Jump to content


Photo

Warlords of Draenor paladin discussion

Warlords Draenor paladin talents stats

  • Please log in to reply
76 replies to this topic

#1 Charybdis

Charybdis

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 291 posts

Posted 01 December 2013 - 10:45 PM

Updated as of 16 August 2014.

 

WoD is changing up stats as well as talents and very likely other abilities so a thread to consolidate our thoughts on all that would probably be quite useful until the beta comes up and we can do more specific work for each spec.

 

Gear changes are summarized:

 

No more expertise, hit, dodge, or parry.  All spells and ranged abilities will have the necessary hit chance to always hit a mob 3 or less levels higher than the character.  Melee DPS will always hit a mob from behind, and tanks will have the needed "expertise" through spec abilities to ignore an boss's parry.

 

Reforging is gone.

 

Extra secondary stats are multistrike and versatility.  The previous amplify and readiness stats were too complex to balance properly according to Blizzard and hence scrapped.

 

For armor pieces (helms, shoulders, etc) the item’s primary stat will change based on spec.  Wearing a plate item while specced as holy will give it intellect, while prot and ret will have strength on the armor instead.  Cloaks, necklaces, rings, trinkets, and weapons will not change any stats based on spec.

Spirit and bonus armor will not appear on armor pieces but can appear on cloaks, rings, etc. as secondary stats.

 

The word on tier items so far is they’ll also switch primary stats as well as the tier bonus depending on spec, but won’t switch secondary stats.  This might be a problem since each spec will almost certainly value each stat differently so having the same stats between specs could be annoying given the number of combinations of secondary stats available now.

 

Vengeance is being renamed to "Resolve" and will boost defensive abilities directly instead of boosting AP.  Tanks will now do roughly 75% of a pure DPS spec's damage once tuning is done properly.  It currently isn't done right, if anyone is wondering.

 

Resolve:  Increases your healing and absorption done to yourself, based on Stamina and damage taken (before avoidance and mitigation) in the last 10 seconds.

 

 

New secondary stats:

 

Amplify is no longer a secondary stat, but might appear on specialized gear like trinkets if Blizzard wants it to again.

 

Multistrike was clarified by Celestalon to be: “X% Multistrike means: Each ability has two separate (X/2)% chances to hit each target an additional time for 30% damage.”  I haven’t seen further clarification on this such as whether it’s possible to have a double multistrike since there are two chances to proc.  Celestalon also said that multistrikes (and cleaves) are not dependent on the damage or healing of the ability that triggered them, so there won’t effectively be “double crits.”  However, multistrikes (and cleaves) can crit on their own.

 

Multistrike notes:  Blizzard changed it to simply be X% to get one or two hits, so it's capped at a more intuitive 100% instead of 200%.  The ability that lets Prot benefit defensively from multistrike is Shining Protector.  Some of our self heals benefit from MS as well, and those in turn can trigger Shining Protector last I heard.  Ours is the only multistrike tank defense ability that is dependent on others, so it's a double-edged sword in that a good team can perhaps boost us but at the same time a bad one can screw us, and it's harder to simulate the effects.

 

Readiness is no longer a secondary stat, but might appear on specialized gear like trinkets if Blizzard wants it to again.

 

Versatility simply boosts damage, healing, and absorbs by X% and reduces all (hopefully all anyway) damage taken by .X%.  Ret has a "new" ability called Sanctity Aura which boosts Versatility for all allies within 100 yards. DPS DKs, all Druids, and DPS Warriors also bring the buff as well as a few Hunter pet families.

 

Bonus Armor can be found on non-armor items like rings and cloaks, and will only work for Prot.  Besides boosting armor, it also boosts attack power by the same amount as armor (so 100 bonus armor = 100 attack power)

 

Crit is staying the same for Holy and Ret, but for Prot there's a "new" ability called Riposte that grants Parry rating equal to Crit rating from gear.

 

 

Atunements:

Each spec gets a secondary stat attunement that boosts the stat gain by 5%.  For example, normally Holy would get 1% crit from 110 rating but thanks to the attunement they get 1.05% crit from the 110 rating points.

 

The attunements for paladins are:

Holy: Crit

Prot: Haste

Ret: Mastery

 

 

At level 100, the ratings conversions for each secondary stat are as follows:

 

1% crit = 110 rating

1% haste = 80 rating

1 mastery point = 110 rating

1% multi = 132 rating (used to be 66, but Blizzard changed MS to be more intuitive)

1% vers = 130 rating

1% PVP power = 49 rating

 

Additionally, at level 100 1 point of stamina grants 60 base hit points.

 

 

Regarding talents:

The level 100 talents have all been modified or even replaced since Blizzcon.  Here's an overview of the current ones:

 

Holy:

Beacon of Faith: Gain a second Beacon of Light.  Previously wasn't a separate button on its own, but Blizzard changed it because having the Beacon leapfrog was "annoying as hell" as several players including myself have roughly put it.

 

Beacon of Insight: Place a beacon on a target and they will get a 30% boost to the next single target heal you cast on them.  When they reach full health or you complete the cast that is boosted by 30%, the beacon switches to the most wounded ally in 40 yards.

 

Saved by the Light: When you or your Beacon of Light target drop below 30% health, this talent generates an absorb shield equal to 30% of the target's health on them for the next 10 seconds.  You can't shield a person this way more than once per minute.

