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Sneaking into 5.4 Raiding - Subtlety DPS Guide (with Pun!)


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#1 Jurugar

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:03 AM

This post has been promoted to an article

Edited by Jurugar, 27 October 2013 - 04:25 AM.


#2 Knarcus

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:55 PM

Preparation is in fact on the GCD and that is one of the reasons to not immediately use it.

I had trouble managing the optimal usage of Premeditation so I wrote myself a WA to monitor the perfect usage.
dSdUiaGEbLAxsL0RfuYmvrMTQCBQQBkOsFwv9nPsDyjTtjAVODdz)sf)uLQHrr1VPY5HkdvqgSuYWPWbvjonOJjvDCbfTqO0sLqTyvy5c9qjKNQSmvsph4wQuAQIAYI00jUifLRQIQlt66uAJQO8mkYMLITdv9rbv8vbfAAcmpjGrkOQ)kIrdfnEOW3vP4Sck4Asq3tc02KkX4Ks9yQYSNzUkZu4aC9DnORD31EZ585s5szMdOVMqois4WEpNVhUNm7Smxu)qhkJZq5(rN1Gdz9Zr4)Rral75GPCHIQVM2Pv4wr1V6RiH75QPmZfDpLzoF7tGmtHcfofdJkkvt5bfopMzzpZCwKeH)VgzMdyOVxz1xzzFqFBtu4Ki8)1iZCcodLdivXc4SanrQXVkfRHPfg1uILtXRiH7INaDOoTohupEkNfOjad99kR(kXYzrkEfjCvR44SanXIGcXYbm03RS6RSSpOVTjoplqC(jyctvob6RPu4WuHFmfw2FTn3ZvtzMtQpfjSSVnN3RcamZbGO)t5k(E4CUzu4SanrQpfjelNfOjEVkaqSCr3tzMZ3(eiZuOWzbAcWq9iwolqt8C(hvHy5agQhZCai6)uwAIcfUghsgmSvwEnGlfcmEvCtQEHfGRtlUO(HougNHYb9CiopN7L6UbXdomU30auHNfuO5M6I59D3Dq7cd6dcyZTbbC10uOaDO6lrIW)xJaMzzpZCse()AKzobNHYbKQybCa7HIxrYSnnqm4sk6YYjlFP4mNfOjEo)dNHdIeaXYP4vKWvKZ)W1PvihejaoG9qXRijuuBGyWTqMD6eNfbfoJxfNg58C(hodhejGeNHgRIlYvGcYzbAIfbfILZIu8ks4QwXX558pCgoisaCMOWzrse()AKzkuy5vM5Ki8)1iZCcodLRAJvoG9qXRiz2MgigCjfDz5KLVuCMZDd6o6HJy5u8ks4cVwFcMCa7HIxrsOO2aXGBHm70jolqlYzrcXY55SiHZeNNZIK7gASkUixbkiNfbfoJxfNg5qvFfWml75UGeOh0OkqhIcxQEyBAY4muUWB2PqND(jkCwKeH)VgzMcfkC4U30auHNDB7GGGRbD3xOP2M6I5McyZTbfYDdmvWKL9xBZHS(5i8)1iGLM4GPCHIQVM2Pvyeky2P1fKa70A2JoTUYv9eOdbyMdi1OWmxQlXZceNppOqHclVYmhg3BAaQWZck0CtDX8(U7oODHb9bbS52GaolsIW)xJmZbm03RS6RSSpOVTjkCvpb6qaM5asnkmZL6s8SaX5Zdku4Ki8)1iZCcodLdivXc48SaX5NGjmv5eOVMYP4vKWDXtGouNwNdQhpLZc0ePg)QuSgMwyutjwolqtag67vw9vILdyOVxz1xzzFqFBtCwGMyrqHy5SifVIeUQvCu4WuHFmfw2FTn3ZvtzMZc0eVxfaiwUO7PmZ5BFcKzku4SanbyOEelNfOjEo)JQqSCad1Jzoae9FklnrHZ7vbaM5aq0)PCfFpCo3mku4ACizWWwz51aUuiW4vXnP6fwaUoT4I6h6qzCgkh0ZH48CUxQ7gep4QPPqb6q1xIeH)VgbmZYEM5Ki8)1iZCcodLdivXc4a2dfVIKzBAGyWLu0LLtw(sXzolqt8C(hodhejaILtXRiHRiN)HRtRqoisaCa7HIxrsOO2aXGBHm70jolckCgVkonY558pCgoisajodnwfxKRafKZIu8ks4QwXXzbAIfbfILZZ5F4mCqKa4mrHZIKi8)1iZuOWYRmZjr4)RrM5eCgkx1gRCa7HIxrYSnnqm4sk6YYjlFP4mN7g0D0dhXYP4vKWfET(em5a2dfVIKqrTbIb3cz2PtCqeEncuILdv9vaZSSN7csGEqJQaDikCweu4mEvCAKlvpSnnzCgkx4n7uOZo)efolsIW)xJmtHcfoC3BAaQWZUTDqqW1GU7l0uBtDXCtbS52Gc5UbMkyYY(RT5qw)Ce()AeWstCWuUqr1xt706E5PWqNwfOGM60QOqDADLcfo8SSpWCZPqca

