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Sneaking into 5.4 Raiding - Subtlety DPS Guide (with Pun!)


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#1 Jurugar

Jurugar

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:03 AM

Normally I'd continue to just lurk on the forums, but since the spec is (relatively) young as far as this expansion goes, I thought I'd toss my HaT (get it?) into the ring and try to put all the correct information in one place, as well as some of my own insight.

Gear
[table] Slot Item
Helm: Kor'Kron Elite Skullmask
Neck: Gleaming Eye of the Devilsaur
Shoulders: Spaulders of the Barbed Assassin

Cloak: Fen-Yu, Fury of Xuen
Chest: Tunic of the Barbed Assassin
Bracers: Bomber's Blackened Wristwatch
Gloves: Gloves of the Barbed Assassin
Belt: Cord of Black Dreams
Legs: Legguards of the Barbed Assassin
Feet: Pandaren Roofsprinters
Ring 1: Kil'ruk's Band of Ascendancy
Ring 2: Ring of Restless Energy
Trinket 1: Assurance of Consequence
Trinket 2: Haromm's Talisman
Weapon MH: Hvitserk's Formidable Shanker
Weapon OH: Hvitserk's Formidable Shanker[/table]

Stat Weights

[table] Stat | Weight
Agility:| 4.010
Yellow Hit:| 3.301
Expertise:| 2.934
Haste:| 1.799
Crit:| 1.696
Mastery:| 1.680
White Hit:| 1.010
Mainhand Dps:| 4.666
Offhand Dps:| 0.806
[/table]

T16 2pc: 3021.017
T16 4pc: 1471.888

Sims out at 436.7k DPS with Pandaren Racial and two static agility professions. Gear/Stat Weights are tentative, and note that the stat weights are for full BIS.

For almost all gear levels, your focus should be first hitting the Yellow Hit and Expertise caps (7.5% each), then Haste > Mastery = Crit for secondary stats.

Subtlety's Strengths/Weaknesses:

Strengths:

High(est) Single Target DPS
When it comes down to it, the reason Subtlety has been generating more interest lately (5.4 onward) is that it has become our strongest single target dps specialization; BIS Subtlety sims 20k+ over BIS Combat, which itself is already 20k+ over BIS Assassination, and the difference is even greater at lower gear levels (i.e. 553, 560, etc).

Smoother Damage Curve
Compared with something like Assassination that has a sharp downward slope until the execute phase or Combat that rapidly alternates between high damage spikes and low troughs waiting for Restless Blades to work its magic, Subtlety's damage curve is relatively smooth over the course of the fight, in part because of the relatively short cooldown of Shadow Dance (especially with Assurance of Consequence, which is a must-have for every Rogue spec), but also because of the high uptime of the Find Weakness debuff you can maintain through use of your cooldowns and/or your luck with T16 4pc procs.

"Rogue-like" Feel
This one is more of a personal preference, but the playstyle definitely seems to lend itself more to the typical rogue archetype most might expect from the class - sneaking in and out of stealth to slip in high damage strikes that exploit your targets' vulnerability.

Weaknesses:

Difficulty Switching Targets
One of the main drawbacks of Subtlety is that it loses its edge on fights that require a lot of target switching. This is in part due to the need to apply the Sanguinary Vein debuff to any new target you switch to (mitigated by Hemorrhaging Veins glyph), but is primarily because the main boon of the spec, Find Weakness, is a target specific debuff. And that's not even considering that Assassination can actually benefit from swapping (more Ruptures = more energy), and Combat can just cleave off the boss most of the time with Blade Flurry.

Poor AOE
Subtlety's AOE is fairly lacking compared with our other specs. Combat can cleave off the boss without any extra effort needed and can deal massive AOE spikes with Killing Spree using Blade Flurry, and Assassination can spread Deadly Poison to adds with Fan of Knives and gain extra energy regeneration through using Rupture on multiple targets. Subtlety also uses Fan of Knives as your CP builder for AOE (with Crimson Tempest as the finisher), but it doesnt benefit from Assassination's increased poison proc rate and damage, and Fan of Knives by itself does pretty lackluster damage.

Higher Degree of Complexity
This is technically a weakness, but is also part of the reason some are drawn to the spec - it's noticeably harder to play and master than our other specs.

Abilities:

Here's a list of the abilities/buffs/debuffs/passives you should be familiar with for playing specifically as Subtlety:

Core Mechanics:

Honor Among Thieves - Adds a combo point to your current target whenever a member of your raid crits with an ability, with an internal cooldown of 2 seconds. Will occur almost always on cooldown for reliable CP generation, though it has the potential to occasionally interfere with Anticipation charges transferring to your target after a finisher.
Energetic Recovery - Subtlety's main form of energy regeneration. It is attached to Slice and Dice, so you shouldn't have to worry about it much, since you should always keep Slice and Dice up anyway.
Sanguinary Vein - A passive effect that boosts your Rupture damage by 50% and causes you to deal 35% (tooltip is out of date) increased damage to targets affected by your Rupture, Garrote, Crimson Tempest or Hemorrhage (with the appropriate glyph). The effect is technically a passive buff on yourself, but it acts more like a debuff because it is only active with one of the specified bleeds on the target.
Find Weakness - A debuff that is applied whenever you use Ambush or Garrote, causing your attacks to completely ignore the target's armor for 10 seconds. Note that it only requires the use of a stealth-based attack, but not for you to necessarily be in stealth - i.e. an Ambush used during Shadow Dance will still apply the debuff, even though you are not technically in stealth.
Master of Subtlety - A buff that gives you 10% damage bonus during and after breaking stealth for the next 6 seconds. As opposed to Find Weakness, Master of Subtlety actually requires you to be stealthed to activate - i.e. an Ambush during Shadow Dance wont proc the ability, but an Ambush after using Vanish will.