 

 

Prot:

Empowered Seals:  Using Judgment while also using a certain Seal will give you different benefits.  Justice boosts speed by 20% for 20 seconds.  Insight heals you for 1% of your maximum health every 2 seconds for 20 seconds.  Righteousness increases haste by 10% for 20 seconds.  Truth increases attack power by 15% for 20 seconds.

 

Seraphim: Boost your Bonus Armor, Crit, Haste, Mastery, Multistrike, and Versatility by 1500 each for 15 seconds.  Costs 5 Holy Power to use and has a 30 second cooldown.

 

Holy Shield:  Increases block chance by 10%, allows you to block spells (likely only some spells), and when you block you deal 50% of your attack power as Holy damage to your attacker.

 

 

Ret:

Empowered Seals:  Same talent as Prot's above.

 

Seraphim:  Same talent as Prot's above.

 

Final Verdict:  Replaces Templar's Verdict.  Consumes 3 Holy Power to deal 280% weapon damage as Holy damage.  Also increases the damage and radius of your next Divine Storm by 100%.


Edited by Charybdis, 16 August 2014 - 10:43 PM.


#2 Teleros

Teleros

    Scarab Lord

  • Members
  • 126 posts
  • LocationUnited Kingdom

Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:15 PM

All this from a Ret perspective BTW. Anyway...

 

First off, gear changes... I'm not really sure I like the removal of hit & expertise - I always felt that having a couple of "must-get" goals was a good thing when gearing up. That said, with the changes to reforging, gemming etc I suppose it's probably inevitable. I do like the addition of stats like Amplify & Readiness though - assuming nothing much changes for Ret stat weights it should be interesting to see where we end up. The danger IMHO is that Ret becomes even more bursty in PvP - stack amp & crit for big numbers, or readiness & haste and pop your CDs a lot more often.

 

As far as talents go, I'm definitely unimpressed with Seal of Faith: 30% less damage (on top of no seal damage & censure) is quite a loss for some additional healing on your next one heal. Obviously with no cap to speak of it'll make EF very powerful - but only until a dispel goes out. I can see Holy pallies liking it if they want to get in huge numbers or just some DPS (and shake up their routine etc), or Prot for fights where tank healing is a must (and also where tank TPS / DPS is NOT so important)... for Ret though, I guess it may have some use in PvP or when soloing stuff (inc questing perhaps), but even then I'd have thought the lost damage will outweigh the healing. Not sure it's the go-to talent for any spec though.

 

One alternative: wouldn't it be fun to see each spec getting a different seal instead of Seal of Faith? Holy could get Seal of Faith (although I still think it'd need work), Prot could perhaps get a Seal that heals them based on the damage it does, and Ret could see the return of Seal of Blood / the Martyr. Ret theorycrafting is then a choice between 3 talents that give you more damage, and Prot & Holy get similar choices.

 

For The Light Within & Divine Conviction IMHO it just comes down to the theorycrafters. If +10% AP or +10% attack speed (not haste I guess) is better than a 250% Holy weapon damage TV we'll go for TLW, else we'll go for DC (DC looks like the default choice for PvP too). One point to bear in mind with DC is that it only does 250% weapon damage, as opposed to "275% +X" that TV (including the T15 set bonus TV) does.

 

TLW I'd guess will be the Ret L100 AoE talent - DC won't be much use in AoE fights if you're using Divine Storm over TV anyway, so pick TLW and (maybe) judge with SoT then swap to SoR without judging to gain ~18.5secs of +10% AP for all your cleave damage. For Prot... AFAIK most Prot pallies use SoI, so I'm not sure they'll see much difference in TLW, but it should be pretty good for Holy (although I do think that re-casting Bacon of Light will mean you lose it on the first target).

 

DC is probably the default choice for Ret - more Holy damage is always nice, and most fights are largely single-target affairs. I'd guess it as also the standard choice for Prot - more mitigation and DPS (although if the damage doesn't scale with anything it'll be a lot less appealing). I'd have thought that TLW the better choice for Holy - ie you get more flexibility with healing a group with an extra BoL than you do with an extra uncontrolled (albeit powerful) shield on one person. A 30% max health shield is nice on DPS or healers, but given how much tanks can be hit for these days it seems lacklustre.


Clear ether!


#3 Charybdis

Charybdis

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 291 posts

Posted 02 December 2013 - 02:37 PM

For The Light Within & Divine Conviction IMHO it just comes down to the theorycrafters. If +10% AP or +10% attack speed (not haste I guess) is better than a 250% Holy weapon damage TV we'll go for TLW, else we'll go for DC (DC looks like the default choice for PvP too). One point to bear in mind with DC is that it only does 250% weapon damage, as opposed to "275% +X" that TV (including the T15 set bonus TV) does.

 

 

 

 

Keep in mind that 250% is pure holy damage unaffected by armor whereas the 275% is physical damage and thus lowered by the target's armor.  That 250% will also be fully boosted by Inq, so it's more like 325%.

 

And now we see if quoting works better than it looks like it might...

 

Edit: Nope.  Have to add the quote tags.

 

But yes, a 30% of life shield on the tank isn't going to do much with the way tank damage has been going.  Having a second BoL target would be more throughput and more versatile.


Edited by Charybdis, 02 December 2013 - 04:10 PM.


#4 Teleros

Teleros

    Scarab Lord

  • Members
  • 126 posts
  • LocationUnited Kingdom

Posted 03 December 2013 - 10:49 AM

Keep in mind that 250% is pure holy damage unaffected by armor whereas the 275% is physical damage and thus lowered by the target's armor.  That 250% will also be fully boosted by Inq, so it's more like 325%.