It will show the icon of Premed when it is safe to use it, but the timewindows can be small so you have to react fast.

#3 Jurugar

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:15 PM

Preparation is in fact on the GCD and that is one of the reasons to not immediately use it.


You are correct, that was an oversight on my part.

#4 swswsw

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:23 PM

Is anyone uploading videos of themselves playing sub atm to youtube or anything? Would be interested to watch for educational purposes

#5 dommy

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:46 PM

Good afternoon, fellow rogues.

I've never played sub before--not even in a pvp setting--but this week I gave it a try in a heroic raid setting to see if the theorized numbers could match up with reality. I took some time to play with it in lfr and get a general gist of it, but I'm sure I still have much to learn.

I was hoping that someone well versed in sub could briefly look over my logs and see if you notice anything glaringly wrong. Even on the Iron Juggernaut encounter, where I can maintain close to 100% uptime behind the boss, I did slightly less dps than my assassination counterpart. For starters, I know I'm not using premeditation at any time other than the pull. This is simply something I'll have to get used to.

Entire raid: Analyze - 15-10 18:31 - Huge in Japan - World of Logs

Iron Juggernaut only: Analyze - 15-10 18:31 - Huge in Japan - World of Logs

If anyone can take the time to help, I'd be super appreicative and if we ever meet in real life, beers on me.

- Patentz

#6 Speaker

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:23 PM

Your rupture uptime was only 57.4%. Very very low. You want to have close to 100% uptime on rupture. You didn't vanish a single time. For each vanish you can get up to 3 ambushes. For each dance you can get up to 5 ambushes. You danced 8 times and did 38 ambushes. Only 1 of those was probably from your opener since you used garrote to open. 37 ambushes from 8 dances is pretty good imo, but you should have had a lot more ambushes if you had used vanish. It is also hard to comment on your find weakness uptime (51.9%) since you didn't use vanish. And of course you will need to use premed. Macro it into your spells if you have to.

#7 dommy

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:35 PM

So even though Garrote and Hemorrhage will also trigger Sanguinary Veins, I still want to keep up Rupture for the 50% damage boost it gets? Even if Garrote is up?

I haven't been applying Rupture during the FW buff at all, but after re-reading the OP and based on your astonishment (haha), I see that I should be delaying Rupture only for a few seconds at most instead of altogether.

As far as the FW uptime goes, do you have a general idea of what it should be closer to so that I can track my progress keeping it up?

Thank you so much for the input.

#8 Jurugar

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:57 PM

So even though Garrote and Hemorrhage will also trigger Sanguinary Veins, I still want to keep up Rupture for the 50% damage boost it gets? Even if Garrote is up?

I haven't been applying Rupture during the FW buff at all, but after re-reading the OP and based on your astonishment (haha), I see that I should be delaying Rupture only for a few seconds at most instead of altogether.

As far as the FW uptime goes, do you have a general idea of what it should be closer to so that I can track my progress keeping it up?

Thank you so much for the input.


Even without the Sanguinary Vein debuff, Rupture itself is one of the highest damage abilities you have, and is definitely the highest when it comes to damage per energy spent.

As for Find Weakness, that depends on numerous factors, such as if you have an Assurance of Consequence (and what level it is) and if you have your 4pc, as well as factors like fight length and, of course, what fight it actually is - naturally, you'd have higher uptime on Malkorok than on Thok. On a patchwerk fight with decent gear you can easily break 60% uptime, and can even get 70%+ with good execution and/or some RNG (and/or having a really short fight time).