Combo Point Builders:

Backstab - 35 energy, adds 1 combo point to the target. Requires you to be behind your target.
Hemorrhage - 30 energy, adds 1 combo point to the target, and a bleed that deals 50% of the initial strike's damage over 24 seconds and triggers Sanguinary Vein. Ticks every 3 seconds.
Ambush - 60 energy, adds 2 combo points. Requires you to be behind the target and in stealth/Shadow Dance. Applies Find Weakness debuff.
Fan of Knives - 35 energy, adds 1 combo point to the target (or an enemy with lingering combo points hit by it if one exists). Deals weak AOE damage, but has a chance to proc poisons on all targets hit.

Finishers:

Eviscerate - 35 energy, high physical damage. Use between reapplying Slice and Dice/Rupture i.e. most of your combo points will go into using Eviscerate.
Rupture - 25 energy, high damage bleed mostly due to Sanguinary Vein passive, which it also happens to trigger. Ticks every 2 seconds.
Slice and Dice - 25 energy. Increases your attack speed drastically, and procs Energetic Recovery.
Crimson Tempest - 35 energy, AOE physical damage + bleed for 240% of initial damage over 12 seconds that triggers Sanguinary Vein on all targets hit.

Cooldowns:

Shadow Dance - 1 minute cooldown (reduced by Assurance of Consequence), off GCD, 8 second duration. Allows use of Ambush/Garrote/Cheap Shot out of stealth, and reduces the energy cost of Ambush by 20 for the duration.
Shadow Blades - 3 minute cooldown (reduced by Assurance of Consequence), off GCD, 12 second duration. Causes your auto attacks to deal shadow damage in lieu of physical damage, and causes your combo point generating abilities to generate one additional combo point. Less important for Subtlety than it is for other specs because the Find Weakness debuff makes the auto attack component less potent.
Vanish - 2 minute cooldown (reduced by Assurance of Consequence), off GCD. Causes instant activation of stealth. Contrasted with Shadow Blades, Vanish is significantly more important for Subtlety than it is for other specs, as it allows additional casts of Ambush to maintain the Find Weakness debuff as well as is the only way to apply the Subterfuge/Master of Subtlety buffs during combat.
Premeditation - 20 second cooldown, off GCD. Adds two combo points to the target (which disappear if not used within 18 seconds). Can only be used in stealth/Shadow Dance
Preparation - 5 minute cooldown, on GCD. Resets the cooldown of Vanish (as well as Sprint, Evasion and Dismantle).

Poisons:
I almost didn't include this just from its overwhelming obviousness, but your lethal poison should be Deadly Poison. Use whatever non-lethal poison you feel like.

Talents:
T1: Subterfuge
T2: Combat Readiness (optional)
T3: Elusiveness (optional but very strongly recommended)
T4: Shadowstep (optional but very very strongly recommended)
T5: Prey on the Weak (optional)
T6: Anticipation

The only really mandatory ones are Subterfuge in T1 and Anticipation in T6. Subterfuge because it allows you additional ambushes after breaking stealth to extend the Find Weakness debuff and also extends your Master of Subtlety buff for the duration, and Anticipation because it allows you to capture combo points from Honor Among Thieves that would normally go to waste, and also pool combo points for when Find Weakness is up for additional Eviscerates.

For the other tiers, you can pick what you want, but Elusiveness in T3 is very strong for general fight survival (especially when combined with Glyph of Feint), and Shadowstep in T4 is a staple for most rogues, but T2-T5 come down to playstyle if you strongly prefer one to another.

Glyphs:

Glyph of Vanish
Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins
Glyph of Feint/Redirect/Smoke Bomb

Glyph of Vanish and Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins are the only ones that are actually important to your damage. Glyph of Vanish extends your Subterfuge by an additional 3 seconds (though it doesnt extend your Master of Subtlety buff further), and Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins allows you leniency with not being required to maintain 100% rupture uptime during the fight for the Sanguinary Vein debuff, which gives you the freedom to use other finishers as you see fit.

The third Glyph is a preference call. I use Glyph of Feint because Feint is great, and therefore extending it by 2 seconds is even better. You can swap in Glyph of Smoke Bomb if your raid is hurting for mitigation cooldowns or Glyph of Redirect if you need to target swap often, though subtlety is not the best at target swapping fights because Find Weakness is a target-specific debuff.

In the end, your setup should look something like this:

Mists of Pandaria - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Rotation:

As for rotation, lot of people are getting the precombat part wrong, so let me start there:

Pre-Combat:

~15 seconds before pull (get as close to 18 as you can without going over, minimum of 7 seconds so you have enough time to restealth before pull): Premeditation (from stealth) -> Unstealth -> Wait 1-2 seconds before pull -> Prepot + cast Slice and Dice -> Restealth -> Open

It's a little involved, but you'll want to cast Premeditation from stealth before pull to get Slice and Dice up, and you'll also need to be out of stealth to prepot, so you have to duck in/out/in of stealth. Note that casting Slice and Dice uses a GCD, so you'll want to do it before you actually open.

Opener:

There are two options for openers, and which one you use depends on your gear and/or the particular fight: a Garrote opener, and an Ambush opener.

Garrote Opener: Garrote -> Ambush -> Ambush
Ambush Opener: Ambush -> Hemorrhage -> Ambush

The Garrote opener costs 15 more energy, which makes it more difficult to pull off two Ambushes within the 3 second Subterfuge window (with 12,000+ haste I can't reliably pull it off on the target dummy, even with some involved micro with Energetic Recovery procs). However, it has the benefit of immediately applying the Sanguinary Vein and Find Weakness debuffs, meaning both of your Ambushes benefit from both buffs, instead of your first benefiting from neither. In addition, the Hemorrhage you use to put up Sanguinary Vein in the Ambush opener would also not benefit from the Sanguinary Vein buff, meaning you would either have a mediocre Hemorrhage dot or would have to spend more energy applying the correct one (which also effectively wastes the first one).

So basically, use the Garrote opener if you can (i.e. if you're going to use bloodlust on pull, or are very well geared with a lot of haste).

In Combat:

Things get a little dicey here, so I'll go into a general idea of what your mindset should be instead of a step-by-step list of what to do.