True, though assuming Blizz get to tweaking those TLW numbers, it'll still come down to which one SimCraft says is better this tier or w/e.


Clear ether!


#5 Exemplar

Exemplar

    The One-Eyed Man

  • • Guide Author
  • 1824 posts

Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:22 PM

DPS-impacting talents remain boring.  As much as Blizz claimed (before MoP launch) that they couldn't be theorycrafted and the community loved them - they can/are easily theorycrafted.  In general one is decidedly better, at best you have talent A for one situation and talent B for another.

 

It's the non-DPS-impacting talents that are, to me, interesting.  There's more individual choice, as a personal 'best' can be decided on playstyle and preference.

 

MoP Debuffed armour is about 32%.  So your 275% TV becomes 187% physical damage, while 250% increased by 30% Inquisition is 325% magic damage.  Then remember Mastery modifying larger number means larger Hand of Light.  It'll be a relatively easy straight-up comparison of that damage vs 10% passive AP boost (or some crazy seal twisting paradigm).

 

I do worry that SoR will wind up as shafted as it has been this X-pac.  SoR is currently useless except on extremely high quantity of adds.  If TLW is useful, you're now balancing quantity of adds + attack speed vs DoT and AP.  If you need extreme outlier conditions (a dozen mobs sharing healthpool that are all in range to be beat upon for 6 hours straight!) for one seal to pull ahead, it becomes no contest.  DS vs TV is/was much better tuned.  I'd lobby that if seals are badly balanced, remove them as part of ability bloat cleanup.

 

I love removal of Hit and Expertise.  Every tier either had too few items with one/both, or too many.  Working to hit a hard cap that's out of reach is semi-fun, but trying to reduce overage since random loot remains random is un-fun.  This always becomes worse towards end of X-pac due to stat inflation.

 

I really like the added variety in secondary stats.  Even with reforge Crit, Haste, and Mastery variance seemed pretty blase.  Two characters in roughly the same level of gear can be expected to be roughly equivalent.  I expect there to be no clearcut "haste is always the best" with this setup - too many synergies.  That sounds like a good thing.  Individuals can and will be individual.  Also seeking a BiS may be counterproductive - having 14 BiS items equipped may be worse than some other configuration of gear you own, because of how 2 missing items fit into place.

 

Downside - it's going to be that much harder to balance classes.  Scaling is always an issue, so expect at least a few classes to receive buffs/nerfs every tier to bring everyone back to rough equivalence.

 

P.S. Prot Seal of Faith vs Divine Conviction is ridiculous.  30% damage reduction (SoF) vs 10% greater chance to block (DC).  If a block was suddenly 100% of all damage (including magic), it would still only be 1/3 as effective as SoF.  If that SoF goes in unchanged, every other tank class is going to complain (with good reason - unless they have similar must-have talents).


Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#6 TerellinMisha

TerellinMisha

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:18 PM

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that the Seal of Faith 30% damage reduction is relevant to damage output, not damage taken (since it's coupled with the ret one). Presumably to reduce the amount of healing that could go out since the damage to healing conversion with Faith looks like it may be weird.



#7 Teleros

Teleros

    Scarab Lord

  • Members
  • 126 posts
  • LocationUnited Kingdom

Posted 10 December 2013 - 02:27 PM

I do worry that SoR will wind up as shafted as it has been this X-pac.  SoR is currently useless except on extremely high quantity of adds.  If TLW is useful, you're now balancing quantity of adds + attack speed vs DoT and AP.  If you need extreme outlier conditions (a dozen mobs sharing healthpool that are all in range to be beat upon for 6 hours straight!) for one seal to pull ahead, it becomes no contest.  DS vs TV is/was much better tuned.  I'd lobby that if seals are badly balanced, remove them as part of ability bloat cleanup.

Hmm. SoR is 9% WD, vs SoT's 12% + Censure... I really don't see why they couldn't raise SoR damage to 12% as well, making it a straight choice between cleave or DoT. Could also allow Censure to only be on one target at a time if you really wanted to force a seal swap for AoE & single target combat.

 

I DO think that WoD would be a good time to get rid of SoJ though (although you'd need a replacement snare mechanic I think; some Rets use SoJ over SoT in arena). That would leave us with a healing, single-target, and cleave seal - seems like a nice combination to me.

 

P.S. Prot Seal of Faith vs Divine Conviction is ridiculous.  30% damage reduction (SoF) vs 10% greater chance to block (DC).  If a block was suddenly 100% of all damage (including magic), it would still only be 1/3 as effective as SoF.  If that SoF goes in unchanged, every other tank class is going to complain (with good reason - unless they have similar must-have talents).

Yeah it's the Prot pally doing 30% less damage, not the mob :) . Your version would of course be completely OP, but the way it is / was at BlizzCon, I can only see SoF being taken by tankadins if they need a ton of self-cast EF healing or similar, because 30% less damage is a hell of a downside.


Clear ether!


#8 Tobrexa

Tobrexa

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 91 posts

Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:02 PM

I concur with Teleros on the topic of seals:

I would really like to see only one seal per spec, as swapping is really not an interesting choice as of right now, and I'm not a fan of seal twisting as the first talent seems to impose.

Regarding Prot and Ret: Seal of Truth should be combined with Seal of Righteousness as to not cleave anymore but stack Censure on every Area-of-Effect spell (HotR and DS), perhaps somewhat as rogue Deadly Poison.