#9 Speaker

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:04 PM

Yeah rupture is really important for subtlety. And, yes it is hard to say how high your FW uptime should be since there are a lot of factors. One is the Assurance of Consequence which affects cooldown timers. There are like 6 different versions of the trinket.

AND I just realized you have the 4 piece. That changes a lot, making it nearly impossible to give a good guess of how high your FW uptime should be because of the amount of RNG. But, if you were to exclude 4-piece rng, the best possible uptime for your Juggernaut fight (373 seconds) would have been 71.0%. That is with perfect timing on every cooldown and ambush, so it's not really realistic, just a theoretical max. But maybe a 64% uptime might be more realistic for that specific encounter.

The thing is, that was for a patchwork fight, where you would have had 100% dps uptime on the boss. Every fight is going to be different, and the FW uptime is going to also depend a lot on the duration of the fight.

The cooldowns for this spec repeat very predictably every 120 seconds (dance, vanish, dance, repeat). With the 48% trinket it repeats every 81.08 seconds, and during that time you can have up to a 66.6% uptime on FW. In your case you had 4 periods, plus the opener, and a fraction of a period (35.68 seconds). Consider the opener, which is 13 seconds of 100% uptime, and the final amount of time. In your case it was 35.68 seconds, in which your FW uptime would have been 100%. So these two added times bumped the 66.6% up to 71.0%.

!Remember that all of this is excluding the 4piece bonus ambushes!

Sorry if this was too mathematical. I personally find it very interesting.

#10 Pjaddnave

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:21 AM

After i have made my opener and got everything going from start. Before FW is about to drop i try to have as much Energy as possible (not capping) and then i pop ShD. it feels like i can cap CP so fast and it also feels like it takes forver to Evisca and make another ambush. Im not sure how many ambushes i get during that period (dont even know how to look it up).

How do u guys do (exactly) after opener and you are about to reapply FW with either Vanish or ShD.

Also i would like to know if there is a good way too macro /garrotte /ambush i have a really hard time to get 2 ambushes from opener.

For a while ago i posted som logs to get some feedback. I wonder if somone would like to take e quicklook at the new ones to see if i have adapted more and what i can do better now.

Dashboard - 17-10 17:04 - total nutters - World of Logs (flex)

Dashboard - 17-10 20:01 - The Obsidian Order - World of Logs (normal)

#11 dommy

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:05 PM

I was curious as to whether others were using the 4pc set or if they were opting for some of the off-pieces.  I know there really is no right or wrong answer, but I wanted to field some opinions.

 

Personally, I've kept the 4pc so far only because the secondary stats on the off-pieces I have aren't super strong for sub. The proc is super incredible awesome when it procs, but personally I don't find the 4% proc reliable.  I won't see it for a number of pulls, and then all of a sudden it will proc three to four times over the course of a single encounter.  In looking over my logs, my 4pc set isn't proc'ing, on average, every 25th ambush, which has led me to this post to see what other sub rogues are seeing and doing.

 

Currently, my 4pc EP is around 1400 on Shadowcraft, and subbing in the off-pieces that I have do create a substantial dps increase of 2k, but I think I am going to be sticking with the 4pc for now because, to be perfectly honest, when it procs it feels like winning the lottery.



#12 jsz

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:15 PM

I made a quick WeakAura to monitor Subs major cooldowns so I could see at a quicker glance what was up and what would be ready soon. Just a little box that has icons for Shadow Dance, Shadow Blades, and Vanish. Semi-transparent icon  and timer when its on cooldown, and a full icon when it's ready to go. Preview here: http://i.imgur.com/3eqVs0v.jpg

