Anywho, thanks for taking the time to read all of this. Hopefully I can get some answers!

#12 Rontu

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:24 PM

If heroic AoC drops tonight, i will run sub for the rest of the raid week (with the exception of galakras) and share the logs.

#13 Ech1zen

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:12 PM

I've tryed sub on many bosses that are favorable to it like Juggernaut and i must say i didnt have any advantage over assa. The other week in much weaker gear i was able to do 290k on it in heroic. And today only 282. I have AoC (n) and 2 piece. The only thing i lack is dagger, I use 549 one.
I didnt play much as sub so It could be my fault of not being able to do it's max but since ShC says I could have around 340k dps and I'm having 282 something is definatly wrong either with ShC calcs or with my rotation.
Here is my log.Dashboard - 26-09 01:45 - Синтария - World of Logs

#14 cacherow

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:58 PM

these guys are going sub:
Dryaan @ Kazzak - Community - World of Warcraft
Awynia @ Lightning's Blade - Comunidade - World of Warcraft

#15 Kazkek

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 01:22 AM

I've tryed sub on many bosses that are favorable to it like Juggernaut and i must say i didnt have any advantage over assa. The other week in much weaker gear i was able to do 290k on it in heroic. And today only 282. I have AoC (n) and 2 piece. The only thing i lack is dagger, I use 549 one.
I didnt play much as sub so It could be my fault of not being able to do it's max but since ShC says I could have around 340k dps and I'm having 282 something is definatly wrong either with ShC calcs or with my rotation.
Here is my log.Dashboard - 26-09 01:45 - Синтария - World of Logs


So I am unsure if I am misreading your log, since its in another language, but it looks like you only cast rupture once. That may be an issue there.

#16 Ech1zen

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 03:15 PM

Yeah, I did cast it only once. Somewhere in EJ there was statement that "it's not confirmed that rupture is a dps gain". And personally even if it is I doubt it's worth 60k dps.

#17 phup

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:39 PM

Your one rupture did 40% more damage than your average eviscerate and cost less energy. Rupture is a dps gain... confirmed.

Also at first glance, there are a few significant gaps in your Sanguinary Veins buff up-time where Hemo dropped and they all occur while you had Find Weakness up which cost you. There are also some noticeable gaps in your slice and dice coverage and it doesn't look like you used prep to get extra vanish.

Will fixing those give you the 20% you seem to be missing from the Shadowcraft estimate based on perfect play? Probably not, but there's definitely still room for significant improvement. And Shadowcraft's dps estimate is not really that useful as a true measure of exactly how much you should do. It's more the deltas you get when you change things that are useful.

#18 Palanuial

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 06:07 PM

I'm curious about a few things though if anyone can answer them. First, I've read conflicting sources about when to use Shadow Blades. Some say don't use it when FW is up, which means don't use it with Shadow Dance. ShadowCraft on the otherhand says it's a HUGE DPS loss not to use ShD and SB together. Any clarification?


SC gives the opposite if you choose hemo over backstab as your cp-builder.

The damage breakdown looks decidedly odd:

Hemo:

'None of the above':

Autoattack
63222.3
Eviscerate
50476.4
Hemorrhage
40312.3
Shadow Blades
9250.4

SB with SD:

Autoattack
60704.1
Eviscerate
50767.7
Hemorrhage
37422.7
Shadow Blades
9250.2


Backstab /w hemo:

'None of the above':

Autoattack
63212.6
Eviscerate
50697.3
Backstab
46528.5
Shadow Blades
9249.0


SB with SD:

Autoattack
60697.1
Eviscerate
55034.9
Backstab
52512.1
Shadow Blades
9249.2

#19 Layke

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 06:08 PM

Here is my log from last nights Malkorok as sub. Last week I did 325k as Mut, obviously before the nerf.

Details for Layke - 25-09 21:08 - Celestial Rebirth heals - World of Logs

What I can't figure out is if Sub is actually better for Single-Target than Mut is. I did better on all my fights by a fair amount this week as Sub, but I also have more gear now than I did when I did the fights as Mut.

I'm not sure if it's a learning curve (as this is my first time playing Sub since Cata) or if Sub simply does not out-perform Mut in action. Thoughts?

#20 Kisla

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 10:13 PM

Here is Malk and Thok as Sub, went Assa for Spoils, can probably do better but getting used to Sub slowly

Damage Done - 26-09 20:08 - Not So Serious - World of Logs




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