Seal of Insight should be holy-exclusive and in that case have perhaps an inbuilt atonement/fistweaving, but not necessarily.

Seal of Justice could possibly kept, as it is a niche seal for PvP but then again I'm not very happy with it as it is right now.

 

All this to express my discontent with two of the three talents, which seem as one way to enforce seal diversity or interest, but in my opinion the wrong direction.

 

The third talent is the most "interesting" one, by adding for ret the fan-favorite all-holy TV (although not very original, and probably the go-to choice for single-target dmg), for holy the interesting double-beacon, which seems to add interesting complexity to beacon-placement (which still has to be explored as it could be too complex), and for prot the return of the old holy shield, also a fondly remembered skill.


Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, by Spartan law, we lie.


#9 Teleros

Teleros

    Scarab Lord

  • Members
  • 126 posts
  • LocationUnited Kingdom

Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:24 PM

Regarding Prot and Ret: Seal of Truth should be combined with Seal of Righteousness as to not cleave anymore but stack Censure on every Area-of-Effect spell (HotR and DS), perhaps somewhat as rogue Deadly Poison.

That'd be a good idea in general I think - just have it apply its seal damage & Censure to all targets hit by HotR/DS and you no longer need to spend a valuable GCD. One of the problems with SoR I find is that it costs 2 GCDs to use it, and most waves of adds die pretty quickly, making the number of adds required to see a DPS increase from SoR yet higher.

 

 

Seal of Insight should be holy-exclusive and in that case have perhaps an inbuilt atonement/fistweaving, but not necessarily.

Hmm, Prot pallies tend to like using it, but as Blizz are talking about upgrading existing spells rather than adding new ones, it shouldn't be hard to implement healing through SoT as a unique buff for Prot. Then Holy can get its Atonement-equivalent as their SoI upgrade or something.


Clear ether!


#10 Exemplar

Exemplar

    The One-Eyed Man

  • • Guide Author
  • 1824 posts

Posted 11 December 2013 - 02:44 PM

I DO think that WoD would be a good time to get rid of SoJ though (although you'd need a replacement snare mechanic I think; some Rets use SoJ over SoT in arena).

 

Yeah it's the Prot pally doing 30% less damage, not the mob :) .

I'd vote drop SoJ.  No need for snare since there would be two speed-boost talents, although you'd have to shift The Light Within's boost off of Justice somewhere.  Perhaps return to separate 'Judgment of X' spells, that share a cooldown.  You can add/alter the Judgments via talent for interesting gameplay.  SoJ performing both snare and speed-boost on judge makes it seem ridiculous for closing.  But then, I'm still of the opinion that if we (and 2 other classes) need a whole tier of talents (first tier) for movement bonus and the majority of classes do not have such, then it's a sign our classes are deficient/broken on movement and need a solution, not using one of very few talents as a band-aid.

 

Removing all seals seems simplest - we didn't much miss auras.  Ret's passive 'seal' could DoT the active target and perform additional cleave to all non-CC targets in range.  Prot's could do something nifty, like reduce the next damage from its target by X% of damage inflicted.  Holy's seal could be the damage-becomes-single-use-spellpower like SoF.  Or, crazy suggestion, remove all the gimmicks and just put our damage/defense/healing into our active abilties.

 

On Seal of Faith for Prot - 30% less damage either will mean threat issues galore (thus useless talent) or completely ignorable for threat.  They're supposedly migrating Vengeance to mitigation/avoidance entirely, so Prot DPS would just be based on attacks.  Losing 30% on their total DPS won't hurt a raid much (unless Prot DPS is boosted enormously, which would cause PvP and world-at-large balance issues).
 

If SoF is not worth it to tanks, then they're somewhat railroaded to use Divine Conviction.  The Light Within's bonus damage seems ridiculous for a tank.  Let's say 10% AP is actually a full 10% greater DPS - if the difference between killing a boss or not is your tank doing 10% more damage, then your raid has more serious problems to resolve.  SoF's bonus to healing is probably greater than reduced physical damage from 10% block bonus, but that won't help the tank when ye olde sterotypical profanity screaming clueless raid leader boots them for being a 'bad tank cuz yr DPS suxx0r'.

 

Increasingly, to me, all talents seem 'meh' (including existing ones).  Double-beacon is neat, but DPS to heal is a gimmick (non-viable for a true healer due to GCD if offensive attacks used and cast times resetting autoattack), and auto-shield is uncontrollable (and probably insufficient).  Bonus block is pleasant, but passive (thus 'boring').  And DPS gets passive A or passive B.  I somewhat suspect changing seal will drop your judgment-buff from that seal - otherwise seal twisting becomes very attractive, something which would appear to punish the average player more than reward the high-end one.

 

There are too many no-brainer talents (or become such after theorycrafters can compare them) for every class.  And far too many of the remainder are 'blah, doesn't matter to my spec/play' (such as PvP-only or PvP-pointless talents).  Enormous amounts of homogenity, with a soupcon of 'it doesn't matter at all'.  I'm starting to feel that "Talents are the New Transmog"* - they make you look different, but don't affect gameplay (and lots of people happen to chose the same 'look', anyway).

 

Since this isn't just about talents, but WoD and Paladins in general:

Why do we still have glancing blows?  Casters have had full and partial resist removed for quite some time.  Hit/expertise is being removed.  Glancing blows are obsolete.  They should be removed.  If necessary mob armour could be tweaked a percent or two to keep melee vs ranged damage unchanged.  An x-pac (especially the one removing said hit and expertise) would be the perfect time to do so, since the damage of every attack of every class is going to be rebalanced anyhow.