dStanaGEQuXUiKGTjOzsiHMnLUTa3KqQXPs(MkCAI2je7fTBf2VsLFQQAykIFtvpdQAOQigSsvdNchKqsNIkv6yc5CQuwOIAPksTyvulhkpKkv9uWYOcpxQjQiPPkXKPOPl6IuP4QQiDzsxxsBeQ0wjKOnluBhQ4Jksmnv5Zq67eIhtWHvYOjuJxLQUevk5wujxtPCEQO)QQmkQuQxRsLzelewSWKqtWHOWecbemjyYcH7)JJBnjUHr3C8cdddp2MGpmkKXUExeC(hh3AsCDfE5y7iCsy4TjVjH4VXyxVncykQ0pkonucOy(QbHwTXN4LJKW8FP8lArr3GBHGEVXAyQMCMWOguWKOOkwtKicstct7rR6U9q9mbRFzYcbmVvzHqq1MswyYKjtccSqKiwiC)FCCRjX11MJJJWNJBoUEoCClYbJD9cj05s4U(eVCKeM)lLFrtatrL(rXPHsqk4heC(hh3AsCD92oWFl8n5iC7AYv4JXUEBeg1GcMefvXAIerqAsaeVm9ISB)uxdbD3(P1LPtcIintXe5DriXKOOkglesNgkHoxzTjO4OJKGOkKs)y3(t71zRsqO2Pp4tS0ujKYa1KqT1V2qTwKvGYzcTHATiRaLiBrhr4juB9RoKjNjuhko6ijSQPNjHARfV3MsdEMGyvIkojY7IqDKysuufJfcTHATiRaLiBrhr4zsW6xMSqO26NGD1nNjG5TklecQ2uYctMeQT(1gQaNjuB9tWhCELCMqBOcSqOLduRse8mjiyxDZcHwoqTkHP)NYPUHjtMeXbleU)poU1K46k8DG)6WXnhVd8hB4dzSR3fbRFzYcHARFc2v3CMaM3QSqiOAtjlmzsO26xBOcCMqT1pbFW5vYzcTHkWcHwoqTkrWZKGGD1nleA5a1QeM(FkN6gMmjuhjMefvXyHqBOwlYkqjsKJO3retco)JJBnjUUEBh4Vf(MCeUDn5k8XyxVncstcG4LPxKD7NTltT3TFADz6KqIjrrvmwiKonucDUYAtqXrhjbrviL(XU9N2RZwLGqTtFWNyPPsiLbQjHARFTHATiRaLZeQdfhDKew10tO26xDitotOnuRfzfOejYr07iIjbrKMPyI8UimQbfmjkQI1ejIqT1I3BtPbptqSkrfNe5DratrL(rXPHsqk4he6CjCxFIxoscZ)LYVOzse8Sq4()44wtI7179IcX)MeD7a)r4eg76DrOZLWD9jE5ijm)xk)IMqDKysuufJfcTHATiRaLirxBHmj48poU1K466TDG)w4HJBhxtcXJ)GXUEBeg1GcMefvXAIerqAsquUgYw8U9tRltNesmjkQIXcH0PHsOZvwBcko6ijiQcP0p2T)0ED2QeeQD6d(elnvcPmqnjuB9RnuRfzfOCMqBOwlYkqjs01wiHARF1Hm5mH6qXrhjHvn9mjiI0mftK3fHARfV3MsdEMGyvIkojY7IaMIk9JItdLGuWpiy9ltwiuB9tWU6MZeW8wLfcbvBkzHjtc1w)AdvGZeQT(j4doVsotOnubwi0YbQvjcEMeeSRUzHqlhOwLW0)t5u3WKjtI8yHW9)XXTMexxBooocFoU5465WXTihm21lKqDKysuufJfcTHATiRaLiBrhr4zsO2AX7TP0GNjKysuufJfcPtdLqNRS2euC0rsW9EV10lYy3(tW8OyA37272GHATUlHARFTHATiRaLZeQdfhDKew10tO26xDitotOnuRfzfOezl6icpbHAN(GpXstLqkdutMeeRsuXjrExeS(LjleQT(jyxDZzcyERYcHGQnLSWKjHARFTHkWzcTHkWcHwoqTkrWZKqT1pbFW5vYzcc2v3SqOLduRsy6)PCQByYKqSFKG0DuIe9iykBd7YjKlH7AcULbbmfv6hfNgkbPGFqqW7TMErg8mbbV1JXcrEe3TJWx4Kd83ErxBoIczSRThtcstcG4LPxKD7N6AiO727(PsqePzkMiVlco)JJBnjUUEBh4Vf(MCeUDn5k8XyxVncYbokwRCMWOguWKOOkwtKicDUeURpXlhjH5)s5x0mjYgleU)poU1KiUCGNGZ)44wtIRR32b(BHVjhHBxtUcFm21BJqT1I3BtPbptiXKOOkglesNgkHoxzTjO4OJKG79ERPxKXU9NG5rX0U3T3Tbd1ADxcc1o9bFILMkHugOMeQT(1gQ1IScuotOnuRfzfOejYr07iIqT1V6qMCMqDO4OJKWQMEMeeRsuXjrExeS(LjleQT(jyxDZzcyERYcHGQnLSWKjHARFTHkWzc1w)e8bNxjNj0gQaleA5a1Qebptcc2v3SqOLduRsy6)PCQByYKqSFKG0DuIe9iykBd7YjKlH7AcULbbmfv6hfNgkbPGFqqW7TMErg8mbbV1JXcrEe3TJWx4Kd83ErxBoIczSRThtcstcG4LPxKD7NTltT3T39tLqDKysuufJfcTHATiRaLiroIEhrmjiI0mftK3fHrnOGjrrvSMireKdCuSw5mHoxc31N4LJKW8FP8lAMejKfc3)hh3Ase8tiuhjMefvXyHqBOwlYkqjs01witc1wlEVnLg8mHetIIQySqiDAOe6CL1MGIJoscU37TMErg72FcMhft7E3E3gmuR1DjuB9RnuRfzfOCMqDO4OJKWQMEc1w)QdzYzcTHATiRaLirxBHeeQD6d(elnvcPmqnzsqSkrfNe5DrW6xMSqO26NGD1nNjG5TklecQ2uYctMeQT(1gQaNj0gQaleA5a1Qebptc1w)e8bNxjNjiyxDZcHwoqTkHP)NYPUHjtcX(rcs3rjs0JGPSnSlNqUeURj4wgeWuuPFuCAOeKc(bbbV3A6fzWZeKMeeLRHSfVBV7NkbbV1JXcrEe3TJWx4Kd83ErxBoIczSRThtcIintXe5DrW5FCCRjX11B7a)TW3KJWTRjxHpg76TrqoWrXALZeg1GcMefvXAIerOZLWD9jE5ijm)xk)IMjtc4qKOx0eMKa