Your main combo point builder should be Backstab whenever possible (i.e. you can get behind your target), with Hemorrhage as your backup if you cant. You should use Hemorrhage to keep its bleed effect up, ideally during Find Weakness, because the bleed is based on the initial damage of the Hemorrhage it came from, which itself benefits from the armor penetration. During Shadow Dance, Backstab is replaced with Ambush, and it is higher DPS to delay reapplying Hemorrhage in favor of performing additional casts of Ambush during the cooldown; you can reapply Hemorrhage after the cooldown wears off and still get it under Find Weakness.

For finishers, keep Slice and Dice up at all times, and keep Rupture up as much as possible, with Eviscerate as your finisher spam (obviously). Try to avoid reapplying Slice and Dice/Rupture during Find Weakness if timing allows, but do it anyway if they are falling off, with a lesser priority on Rupture. To make that a little more clear - it's worth it to push back Shadow Dance/Vanish by a few seconds to first reapply Slice and Dice/Rupture before applying the Find Weakness debuff; however, if the debuff is already out and Slice and Dice/Rupture is about to fall off, you should reapply it anyway. You can reapply Rupture during the last 2 seconds and not lose the last tick - it will be added on to the new Rupture application, using the new Rupture's snapshotted stats (the same can be said of Hemorrhage, though for that it's the last 3 seconds instead).

Rupture vs Eviscerate during Find Weakness requires a bit of finesse. Without Find Weakness, Rupture is the clear winner - it does 80-85% as much damage as Eviscerate (before cutting Eviscerate by an additional 25%+ because of armor mitigation) for 40% less energy. Even during Find Weakness, Rupture has a higher damage per energy spent...but then things get more complicated when the discussion shifts from removing Rupture entirely to simply delaying it during Find Weakness. There are times when you should delay Rupture - an extreme example is if you have Rupture falling off and 5 CPs and 5 Anticipation charges with 1 second left on Find Weakness, then you can easily justify bumping the Rupture back a few seconds to snag the tail end of the debuff for the Eviscerate. However, what if that turns into 5 CPs +2 charges and 3 seconds left on Find Weakness? 4 CPs and 7 seconds left on Find Weakness? The answer is dynamic based on your combo points + charges, energy, time left on Find Weakness, and how many ticks of Rupture you'd lose. As a general rule of thumb, if you would lose 3 or more ticks of Rupture to use Eviscerate during Find Weakness, then it's probably not worth it.

Cooldowns can be another murky area. Shadow Dance is on a relatively low cooldown (especially with an Assurance of Consequence) and should be used virtually on cooldown to maintain high uptime of the Find Weakness debuff. It also replaces Backstab with a reduced-cost Ambush (-20 energy, to 40 energy cost). Because you have such high uptime of the Find Weakness buff, Shadow Blades loses some of its usefulness in overlap (with 100% armor penetration already on the target, the benefit of having shadow damage auto attacks is practically wiped out). However, the working assumption that is initially supported by Shadowcraft is that waiting to find an opening to use Shadow Blades is not worth the delayed usage of the CD, and that you should actually use it during Shadow Dance to increase your CP generation for more Eviscerate spam.

Your primary goal with your cooldowns is to maximize the uptime of your Find Weakness debuff, and you should plan out your Vanish usages in between Shadow Dances to that end. For both Shadow Dance and Vanish, you should make sure to save enough energy to use one final Ambush at the end of the buff's duration (40 energy for Shadow Dance, 60 for Vanish). The purpose of this is, again, to maximize your Find Weakness uptime; two Ambushes back to back only causes 11 combined seconds of Find Weakness, but two Ambushes 5 second apart causes 15 seconds. Assuming you took Glyph of Vanish (which you should), your Subterfuge buff will actually last 6 seconds instead of 3 (it will reapply itself after the first 3 second one runs out), which will usually allow you an additional Ambush per Vanish usage. Ambushing while the Find Weakness buff is still up will give the Ambush the extra damage of having been cast during the previous buff, so dont wait for the buff to fall off entirely before reappying it with another Ambush - ideally, you'd want to wait until <1 second left on Find Weakness to maximize it's uptime while still giving your new Ambush its benefit.

As mentioned earlier, try to time your CDs out so that your Rupture and Slice and Dice are refreshed going into them, but dont avoid refreshing them should you need to. Additionally, you should be pooling energy/CPs for Shadow Dance and Vanish (and T16 4pc bonus procs when you get it) to get as many Ambushes/Eviscerates during the Find Weakness buff as possible, especially after a Vanish because your Master of Subtlety buff will be back up. You can also use Preparation to reset the cooldown of your Vanish, but don't be in a huge hurry to do so - most fights only last long enough to use a single Preparation (5min CD), so saving it for later isnt a waste of the CD.

Premeditation is best used on its own and not macroed into something else if you can manage it, but it is one more thing to manage in what is already the most complicated Rogue spec by a decent margin. The reason for this is Premeditation will not add to your Anticipation charges if used at 4+ combo points, so having it macroed in means you run the risk of losing those combo points (although if it's between macroing it in and not using it at all, macroing it in is obviously the better choice).

I'll add more as more info becomes available/uncovered

Macros

A few useful macros that I use, feel free to ignore/improve/steal them (as I did with the Backstab one =D)

[spoiler]Backstab/Ambush
#showtooltip
/startattack [nostealth]
/cast [stance:0] Backstab
/cast [stance:1/2/3] Ambush

Changes from Backstab to Ambush depending on your current state. Can have slight lag when entering Shadow Dance, so give it a split second or you may use Backstab by mistake.

Preparation
#showtooltip Preparation
/cast Evasion
/cast Sprint
/cast Preparation

Blows Evasion and Sprint before casting Preparation, which immediately resets their cooldowns. You can throw in Vanish if you want, but I prefer to manage that separately.

Shadow Dance/Shadow Blades
#showtooltip
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Blades

Uses both cooldowns at the same time, or whichever is up when you press it.

Fan of Knives
#showtooltip
/startattack
/cast Fan of Knives

Simple macro that re-toggles your attack on whatever target you are using Fan of Knives on.