 

* - All Rights Reserved, Patent Pending!


Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#11 Teleros

Teleros

    Scarab Lord

  • Members
  • 126 posts
  • LocationUnited Kingdom

Posted 12 December 2013 - 02:39 PM

But then, I'm still of the opinion that if we (and 2 other classes) need a whole tier of talents (first tier) for movement bonus and the majority of classes do not have such, then it's a sign our classes are deficient/broken on movement and need a solution, not using one of very few talents as a band-aid.

Don't get me started on that topic now :D . I'm still waiting for my Charge clone :P ...

 

Removing all seals seems simplest - we didn't much miss auras.  Ret's passive 'seal' could DoT the active target and perform additional cleave to all non-CC targets in range.  Prot's could do something nifty, like reduce the next damage from its target by X% of damage inflicted.  Holy's seal could be the damage-becomes-single-use-spellpower like SoF.  Or, crazy suggestion, remove all the gimmicks and just put our damage/defense/healing into our active abilties.

Not sure about removing all seals. They're a lot less fire-and-forget than auras were - or at least they can be, as they're personal buffs not group buffs. They're a nice way of switching "stances" I think, provided at least that each one has a meaningful role.

 

On Seal of Faith for Prot - 30% less damage either will mean threat issues galore (thus useless talent) or completely ignorable for threat.  They're supposedly migrating Vengeance to mitigation/avoidance entirely, so Prot DPS would just be based on attacks.  Losing 30% on their total DPS won't hurt a raid much (unless Prot DPS is boosted enormously, which would cause PvP and world-at-large balance issues).

Quite honestly I'd drop the damage reduction for Prot, and maybe even Ret too. Using SoF means no healing from SoI, nor damage from SoT / Censure / etc, which is surely enough of a DPS loss for building up Faith. Thus the Ret in arenas or w/e can pop SoF and kite when trained, instead of either hoping that SoI is enough (hah!) or trying to force his attackers on the defensive. But a 30% damage reduction on top of Resilience... oh boy.
 

There are too many no-brainer talents (or become such after theorycrafters can compare them) for every class.  And far too many of the remainder are 'blah, doesn't matter to my spec/play' (such as PvP-only or PvP-pointless talents).  Enormous amounts of homogenity, with a soupcon of 'it doesn't matter at all'.  I'm starting to feel that "Talents are the New Transmog"* - they make you look different, but don't affect gameplay (and lots of people happen to chose the same 'look', anyway).

That was always going to happen though: I think it's literally impossible for the WoW devs - or indeed any devs - to come up with equal, compelling choices for so many classes (let alone specs). It either comes down to numbers (HA > SW > DP with 4pc etc) or fight mechanics (pick SoL for Lei Shen in case you get Helm of Command, etc). The current system is merely an illusion of choice for the most part.

 

In fact, I think I would rather have the vanilla talent trees than the new system. Every level you get to choose where to put your new talent point (yay, I'm doing things!), and if the end result is just 2 or 3 different specs... how exactly is that different to what we get at the moment (albeit with more "choice")? By all means keep the MoP-style talents as cool extras (wow, L15, a new talent AND a feat to choose!), but let's not pretend that they've lead to an explosion of (good) builds.

 

Why do we still have glancing blows?  Casters have had full and partial resist removed for quite some time.  Hit/expertise is being removed.  Glancing blows are obsolete.  They should be removed.  If necessary mob armour could be tweaked a percent or two to keep melee vs ranged damage unchanged.  An x-pac (especially the one removing said hit and expertise) would be the perfect time to do so, since the damage of every attack of every class is going to be rebalanced anyhow.

Good idea.


Clear ether!


#12 Pdawg

Pdawg

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 61 posts

Posted 12 December 2013 - 11:05 PM

Removing all seals seems simplest - we didn't much miss auras.  Ret's passive 'seal' could DoT the active target and perform additional cleave to all non-CC targets in range.

 

I hope we never have a return of autocleaves.  Not being able to attack at all because your autocleave may hurt the raid is extremely frustrating.  As an example, I want to be able to kill banners and adds near General Nazgrim while he's in Defensive Stance, but I don't want to attack him or he'll gain rage.  Autocleaves are also frustrating on fights where stuff needs to die at the same time, such as Fallen Protectors, Mimiron, Freya.  Even cloak procs can easily wipe your guild on Garrosh.



#13 Teleros

Teleros

    Scarab Lord

  • Members
  • 126 posts
  • LocationUnited Kingdom

Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:16 PM

Many changes for the WoD alpha it seems. Going to do a quick run-down of the Ret stuff (because seriously, what other specs are there for real pallies?)...

 

Mechanics Changes

1. Item / stat squish.

2. Agility & Intellect no longer give critical hit chance for anything.

3. Everyone has 5% base crit chance.

4. Strength & Agility give 1 Attack Power, down from 2.

5. 3.5 Attack Power = +1 weapon DPS (previously - ie currently - 14 AP = +1 DPS).

6. All weapon damage values reduced by 20%.

7. All non-Str sources of AP reduced by 50%.

8. Critical hit bonus damage down to +50% from +100%.

9. AP/SP/weapon damage "now affect the entire healing or damage throughput of player spells".

10. Parry & Dodge from Agility & Strength reduced by 25%.

11. Hit & Expertise are gone, replaced on gear, gems etc with Crit, Haste, or Mastery.

12. Facing bosses or L73 mobs means you have a 3% chance to be parried (don't worry, not you tanks). Facing enemies >=4 levels higher will mean it's harder to beat them too.