The WeakAuras themselves are pretty straightforward and easy to modify or add other cooldowns, such as Prep. I left it out purely due to space constraints on my UI.



#13 alaxel

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 01:30 PM

Hi guys. This is my first post on Elitist jerks, and I've got many things Id like answered. Actually maybe not as much answered as rather discussed since I see so much information on different forums that sometimes even disagree with one another completely.  :P

 

But yes, do we really have the opener set in stone yet?

 

Personally I'm still not even sure what to do, however my opener is really not like what you're describing and atleast from my experience ive gotten higher numbers this way. 

 

Basically, the problems I have is understanding how shadowblades, shadow dance, and find weakness interacts with eachother. For example, everyone says that its better to dance with blades always. But how the hell does that make sense? Backstab is 35 energy and Ambush is 40 energy. Since blades give +1 combo point per builder, wouldnt it be slightly more beneficial to use blades outside of shadow dance?

 

Also the matter of having shadow blades active when find weakness is active or not. According to shadowcraft its a dps loss to use blades on find weakness but its a gain to use it in shadow dance? Can someone help me and explain how that would make sense. From what I can understand and would assume myself would be that the opposite is the best. My opener right now that has produced the highest numbers is:

 

Prep slice -> Shadow blades -> Ambush -> Hemo -> backstab for 10 sec until FW drops, Shadow dance -> ambushes -> Vanish (Prep immediately) -> Ambush -> Vanish again when FW drops -> now its been about 40-42 seconds so AoC Dance is up again -> Dance ambush spam.

 

This is basically 100% uptime on FW for the first 50-55 seconds.

 

The other would be to dance and blades immediately in the pull which might give a bit higher burst but its gonna drop down really fast right after blades and dance are running out. With my opener I managed 298k on juggernaut (normal) which was at the time 9k above my ShC simulation. After looking at Skada afterwards I noticed that my evis was top dmg with an average crit of 70%. Basically it meant that my dps was a bit skewed because I had lucky crits on evis, and evis should be 2nd or 3rd of my dmg with a haste build.

 

Also, I thought they had fixed the bug with glyph of vanish and subterfuge, is it still active as of 5.4? For sure? I remember testing it when it was stated to be fixed in the patch notes sometime between 5.2 and 5.3 and I didnt get it to work anymore.