Tricks of the Trade
#showtooltip
/cast [@InsertNameHere] Tricks of the Trade

Casts Tricks of the Trade on your DPS target or tank by name.


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#2 Knarcus

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:55 PM

Preparation is in fact on the GCD and that is one of the reasons to not immediately use it.

I had trouble managing the optimal usage of Premeditation so I wrote myself a WA to monitor the perfect usage.
dSdUiaGEbLAxsL0RfuYmvrMTQCBQQBkOsFwv9nPsDyjTtjAVODdz)sf)uLQHrr1VPY5HkdvqgSuYWPWbvjonOJjvDCbfTqO0sLqTyvy5c9qjKNQSmvsph4wQuAQIAYI00jUifLRQIQlt66uAJQO8mkYMLITdv9rbv8vbfAAcmpjGrkOQ)kIrdfnEOW3vP4Sck4Asq3tc02KkX4Ks9yQYSNzUkZu4aC9DnORD31EZ585s5szMdOVMqois4WEpNVhUNm7Smxu)qhkJZq5(rN1Gdz9Zr4)Rral75GPCHIQVM2Pv4wr1V6RiH75QPmZfDpLzoF7tGmtHcfofdJkkvt5bfopMzzpZCwKeH)VgzMdyOVxz1xzzFqFBtu4Ki8)1iZCcodLdivXc4SanrQXVkfRHPfg1uILtXRiH7INaDOoTohupEkNfOjad99kR(kXYzrkEfjCvR44SanXIGcXYbm03RS6RSSpOVTjoplqC(jyctvob6RPu4WuHFmfw2FTn3ZvtzMtQpfjSSVnN3RcamZbGO)t5k(E4CUzu4SanrQpfjelNfOjEVkaqSCr3tzMZ3(eiZuOWzbAcWq9iwolqt8C(hvHy5agQhZCai6)uwAIcfUghsgmSvwEnGlfcmEvCtQEHfGRtlUO(HougNHYb9CiopN7L6UbXdomU30auHNfuO5M6I59D3Dq7cd6dcyZTbbC10uOaDO6lrIW)xJaMzzpZCse()AKzobNHYbKQybCa7HIxrYSnnqm4sk6YYjlFP4mNfOjEo)dNHdIeaXYP4vKWvKZ)W1PvihejaoG9qXRijuuBGyWTqMD6eNfbfoJxfNg58C(hodhejGeNHgRIlYvGcYzbAIfbfILZIu8ks4QwXX558pCgoisaCMOWzrse()AKzkuy5vM5Ki8)1iZCcodLRAJvoG9qXRiz2MgigCjfDz5KLVuCMZDd6o6HJy5u8ks4cVwFcMCa7HIxrsOO2aXGBHm70jolqlYzrcXY55SiHZeNNZIK7gASkUixbkiNfbfoJxfNg5qvFfWml75UGeOh0OkqhIcxQEyBAY4muUWB2PqND(jkCwKeH)VgzMcfkC4U30auHNDB7GGGRbD3xOP2M6I5McyZTbfYDdmvWKL9xBZHS(5i8)1iGLM4GPCHIQVM2Pvyeky2P1fKa70A2JoTUYv9eOdbyMdi1OWmxQlXZceNppOqHclVYmhg3BAaQWZck0CtDX8(U7oODHb9bbS52GaolsIW)xJmZbm03RS6RSSpOVTjkCvpb6qaM5asnkmZL6s8SaX5Zdku4Ki8)1iZCcodLdivXc48SaX5NGjmv5eOVMYP4vKWDXtGouNwNdQhpLZc0ePg)QuSgMwyutjwolqtag67vw9vILdyOVxz1xzzFqFBtCwGMyrqHy5SifVIeUQvCu4WuHFmfw2FTn3ZvtzMZc0eVxfaiwUO7PmZ5BFcKzku4SanbyOEelNfOjEo)JQqSCad1Jzoae9FklnrHZ7vbaM5aq0)PCfFpCo3mku4ACizWWwz51aUuiW4vXnP6fwaUoT4I6h6qzCgkh0ZH48CUxQ7gep4QPPqb6q1xIeH)VgbmZYEM5Ki8)1iZCcodLdivXc4a2dfVIKzBAGyWLu0LLtw(sXzolqt8C(hodhejaILtXRiHRiN)HRtRqoisaCa7HIxrsOO2aXGBHm70jolckCgVkonY558pCgoisajodnwfxKRafKZIu8ks4QwXXzbAIfbfILZZ5F4mCqKa4mrHZIKi8)1iZuOWYRmZjr4)RrM5eCgkx1gRCa7HIxrYSnnqm4sk6YYjlFP4mN7g0D0dhXYP4vKWfET(em5a2dfVIKqrTbIb3cz2PtCqeEncuILdv9vaZSSN7csGEqJQaDikCweu4mEvCAKlvpSnnzCgkx4n7uOZo)efolsIW)xJmtHcfoC3BAaQWZUTDqqW1GU7l0uBtDXCtbS52Gc5UbMkyYY(RT5qw)Ce()AeWstCWuUqr1xt706E5PWqNwfOGM60QOqDADLcfo8SSpWCZPqca

It will show the icon of Premed when it is safe to use it, but the timewindows can be small so you have to react fast.

#3 Jurugar

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:15 PM

Preparation is in fact on the GCD and that is one of the reasons to not immediately use it.


You are correct, that was an oversight on my part.

#4 swswsw

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:23 PM

Is anyone uploading videos of themselves playing sub atm to youtube or anything? Would be interested to watch for educational purposes

#5 dommy

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:46 PM

Good afternoon, fellow rogues.

I've never played sub before--not even in a pvp setting--but this week I gave it a try in a heroic raid setting to see if the theorized numbers could match up with reality. I took some time to play with it in lfr and get a general gist of it, but I'm sure I still have much to learn.

I was hoping that someone well versed in sub could briefly look over my logs and see if you notice anything glaringly wrong. Even on the Iron Juggernaut encounter, where I can maintain close to 100% uptime behind the boss, I did slightly less dps than my assassination counterpart. For starters, I know I'm not using premeditation at any time other than the pull. This is simply something I'll have to get used to.