13. Stronger health pool scaling from Stamina (roughly +100%), but healing hasn't kept pace (only +50%, or -25% for %-life-based heals). Intent is for people to be living longer at sub-100% values in combat.

14. Base Resilience reduced to 0%, Battle Fatigue removed.

15. Max mana doubled.

16. Consumables' health & mana regeneration effects doubled.

17. Mobs now do roughly double damage with both melee & ranged/spell attacks (some exceptions, of course).

18. Weakened Armour debuff is gone.

19. Professions no longer provide direct buffs to combat (eg Synapse Springs). Unknown what'll happen to gliders, nitro boosts etc at this time.

20. Miners & herbalists can mine any mineral node, but now yield is based on skill. So a L1 mining copper gets less copper than a L100 mining copper - but the L1 can now also mine L100 ores.

 

 

Spell Changes

1. Avenging Wrath is exclusive to Ret.

2. Guardian of Ancient Kings is exclusive to Prot.

3. Inquisition is gone.

4. Hand of Salvation is gone.

5. Blinding Light is gone.

6. Turn Evil has 1.8sec cast time, lasts 6 secs in PvP.

7. Repentance has 1.8sec cast time.

8. The Weakened Blows debuff is gone, affects Crusader Strike & Hammer of the Righteous.

9. Hammer of the Righteous now deals 50% weapon damage as physical to the main target, which is no longer hit by holy damage.

10. Cost of Redemption down to 4% mana, for easier ressing.

11. You will learn some glyphs automatically as you level.

12. Healing pots share a 60sec CD with Healthstones instead of DPS pots.

13. Execution Sentence does a big burst of healing initially, then gradually less & less healing. Damage model remains the same.

14. Eternal Flame does 100% of WoG's direct healing, but only 50% as much periodic healing.

15. Seals cost no mana.

16. Ret keeps instant-cast WoG & Eternal Flame, unlike Holy.

 

 

Level 100 Talents

1. Empowered Seals: Using judgements gives you a unique buff depending on the seal you have active. Justice = +10% movement speed for 20 secs; Insight = heal for 3% max health every 2 secs for 20 secs; Righteousness = +10% attack speed for 20 secs; Truth = +10% AP for 20 secs.

 

2. Seraphim: For 10 secs, you get +30% Crit Strike, Mastery, Haste, Multistrike, Bonus Armour from gear. Costs 5 Holy Power, 30sec CD.

 

3. Final Verdict: Replacement for Templar's Verdict, does 210% weapon damage as Holy.

 

 

Draenic Perks

Every level from 91 to 99 you'll get a random perk from this list handed out to you (ie instead of a new spell or w/e). The perks are based on specialisation, so Holy & Prot will get some different ones. At L100 of course, you get to pick a new talent instead.

 

1. Forbearance reduced by 30secs.

2. +10% magical damage reduction for Divine Protection.

3. +20% Flash of Light Healing.

4. Hand of Sacrifice CD reduced by 30 secs.

5. +20% Judgement damage.

6. +20% Crusader Strike damage.

7. +20% Censure damage.

8. +20% Exorcism damage.

9. Hammer of Wrath can be used on targets below 35% health.

 

 

Racial Changes

1. All those "+expertise/hit" racials are gone.

2. Blood Elves get +1% crit chance and Arcane Torrent now restores 1 Holy Power instead of mana.

3. Dwarves get +2% crit damage & healing. Stoneform now also removes magic & curse effects, and reduces damage by 10%. Still can't be used whilst CC'ed.

4. Humans get a bonus to any 2 secondary stats by an amount scaling with your level, eg Crit & Haste, or Crit & Mastery, etc. No changes to Every Man For Himself mentioned.

5. Tauren get +2% crit damage & healing. They also get bonus Stamina, which scales with character level.

 

 

First Thoughts

In short, I like these changes for Ret. I'm going to miss GoAK a bit, and I think the lack of Blinding Light is going to leave us a bit weak in the CC department, but the rest looks pretty good to me. I'm guessing that Final Verdict will be the go-to L100 talent, but haven't done any maths on it yet. I gather from both this & comments by Blizz that they're basically happy with how paladins in general have been in MoP, and thus we've got tweaks to look forwards to rather than major overhauls.


Edited by Teleros, 04 April 2014 - 01:17 PM.

Clear ether!


#14 Tobrexa

Tobrexa

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 91 posts

Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:27 AM

I still think that the Empowered Seals talent does not bring any interesting rotational changes to rettribution other than not one but at least two relatively short maintenance buffs.

I still can't wrap my head around the fact that they would let that go live on release in that form.

Holy wouldn't really care about any of those buffs, and Prot might be interested in the selfheal from Judgement of Insight.

 

Seraphim seemed nice at first, but it is yet another cooldown (here I thought they would try to tone them down)... And at that a difficult one to handle as well with 5! holy power to activate.

I thought they learned the lesson with Zeal (is that the correct name?) which required 3 HP to activate, and was also rather frustrating in that regard.

 

I stand by my opinion that the 3rd talent is perhaps the least imaginative but best thought out talent in that tier.

 

I like the rest of the patchnotes so far: pruning is good, cutting everything but the fun parts!

 

I only hope that Exorcism will regain and maintain an important place in a rotation till the last tier of that expansion.