 

Final note, im using shadow focus sometimes and honestly, I havent seen it to really be a loss in dps. The burst numbers are way higher with shadow focus that with subterfuge, and Backstab at 35e has higher dpe than 60e Ambush. Are those 3 seconds of master of subtlety+FW really worth it? Depending on ilvl AoC, you have to wait a few extra seconds for FW to run out before you pop dance when using subterfuge, because of the way cooldowns/FW line up during the first 50-60 seconds of a pull. 

 

THat's it for me now, and yeah, I apologize if its a bit cluttered but I just had to get all things down before going to work!

 

ps: isnt head from immerseus better than head from garrosh? haste+crit > haste+mastery eh?


Edited by alaxel, 27 October 2013 - 01:56 PM.


#14 Hellavor

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:39 AM

Also the matter of having shadow blades active when find weakness is active or not. According to shadowcraft its a dps loss to use blades on find weakness but its a gain to use it in shadow dance? Can someone help me and explain how that would make sense. From what I can understand and would assume myself would be that the opposite is the best.

 

I don't really play sub (though I'll probably drop combat to break it back out in a few days again) but I'm pretty sure this is because Shadow Blades converts all your autos to shadow damage, which inherently bypasses armor. Therefore, you're wasting that armor penetration from Find Weakness which you could use outside of shadow blades and still get the full amount.



#15 alaxel

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:52 AM

yes exactly my point. having shadow dance equals shadowdance+FW so how it can be a gain in one and a loss in the other is what im coming at



#16 wollro

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:51 PM

I must be missing something.  If you can't open with Garrote, why wouldn't you open with Hemo and then do both ambushes?  Then both ambushes benefit from Sanguinary Veins.  



#17 Jurugar

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:54 PM

Hi guys. This is my first post on Elitist jerks, and I've got many things Id like answered. Actually maybe not as much answered as rather discussed since I see so much information on different forums that sometimes even disagree with one another completely.  :P

 

But yes, do we really have the opener set in stone yet?

 

Personally I'm still not even sure what to do, however my opener is really not like what you're describing and atleast from my experience ive gotten higher numbers this way. 

 

Basically, the problems I have is understanding how shadowblades, shadow dance, and find weakness interacts with eachother. For example, everyone says that its better to dance with blades always. But how the hell does that make sense? Backstab is 35 energy and Ambush is 40 energy. Since blades give +1 combo point per builder, wouldnt it be slightly more beneficial to use blades outside of shadow dance?

 

Also the matter of having shadow blades active when find weakness is active or not. According to shadowcraft its a dps loss to use blades on find weakness but its a gain to use it in shadow dance? Can someone help me and explain how that would make sense. From what I can understand and would assume myself would be that the opposite is the best. My opener right now that has produced the highest numbers is:

 

Prep slice -> Shadow blades -> Ambush -> Hemo -> backstab for 10 sec until FW drops, Shadow dance -> ambushes -> Vanish (Prep immediately) -> Ambush -> Vanish again when FW drops -> now its been about 40-42 seconds so AoC Dance is up again -> Dance ambush spam.

 

This is basically 100% uptime on FW for the first 50-55 seconds.

 

The other would be to dance and blades immediately in the pull which might give a bit higher burst but its gonna drop down really fast right after blades and dance are running out. With my opener I managed 298k on juggernaut (normal) which was at the time 9k above my ShC simulation. After looking at Skada afterwards I noticed that my evis was top dmg with an average crit of 70%. Basically it meant that my dps was a bit skewed because I had lucky crits on evis, and evis should be 2nd or 3rd of my dmg with a haste build.

 

Also, I thought they had fixed the bug with glyph of vanish and subterfuge, is it still active as of 5.4? For sure? I remember testing it when it was stated to be fixed in the patch notes sometime between 5.2 and 5.3 and I didnt get it to work anymore.

 

Final note, im using shadow focus sometimes and honestly, I havent seen it to really be a loss in dps. The burst numbers are way higher with shadow focus that with subterfuge, and Backstab at 35e has higher dpe than 60e Ambush. Are those 3 seconds of master of subtlety+FW really worth it? Depending on ilvl AoC, you have to wait a few extra seconds for FW to run out before you pop dance when using subterfuge, because of the way cooldowns/FW line up during the first 50-60 seconds of a pull. 

 

THat's it for me now, and yeah, I apologize if its a bit cluttered but I just had to get all things down before going to work!

 

ps: isnt head from immerseus better than head from garrosh? haste+crit > haste+mastery eh?