Entire raid: Analyze - 15-10 18:31 - Huge in Japan - World of Logs

Iron Juggernaut only: Analyze - 15-10 18:31 - Huge in Japan - World of Logs

If anyone can take the time to help, I'd be super appreicative and if we ever meet in real life, beers on me.

- Patentz

#6 Speaker

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:23 PM

Your rupture uptime was only 57.4%. Very very low. You want to have close to 100% uptime on rupture. You didn't vanish a single time. For each vanish you can get up to 3 ambushes. For each dance you can get up to 5 ambushes. You danced 8 times and did 38 ambushes. Only 1 of those was probably from your opener since you used garrote to open. 37 ambushes from 8 dances is pretty good imo, but you should have had a lot more ambushes if you had used vanish. It is also hard to comment on your find weakness uptime (51.9%) since you didn't use vanish. And of course you will need to use premed. Macro it into your spells if you have to.

#7 dommy

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:35 PM

So even though Garrote and Hemorrhage will also trigger Sanguinary Veins, I still want to keep up Rupture for the 50% damage boost it gets? Even if Garrote is up?

I haven't been applying Rupture during the FW buff at all, but after re-reading the OP and based on your astonishment (haha), I see that I should be delaying Rupture only for a few seconds at most instead of altogether.

As far as the FW uptime goes, do you have a general idea of what it should be closer to so that I can track my progress keeping it up?

Thank you so much for the input.

#8 Jurugar

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:57 PM

So even though Garrote and Hemorrhage will also trigger Sanguinary Veins, I still want to keep up Rupture for the 50% damage boost it gets? Even if Garrote is up?

I haven't been applying Rupture during the FW buff at all, but after re-reading the OP and based on your astonishment (haha), I see that I should be delaying Rupture only for a few seconds at most instead of altogether.

As far as the FW uptime goes, do you have a general idea of what it should be closer to so that I can track my progress keeping it up?

Thank you so much for the input.


Even without the Sanguinary Vein debuff, Rupture itself is one of the highest damage abilities you have, and is definitely the highest when it comes to damage per energy spent.

As for Find Weakness, that depends on numerous factors, such as if you have an Assurance of Consequence (and what level it is) and if you have your 4pc, as well as factors like fight length and, of course, what fight it actually is - naturally, you'd have higher uptime on Malkorok than on Thok. On a patchwerk fight with decent gear you can easily break 60% uptime, and can even get 70%+ with good execution and/or some RNG (and/or having a really short fight time).

#9 Speaker

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:04 PM

Yeah rupture is really important for subtlety. And, yes it is hard to say how high your FW uptime should be since there are a lot of factors. One is the Assurance of Consequence which affects cooldown timers. There are like 6 different versions of the trinket.

AND I just realized you have the 4 piece. That changes a lot, making it nearly impossible to give a good guess of how high your FW uptime should be because of the amount of RNG. But, if you were to exclude 4-piece rng, the best possible uptime for your Juggernaut fight (373 seconds) would have been 71.0%. That is with perfect timing on every cooldown and ambush, so it's not really realistic, just a theoretical max. But maybe a 64% uptime might be more realistic for that specific encounter.

The thing is, that was for a patchwork fight, where you would have had 100% dps uptime on the boss. Every fight is going to be different, and the FW uptime is going to also depend a lot on the duration of the fight.

The cooldowns for this spec repeat very predictably every 120 seconds (dance, vanish, dance, repeat). With the 48% trinket it repeats every 81.08 seconds, and during that time you can have up to a 66.6% uptime on FW. In your case you had 4 periods, plus the opener, and a fraction of a period (35.68 seconds). Consider the opener, which is 13 seconds of 100% uptime, and the final amount of time. In your case it was 35.68 seconds, in which your FW uptime would have been 100%. So these two added times bumped the 66.6% up to 71.0%.

!Remember that all of this is excluding the 4piece bonus ambushes!

Sorry if this was too mathematical. I personally find it very interesting.

#10 Pjaddnave

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:21 AM

After i have made my opener and got everything going from start. Before FW is about to drop i try to have as much Energy as possible (not capping) and then i pop ShD. it feels like i can cap CP so fast and it also feels like it takes forver to Evisca and make another ambush. Im not sure how many ambushes i get during that period (dont even know how to look it up).

How do u guys do (exactly) after opener and you are about to reapply FW with either Vanish or ShD.

Also i would like to know if there is a good way too macro /garrotte /ambush i have a really hard time to get 2 ambushes from opener.

For a while ago i posted som logs to get some feedback. I wonder if somone would like to take e quicklook at the new ones to see if i have adapted more and what i can do better now.

Dashboard - 17-10 17:04 - total nutters - World of Logs (flex)

Dashboard - 17-10 20:01 - The Obsidian Order - World of Logs (normal)

#11 dommy

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:05 PM

I was curious as to whether others were using the 4pc set or if they were opting for some of the off-pieces.  I know there really is no right or wrong answer, but I wanted to field some opinions.

 

Personally, I've kept the 4pc so far only because the secondary stats on the off-pieces I have aren't super strong for sub. The proc is super incredible awesome when it procs, but personally I don't find the 4% proc reliable.  I won't see it for a number of pulls, and then all of a sudden it will proc three to four times over the course of a single encounter.  In looking over my logs, my 4pc set isn't proc'ing, on average, every 25th ambush, which has led me to this post to see what other sub rogues are seeing and doing.

 

Currently, my 4pc EP is around 1400 on Shadowcraft, and subbing in the off-pieces that I have do create a substantial dps increase of 2k, but I think I am going to be sticking with the 4pc for now because, to be perfectly honest, when it procs it feels like winning the lottery.