 

Also, I still wish for another quality of life improvement, which would be either to give Hammer of the Righteous no target requirement (perhaps in letting it only deal the aoe portion of its damage and granting only HP if it hits a target) or increasing its range slightly (7-10yards) so that you can actually get it off in that pack of mobs where no one really sees where they are actually positioned.

I guess this would help prot more than ret, as they have to pick up adds fast. That little bit of time seems in that case more important than just lost damage.


Edited by Tobrexa, 05 April 2014 - 12:33 PM.

Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, by Spartan law, we lie.


#15 TerellinMisha

TerellinMisha

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:43 AM

Generally, abilities like exorcism that scale with AP rather than weapon damage will continue to fall by the wayside as damage from weapons increases. Shouldn't be as much of a concern with the squish, since the reasoning behind Exo falling off hard late in this expansion was the fact that we eschewed strength as ret and prioritized secondary stats, so AP didn't keep up with other factors. With the limited gem sockets we're expecting to have in WoD (based on the info Blizz has already put out), AP should be fairly consistently increasing with weapon damage, so Exo should continue to be competitive in our rotation later than it was in this expansion.



#16 Teleros

Teleros

    Scarab Lord

  • Members
  • 126 posts
  • LocationUnited Kingdom

Posted 05 April 2014 - 05:10 PM

Some more glyph changes / new glyphs from the alpha for Ret:

 

Glyph of the Liberator: 5sec CD reduction on HoF if you cast on others.

Glyph of Hand of Freedom: HoF immediately reduces the duration of all CC effects by 25%, and any more applied within 10secs also suffer the same 25% reduction.

Glyph of Judgement: +10 yards range for Judgement.

 

Nothing very interesting there for Rets - mostly PvP stuff really.


Clear ether!


#17 Exemplar

Exemplar

    The One-Eyed Man

  • • Guide Author
  • 1824 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:57 PM

I suspect we'll find that Empowered Seals is superior in low-damage weapon starting gear, then once your weapon damage reaches a ratio compared to your AP, Final Verdict steps ahead.  Possibly with fluctuations across tiers as your ratio wobbles.  Otherwise Final Verdict is likely to be sufficiently superior that the other talents get entirely neglected by Ret (i.e. bad design).

 

Seraphim is a thinly veiled reskin of the Cata 30-second version of Inquisition.  More HP cost and more bonus, but it's a talented maintenance buff.  10 seconds every 30?  Eats all 5 HP?  So you have to compare the boosts to 1.66 all Holy TV.  I seriously hope the math does not incline in its favour (it's entirely possible it could be the winner), because it's designed to be a pain in the ass and seems counter to their expressed desires (maintenance buffs = bad).

 

The perks are kinda bland.  20% bonus damage on our core HP generators, and effectively a 75% increase on HoW (moving from 20% usage to 35% usage is a lot more HoW).  I read this as randomized order buffing of the core spell - the same thing as the old model of providing new spell ranks as you level, just shouted out to sound new and fantastic.  Also if those +20%s are after AP then it breaks the 3.5->1 ratio.  In short, they're making their own job of ongoing balancing much harder than it needs to be.

 

I'm dancing in the streets at the removal of Inq.  The 60 second version is a joke to mid-to-high end players, and still a pain to the more casual (tracking duration without mods is ridiculously hard, with mods ridiculously easy).  Unfortunately this leaves the spec in a pretty bland "hit the highest damage-per-cast button off CD".  Hopefully the numbers tweaks will at least return AoW Exo back to jumping the queue and have us react to a proc to change.

 

My two big armchair quarterback suggestions would be to steal from Diablo - make a mechanic like "on 3rd use of this ability X happens", to give us something other than a GCD-locked spam-a-button class design, and that talents should drop the Starcraft 2 pick-one-of-three and move to the Diablo 3 pick-3-or-4-out-of-big-list.

 

P.S.  Curious how they're going to rework Sanctified Wrath for Prot and Holy.  Or have they not yet noticed that it won't function for those specs since only Ret has AW.


Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#18 Teleros

Teleros

    Scarab Lord

  • Members
  • 126 posts
  • LocationUnited Kingdom

Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:48 PM

Still an early alpha but I can't believe they'd leave Sanctified Wrath in there unchanged. No reason they couldn't adjust the name & details based on the spec though (Avenging Wrath for Ret, GoAK for Prot, etc).

 

I'm not sure the Diablo 3 model you suggest for talents would work though - it'd be a case of picking up a huge pile of +DPS and/or +burst talents (obv different priorities for Holy/Prot, but you get the idea), which seems to defeat the purpose (and is a real headache for PvP besides).

 

Agreed on what I'd like to see happen to Exo. Heck, they could keep the current Exo formulas in place so long as they buff them slightly each tier to account for the faster rise in weapon damage, and can then just recycle the earlier formulas each new expansion.

 

As for Seraphim, is it really that good potentially? It doesn't take into account any raid buffs, pots & flasks etc, so you're not going to get much crit chance from it for those 10 secs. We also don't know if it costs a GCD or not (though I'm guessing it will), or how it functions WRT +crit chance procs and the like.

 

Finally... yeah the perks are pretty bland, but it beats having even more ability bloat or absolutely nothing happening between 91 and 99. It's also handy for balancing purposes (Exorcism anyone?), and maybe even set bonuses etc. Separately, I agree that losing Inq makes the spec pretty simple to play again, but I think that's a small price to pay for losing a nuisance mechanic.