 

As I wrote in the guide, Shadow Blades is a much less significant cooldown than Shadow Dance is. If your only goal was to get the most benefit out of Shadow Blades, then you would wait/plan out a lull in your Find Weakness uptime and use it then - but that would mean waiting 1min+ before using it, effectively increasing its cooldown by upwards of 50% just to try and get the optimal usage out of it. The way you have it right now, you are actually delaying Shadow Dance during your highest DPS phase of the entire fight - the opening ~20-30 seconds, when you are virtually guaranteed a perfect storm of Bloodlust, double trinket procs, double weapon procs, and your pre-pot. Using Shadow Blades and Shadow Dance together in your opener will net you slightly fewer combo points in the aggregate, but the combo points you do get will all be fed into more supercharged Ruptures and Eviscerates because Ambush will give 2+1 combo points for 40 energy, vs Backstab giving 1+1 per 35 - your % increase in CP generation may be less, but your CP per GCD during this critial phase of the fight will be almost 50% higher, essentially leading to ~45%+ more finishers with all your bells and whistles (not quite 50% because Ambush is 40 energy vs Backstab 35). And that's not even taking into account how much more damage double trinket Ambushes do than double trinket Backstabs.

 

In my opener I would wait for the Subterfuge buff to wear off before I would use Shadow Dance, so that I'm not wasting the use of any Ambushes from Subterfuge while still catching some of the Master of Subtlety buff on my Shadow Dance. You could argue that my opener I'm wasting Find Weakness using Shadow Dance then, but part of the complexity of Subtlety is that many of your decisions are situational; maximizing Find Weakness uptime is critically important, but a rotation that focuses solely on getting as high a % uptime on it as possible will lose to one that involves making dynamic decisions during the fight based on buffs and procs. I cant comment on how much damage you should be doing without getting a look at your gear and/or logs, although such a high Eviscerate crit chance is certainly unusual and probably bumped your DPS up by 20-30k at least. Reaching/beating your Shadowcraft simulated DPS is something you should be doing if you've mastered the spec anyway, depending on the fight, of course; I got several top 5 Subtlety ranks on the 3 patchwerk normals (Juggernaut, Malkorok, Siegecrafter) before my hiatus about a month ago despite being sub 560 ilvl, because I understood the spec fairly well at a time when it was just gaining popularity.

 

As for Shadow Focus, Subterfuge is just across the board better. With Shadow Focus, you get 1 Ambush for a 45 energy discount. With Subterfuge, you get 3 extra seconds of Master of Subtlety during your opener/whenever you vanish, plus the additional Ambushes you can now cast out of stealth can extend Find Weakness by upwards of 6 seconds per vanish.


Edited by Jurugar, 28 October 2013 - 05:55 PM.


#18 Queldommage

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:09 PM

Just to add to the opener variety, my opener goes as follows:

 

Prepot macro ( listed below ), Premed - Garrote - Ambush - Slice - 5 combo rupture - Shadow Blades

 

#showtooltip Virmens Bite

/cast Virmens Bite

/cast Stealth

 

This is quite possible not the best way to open, but my raid team doesnt always allow enough time for the in-out-in opener.


Edited by Queldommage, 29 October 2013 - 01:23 PM.


#19 Aceydubs

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:00 PM

Just to add to the opener variety, my opener goes as follows:

 

Prepot macro ( listed below ), Premed - Garrote - Ambush - Slice - 5 combo rupture - Shadow Blades

 

#showtooltip Virmens Bite

/cast Virmens Bite

/cast Stealth

 

This is quite possible not the best way to open, but my raid team doesnt always allow enough time for the in-out-in opener.

 

Can someone confirm/deny with a reference, if possible, that it's better to prioritize Rup > SnD?



#20 Jurugar

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:43 PM

Can someone confirm/deny with a reference, if possible, that it's better to prioritize Rup > SnD?

 

You want to prioritize Slice and Dice because Energetic Recovery is your main form of energy regeneration, and also losing out on a few auto attacks from losing the ~50% attack speed increase (especially with the spec's high uptime of Find Weakness, giving the auto attacks 100% armor penetration) can more than make up for losing a couple ticks of Rupture. Of course that's assuming you still have Sanguinary Vein up - if necessary, you can use a low CP slice and dice and just have to refresh it sooner.

 

On an unrelated note, can someone who's good at the new website format help me figure out what's wrong with how I set up the table at the start? That huge blank space before the gear list shouldn't be there =/






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