#12 jsz

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:15 PM

I made a quick WeakAura to monitor Subs major cooldowns so I could see at a quicker glance what was up and what would be ready soon. Just a little box that has icons for Shadow Dance, Shadow Blades, and Vanish. Semi-transparent icon  and timer when its on cooldown, and a full icon when it's ready to go. Preview here: http://i.imgur.com/3eqVs0v.jpg

dStanaGEQuXUiKGTjOzsiHMnLUTa3KqQXPs(MkCAI2je7fTBf2VsLFQQAykIFtvpdQAOQigSsvdNchKqsNIkv6yc5CQuwOIAPksTyvulhkpKkv9uWYOcpxQjQiPPkXKPOPl6IuP4QQiDzsxxsBeQ0wjKOnluBhQ4Jksmnv5Zq67eIhtWHvYOjuJxLQUevk5wujxtPCEQO)QQmkQuQxRsLzelewSWKqtWHOWecbemjyYcH7)JJBnjUHr3C8cdddp2MGpmkKXUExeC(hh3AsCDfE5y7iCsy4TjVjH4VXyxVncykQ0pkonucOy(QbHwTXN4LJKW8FP8lArr3GBHGEVXAyQMCMWOguWKOOkwtKicstct7rR6U9q9mbRFzYcbmVvzHqq1MswyYKjtccSqKiwiC)FCCRjX11MJJJWNJBoUEoCClYbJD9cj05s4U(eVCKeM)lLFrtatrL(rXPHsqk4heC(hh3AsCD92oWFl8n5iC7AYv4JXUEBeg1GcMefvXAIerqAsaeVm9ISB)uxdbD3(P1LPtcIintXe5DriXKOOkglesNgkHoxzTjO4OJKGOkKs)y3(t71zRsqO2Pp4tS0ujKYa1KqT1V2qTwKvGYzcTHATiRaLiBrhr4juB9RoKjNjuhko6ijSQPNjHARfV3MsdEMGyvIkojY7IqDKysuufJfcTHATiRaLiBrhr4zsW6xMSqO26NGD1nNjG5TklecQ2uYctMeQT(1gQaNjuB9tWhCELCMqBOcSqOLduRse8mjiyxDZcHwoqTkHP)NYPUHjtMeXbleU)poU1K46k8DG)6WXnhVd8hB4dzSR3fbRFzYcHARFc2v3CMaM3QSqiOAtjlmzsO26xBOcCMqT1pbFW5vYzcTHkWcHwoqTkrWZKGGD1nleA5a1QeM(FkN6gMmjuhjMefvXyHqBOwlYkqjsKJO3retco)JJBnjUUEBh4Vf(MCeUDn5k8XyxVncstcG4LPxKD7NTltT3TFADz6KqIjrrvmwiKonucDUYAtqXrhjbrviL(XU9N2RZwLGqTtFWNyPPsiLbQjHARFTHATiRaLZeQdfhDKew10tO26xDitotOnuRfzfOejYr07iIjbrKMPyI8UimQbfmjkQI1ejIqT1I3BtPbptqSkrfNe5DratrL(rXPHsqk4he6CjCxFIxoscZ)LYVOzse8Sq4()44wtI7179IcX)MeD7a)r4eg76DrOZLWD9jE5ijm)xk)IMqDKysuufJfcTHATiRaLirxBHmj48poU1K466TDG)w4HJBhxtcXJ)GXUEBeg1GcMefvXAIerqAsquUgYw8U9tRltNesmjkQIXcH0PHsOZvwBcko6ijiQcP0p2T)0ED2QeeQD6d(elnvcPmqnjuB9RnuRfzfOCMqBOwlYkqjs01wiHARF1Hm5mH6qXrhjHvn9mjiI0mftK3fHARfV3MsdEMGyvIkojY7IaMIk9JItdLGuWpiy9ltwiuB9tWU6MZeW8wLfcbvBkzHjtc1w)AdvGZeQT(j4doVsotOnubwi0YbQvjcEMeeSRUzHqlhOwLW0)t5u3WKjtI8yHW9)XXTMexxBooocFoU5465WXTihm21lKqDKysuufJfcTHATiRaLiBrhr4zsO2AX7TP0GNjKysuufJfcPtdLqNRS2euC0rsW9EV10lYy3(tW8OyA37272GHATUlHARFTHATiRaLZeQdfhDKew10tO26xDitotOnuRfzfOezl6icpbHAN(GpXstLqkdutMeeRsuXjrExeS(LjleQT(jyxDZzcyERYcHGQnLSWKjHARFTHkWzcTHkWcHwoqTkrWZKqT1pbFW5vYzcc2v3SqOLduRsy6)PCQByYKqSFKG0DuIe9iykBd7YjKlH7AcULbbmfv6hfNgkbPGFqqW7TMErg8mbbV1JXcrEe3TJWx4Kd83ErxBoIczSRThtcstcG4LPxKD7N6AiO727(PsqePzkMiVlco)JJBnjUUEBh4Vf(MCeUDn5k8XyxVncYbokwRCMWOguWKOOkwtKicDUeURpXlhjH5)s5x0mjYgleU)poU1KiUCGNGZ)44wtIRR32b(BHVjhHBxtUcFm21BJqT1I3BtPbptiXKOOkglesNgkHoxzTjO4OJKG79ERPxKXU9NG5rX0U3T3Tbd1ADxcc1o9bFILMkHugOMeQT(1gQ1IScuotOnuRfzfOejYr07iIqT1V6qMCMqDO4OJKWQMEMeeRsuXjrExeS(LjleQT(jyxDZzcyERYcHGQnLSWKjHARFTHkWzc1w)e8bNxjNj0gQaleA5a1Qebptcc2v3SqOLduRsy6)PCQByYKqSFKG0DuIe9iykBd7YjKlH7AcULbbmfv6hfNgkbPGFqqW7TMErg8mbbV1JXcrEe3TJWx4Kd83ErxBoIczSRThtcstcG4LPxKD7NTltT3T39tLqDKysuufJfcTHATiRaLiroIEhrmjiI0mftK3fHrnOGjrrvSMireKdCuSw5mHoxc31N4LJKW8FP8lAMejKfc3)hh3Ase8tiuhjMefvXyHqBOwlYkqjs01witc1wlEVnLg8mHetIIQySqiDAOe6CL1MGIJoscU37TMErg72FcMhft7E3E3gmuR1DjuB9RnuRfzfOCMqDO4OJKWQMEc1w)QdzYzcTHATiRaLirxBHeeQD6d(elnvcPmqnzsqSkrfNe5DrW6xMSqO26NGD1nNjG5TklecQ2uYctMeQT(1gQaNj0gQaleA5a1Qebptc1w)e8bNxjNjiyxDZcHwoqTkHP)NYPUHjtcX(rcs3rjs0JGPSnSlNqUeURj4wgeWuuPFuCAOeKc(bbbV3A6fzWZeKMeeLRHSfVBV7NkbbV1JXcrEe3TJWx4Kd83ErxBoIczSRThtcIintXe5DrW5FCCRjX11B7a)TW3KJWTRjxHpg76TrqoWrXALZeg1GcMefvXAIerOZLWD9jE5ijm)xk)IMjtc4qKOx0eMKa