 

+ + +

 

What else... hmm. For quality of life purposes I wouldn't mind them letting us cast bubble without worrying about a GCD, and maybe some of our utility spells could go the same way (eg Hand spells, Emancipation, that kind of thing). Agree also with Tobrexa re Hammer of the Righteous - not being able to AoE on demand to pop rogues out of stealth etc is a pain, and also an in issue in PvE sometimes - remember a certain fight in ToES?

 

For the L100 talents I'd give up trying to make them too equal in terms of DPS - it ain't going to happen, as whatever your guide and/or SimCraft says is top DPS will be the one picked :P . Better I think to have a simple "best for DPS" choice, then make the other two interesting, whether for utility, or PvP or whatever - they don't win on pure DPS, but win on non-DPS mechanics.


Clear ether!


#19 Exemplar

Exemplar

    The One-Eyed Man

  • • Guide Author
  • 1824 posts

Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:57 PM

I'm not sure the Diablo 3 model you suggest for talents would work though - it'd be a case of picking up a huge pile of +DPS and/or +burst talents (obv different priorities for Holy/Prot, but you get the idea), which seems to defeat the purpose (and is a real headache for PvP besides).

 

As for Seraphim, is it really that good potentially? It doesn't take into account any raid buffs, pots & flasks etc, so you're not going to get much crit chance from it for those 10 secs. We also don't know if it costs a GCD or not (though I'm guessing it will), or how it functions WRT +crit chance procs and the like.

Changing to D3 style talents would require another rework.  Entire new list of talents that weren't active abilities and wouldn't be +X damage to +Y.  Maybe it wouldn't work (since in D3 talents both extra damage and for extra defense are useful to the same player, while in WoW the tank would want pure defensive and DPS pure throughput), but the concept sounds appealing - it would 'solve' the 'problem' of current (Paladin) talents where some tiers are PvP-only-useless-in-PvE and vice-versa.  It would possibly also work better with a class that has no CD filler attacks (D3 talent choice often inclines you to use certain skills and vice versa - not something at least Ret can control in WoW).

 

I'll still argue at least tier 1 talent needs to be replaced - if some classes need a talent for movement (Paladin included) and some classes are fine with no talent, then some classes are fundamentally broken.  No one should need a talent just to bring them up to par - much less half the classes.

 

Seraphim could be big.  Just think how big a swing AW can be.  +30% Crit Strike, Mastery, Haste, Multistrike doesn't equal a +everything buff, but it's still a large stat swing.  Especially when you pair it with AW at every opportunity.  I just hope it's not the winner - not only because it would eat into TV usage, but mostly because it requires the entire 5 HP.  We were granted the extra 2 maximum HP as a buffer, but it would be mandatory when that talent is selected.  Example: all the situations where Seraphim has a few seconds left on CD and you just hit 5 HP - you can use a TV, re-earn, and delay a Seraphim (bad), or you can sit on 5 and 'waste' generation of further HP (bad).  I'm terribly afraid they're going to tweak Seraphim's numbers until it's the 1-3%-ahead choice of the tier, since it would require the greatest micromanagement (I mean 'skill') to utilize.

 

I think it'd be more interesting to leverage the new stats.  Scrap Seraphim and give us something that temporarily boosts to something like Multistrike or Readiness.  Another possibility would be to boost one of the stats and add Lifesteal, Avoidance, or Speed during a window - something that you'd need to decide to use during a DPS burn phase or a keep-yourself-alive phase.

 

Still hopeful at least 2 L100 talents will flip-flop based on total AP and base weapon damage.  So there's no blanket winner, rather a winner based on your current gear that changes within each tier.

 

Not quite related - did a little research on multistrike.  Supposed to be two separate %/2 chances to duplicate the attack.  This means slim chance of triple-strike, higher chance of double-strike, highest chance of normal single strike.  A truly neat mechanic... until I wonder how the heck it can be PvP balanced.  How would folks feel if my all-holy TV suddenly triple-strikes?  Or a Chaos Bolt?  Can I have a side order of burst with my burst?  Yeah, it's RNG, and folks will probably have low total %, even if they stack as much as they can, but that somehow makes it worse when it inevitably happens.


Edited by Exemplar, 09 April 2014 - 12:58 PM.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#20 Thels

Thels

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 22 posts
  • LocationThe Netherlands

Posted 09 April 2014 - 03:11 PM

I'll still argue at least tier 1 talent needs to be replaced - if some classes need a talent for movement (Paladin included) and some classes are fine with no talent, then some classes are fundamentally broken.  No one should need a talent just to bring them up to par - much less half the classes.

 

I don't agree with you there. Classes as a whole, with talents and glyps included, are balanced against one another (or at least should be). It doesn't matter if class 1 has a built-in movement boost, and class 2 has to pick between 3 movement speed boost talents. They both end up with a movement speed boost. Class 1 might very well have a different row of talents that class 2 has built in, or is balanced around not having.

 

I honestly think it's more of an issue for, say, DKs, where taking the movement speed boost is coming at the cost of something else. All paladins have a movement speed boost. DKs that want to have a movement speed boost have to give up their snare or stun.

 

There was some more information shared by Celestalon and Zarhym, as they chatted with Convert to Raid and Final Boss. Depending on how you interpret the discussion, there's a chance that Devo Aura is gone entirely. Also, Wings might still come back for Prot and Holy, but perhaps not be called Avenging Wrath.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Warlords, Draenor, paladin, talents, stats

3 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 3 guests, 0 anonymous users