The WeakAuras themselves are pretty straightforward and easy to modify or add other cooldowns, such as Prep. I left it out purely due to space constraints on my UI.



#13 alaxel

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 01:30 PM

Hi guys. This is my first post on Elitist jerks, and I've got many things Id like answered. Actually maybe not as much answered as rather discussed since I see so much information on different forums that sometimes even disagree with one another completely.  :P

 

But yes, do we really have the opener set in stone yet?

 

Personally I'm still not even sure what to do, however my opener is really not like what you're describing and atleast from my experience ive gotten higher numbers this way. 

 

Basically, the problems I have is understanding how shadowblades, shadow dance, and find weakness interacts with eachother. For example, everyone says that its better to dance with blades always. But how the hell does that make sense? Backstab is 35 energy and Ambush is 40 energy. Since blades give +1 combo point per builder, wouldnt it be slightly more beneficial to use blades outside of shadow dance?

 

Also the matter of having shadow blades active when find weakness is active or not. According to shadowcraft its a dps loss to use blades on find weakness but its a gain to use it in shadow dance? Can someone help me and explain how that would make sense. From what I can understand and would assume myself would be that the opposite is the best. My opener right now that has produced the highest numbers is:

 

Prep slice -> Shadow blades -> Ambush -> Hemo -> backstab for 10 sec until FW drops, Shadow dance -> ambushes -> Vanish (Prep immediately) -> Ambush -> Vanish again when FW drops -> now its been about 40-42 seconds so AoC Dance is up again -> Dance ambush spam.

 

This is basically 100% uptime on FW for the first 50-55 seconds.

 

The other would be to dance and blades immediately in the pull which might give a bit higher burst but its gonna drop down really fast right after blades and dance are running out. With my opener I managed 298k on juggernaut (normal) which was at the time 9k above my ShC simulation. After looking at Skada afterwards I noticed that my evis was top dmg with an average crit of 70%. Basically it meant that my dps was a bit skewed because I had lucky crits on evis, and evis should be 2nd or 3rd of my dmg with a haste build.

 

Also, I thought they had fixed the bug with glyph of vanish and subterfuge, is it still active as of 5.4? For sure? I remember testing it when it was stated to be fixed in the patch notes sometime between 5.2 and 5.3 and I didnt get it to work anymore.

 

Final note, im using shadow focus sometimes and honestly, I havent seen it to really be a loss in dps. The burst numbers are way higher with shadow focus that with subterfuge, and Backstab at 35e has higher dpe than 60e Ambush. Are those 3 seconds of master of subtlety+FW really worth it? Depending on ilvl AoC, you have to wait a few extra seconds for FW to run out before you pop dance when using subterfuge, because of the way cooldowns/FW line up during the first 50-60 seconds of a pull. 

 

THat's it for me now, and yeah, I apologize if its a bit cluttered but I just had to get all things down before going to work!

 

ps: isnt head from immerseus better than head from garrosh? haste+crit > haste+mastery eh?


Edited by alaxel, 27 October 2013 - 01:56 PM.


#14 Hellavor

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:39 AM

Also the matter of having shadow blades active when find weakness is active or not. According to shadowcraft its a dps loss to use blades on find weakness but its a gain to use it in shadow dance? Can someone help me and explain how that would make sense. From what I can understand and would assume myself would be that the opposite is the best.

 

I don't really play sub (though I'll probably drop combat to break it back out in a few days again) but I'm pretty sure this is because Shadow Blades converts all your autos to shadow damage, which inherently bypasses armor. Therefore, you're wasting that armor penetration from Find Weakness which you could use outside of shadow blades and still get the full amount.



#15 alaxel

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:52 AM

yes exactly my point. having shadow dance equals shadowdance+FW so how it can be a gain in one and a loss in the other is what im coming at



#16 wollro

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:51 PM

I must be missing something.  If you can't open with Garrote, why wouldn't you open with Hemo and then do both ambushes?  Then both ambushes benefit from Sanguinary Veins.  



#17 Jurugar

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:54 PM

Hi guys. This is my first post on Elitist jerks, and I've got many things Id like answered. Actually maybe not as much answered as rather discussed since I see so much information on different forums that sometimes even disagree with one another completely.  :P

 

But yes, do we really have the opener set in stone yet?

 

Personally I'm still not even sure what to do, however my opener is really not like what you're describing and atleast from my experience ive gotten higher numbers this way. 

 

Basically, the problems I have is understanding how shadowblades, shadow dance, and find weakness interacts with eachother. For example, everyone says that its better to dance with blades always. But how the hell does that make sense? Backstab is 35 energy and Ambush is 40 energy. Since blades give +1 combo point per builder, wouldnt it be slightly more beneficial to use blades outside of shadow dance?

 

Also the matter of having shadow blades active when find weakness is active or not. According to shadowcraft its a dps loss to use blades on find weakness but its a gain to use it in shadow dance? Can someone help me and explain how that would make sense. From what I can understand and would assume myself would be that the opposite is the best. My opener right now that has produced the highest numbers is:

 

Prep slice -> Shadow blades -> Ambush -> Hemo -> backstab for 10 sec until FW drops, Shadow dance -> ambushes -> Vanish (Prep immediately) -> Ambush -> Vanish again when FW drops -> now its been about 40-42 seconds so AoC Dance is up again -> Dance ambush spam.

 

This is basically 100% uptime on FW for the first 50-55 seconds.

 

The other would be to dance and blades immediately in the pull which might give a bit higher burst but its gonna drop down really fast right after blades and dance are running out. With my opener I managed 298k on juggernaut (normal) which was at the time 9k above my ShC simulation. After looking at Skada afterwards I noticed that my evis was top dmg with an average crit of 70%. Basically it meant that my dps was a bit skewed because I had lucky crits on evis, and evis should be 2nd or 3rd of my dmg with a haste build.

 

Also, I thought they had fixed the bug with glyph of vanish and subterfuge, is it still active as of 5.4? For sure? I remember testing it when it was stated to be fixed in the patch notes sometime between 5.2 and 5.3 and I didnt get it to work anymore.

 

Final note, im using shadow focus sometimes and honestly, I havent seen it to really be a loss in dps. The burst numbers are way higher with shadow focus that with subterfuge, and Backstab at 35e has higher dpe than 60e Ambush. Are those 3 seconds of master of subtlety+FW really worth it? Depending on ilvl AoC, you have to wait a few extra seconds for FW to run out before you pop dance when using subterfuge, because of the way cooldowns/FW line up during the first 50-60 seconds of a pull. 

 

THat's it for me now, and yeah, I apologize if its a bit cluttered but I just had to get all things down before going to work!

 

ps: isnt head from immerseus better than head from garrosh? haste+crit > haste+mastery eh?

 

As I wrote in the guide, Shadow Blades is a much less significant cooldown than Shadow Dance is. If your only goal was to get the most benefit out of Shadow Blades, then you would wait/plan out a lull in your Find Weakness uptime and use it then - but that would mean waiting 1min+ before using it, effectively increasing its cooldown by upwards of 50% just to try and get the optimal usage out of it. The way you have it right now, you are actually delaying Shadow Dance during your highest DPS phase of the entire fight - the opening ~20-30 seconds, when you are virtually guaranteed a perfect storm of Bloodlust, double trinket procs, double weapon procs, and your pre-pot. Using Shadow Blades and Shadow Dance together in your opener will net you slightly fewer combo points in the aggregate, but the combo points you do get will all be fed into more supercharged Ruptures and Eviscerates because Ambush will give 2+1 combo points for 40 energy, vs Backstab giving 1+1 per 35 - your % increase in CP generation may be less, but your CP per GCD during this critial phase of the fight will be almost 50% higher, essentially leading to ~45%+ more finishers with all your bells and whistles (not quite 50% because Ambush is 40 energy vs Backstab 35). And that's not even taking into account how much more damage double trinket Ambushes do than double trinket Backstabs.

 

In my opener I would wait for the Subterfuge buff to wear off before I would use Shadow Dance, so that I'm not wasting the use of any Ambushes from Subterfuge while still catching some of the Master of Subtlety buff on my Shadow Dance. You could argue that my opener I'm wasting Find Weakness using Shadow Dance then, but part of the complexity of Subtlety is that many of your decisions are situational; maximizing Find Weakness uptime is critically important, but a rotation that focuses solely on getting as high a % uptime on it as possible will lose to one that involves making dynamic decisions during the fight based on buffs and procs. I cant comment on how much damage you should be doing without getting a look at your gear and/or logs, although such a high Eviscerate crit chance is certainly unusual and probably bumped your DPS up by 20-30k at least. Reaching/beating your Shadowcraft simulated DPS is something you should be doing if you've mastered the spec anyway, depending on the fight, of course; I got several top 5 Subtlety ranks on the 3 patchwerk normals (Juggernaut, Malkorok, Siegecrafter) before my hiatus about a month ago despite being sub 560 ilvl, because I understood the spec fairly well at a time when it was just gaining popularity.

 

As for Shadow Focus, Subterfuge is just across the board better. With Shadow Focus, you get 1 Ambush for a 45 energy discount. With Subterfuge, you get 3 extra seconds of Master of Subtlety during your opener/whenever you vanish, plus the additional Ambushes you can now cast out of stealth can extend Find Weakness by upwards of 6 seconds per vanish.


Edited by Jurugar, 28 October 2013 - 05:55 PM.


#18 Queldommage

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:09 PM

Just to add to the opener variety, my opener goes as follows:

 

Prepot macro ( listed below ), Premed - Garrote - Ambush - Slice - 5 combo rupture - Shadow Blades

 

#showtooltip Virmens Bite

/cast Virmens Bite

/cast Stealth

 

This is quite possible not the best way to open, but my raid team doesnt always allow enough time for the in-out-in opener.


Edited by Queldommage, 29 October 2013 - 01:23 PM.


#19 Aceydubs

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:00 PM

Just to add to the opener variety, my opener goes as follows:

 

Prepot macro ( listed below ), Premed - Garrote - Ambush - Slice - 5 combo rupture - Shadow Blades

 

#showtooltip Virmens Bite

/cast Virmens Bite

/cast Stealth

 

This is quite possible not the best way to open, but my raid team doesnt always allow enough time for the in-out-in opener.

 

Can someone confirm/deny with a reference, if possible, that it's better to prioritize Rup > SnD?



#20 Jurugar

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:43 PM

Can someone confirm/deny with a reference, if possible, that it's better to prioritize Rup > SnD?

 

You want to prioritize Slice and Dice because Energetic Recovery is your main form of energy regeneration, and also losing out on a few auto attacks from losing the ~50% attack speed increase (especially with the spec's high uptime of Find Weakness, giving the auto attacks 100% armor penetration) can more than make up for losing a couple ticks of Rupture. Of course that's assuming you still have Sanguinary Vein up - if necessary, you can use a low CP slice and dice and just have to refresh it sooner.

 

On an unrelated note, can someone who's good at the new website format help me figure out what's wrong with how I set up the table at the start? That huge blank space before the gear list shouldn't be there =/






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