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Warlords Draenor paladin talents stats

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#21 Exemplar

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:31 PM

I don't agree with you there. Classes as a whole, with talents and glyps included, are balanced against one another (or at least should be). It doesn't matter if class 1 has a built-in movement boost, and class 2 has to pick between 3 movement speed boost talents. They both end up with a movement speed boost. Class 1 might very well have a different row of talents that class 2 has built in, or is balanced around not having.

It is entirely arguable - I don't even disagree with your analysis, it is to compensate for something baseline in others and they may have talents to compensate for something baseline the move-speed-talent-folks already have.  Mostly it's a scope thing.

 

If it was an isolated situation, I would not put forward my argument.  However, when at least 1/2 of all classes have a movement-speed-increasing talent (most of those an entire tier), then I see systemic issue.  One class would be flavour.  Half your classes is balance correction.  Reference all the tank homogenization they've felt necessary over the years (taunts, interrupts, threat modifiers, etc) in order to correct balance issues.

 

Additionally it overrides boot enchants.  Movement Speed on boots provides 7.5% speed increase which does not stack with things such as Feline Swiftness or Pursuit of Justice.  So now movement talents must balance against another class buffed by an enchant.  Either the talents balance against un-enchanted other classes, which means other classes gain an advantage once enchanted, or the talents balance against enchanted other classes, which means other classes are at a disadvantage unless enchanted.

 

It's entirely possible the movement talents put those classes to a relative advantage over classes without such talents.  It's not intended as a "buff us" argument, but as a "something is seriously flawed, not necessarily us, and we've had band aids for 2 years" argument.

 

On more productive topic:

If Devo Aura is dropped (seems likely), then paladins lose the last vestige of the aura system.  Auras being such a core flavour item of the Vanilla paladin, that seems to be prime material for generating a new talent (or tier).  Either CD (I could see Prot with something akin to a priest barrier or deathknight AMZ) or passive (effect X for us, and effect Y for everyone within 40 yds, where Y joins ranks with some other existing no-stack group buff).

 

The changes all seem rather straightforward, even streamlining.  Past X-pacs have seen many/most/all(?) classes with changing, evolving, or replacing abilities (Paladin examples include: Divine Storm, Templar's Verdict, Holy Power, Inquisition).  Barring values changes on every ability, there appears to be little to no actual gameplay change.  Again, ignoring value changes (more/less damage on ability A, CD tweak on ability B, or Draenic Perks), it's almost the change level of a tier patch.


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Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

#22 Teleros

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:21 AM

Not quite related - did a little research on multistrike.  Supposed to be two separate %/2 chances to duplicate the attack.  This means slim chance of triple-strike, higher chance of double-strike, highest chance of normal single strike.  A truly neat mechanic... until I wonder how the heck it can be PvP balanced.  How would folks feel if my all-holy TV suddenly triple-strikes?  Or a Chaos Bolt?  Can I have a side order of burst with my burst?  Yeah, it's RNG, and folks will probably have low total %, even if they stack as much as they can, but that somehow makes it worse when it inevitably happens.

 

I read for PvP it's supposed to be just a chance for a double-strike. So... less bursty, but still worrying. Somehow I doubt Blizz are going to be able to have health pools keep up with Chaos Bolt multi-strike burst in PvP :P .

 

 

On more productive topic:

If Devo Aura is dropped (seems likely), then paladins lose the last vestige of the aura system.  Auras being such a core flavour item of the Vanilla paladin, that seems to be prime material for generating a new talent (or tier).  Either CD (I could see Prot with something akin to a priest barrier or deathknight AMZ) or passive (effect X for us, and effect Y for everyone within 40 yds, where Y joins ranks with some other existing no-stack group buff).

 

The changes all seem rather straightforward, even streamlining.  Past X-pacs have seen many/most/all(?) classes with changing, evolving, or replacing abilities (Paladin examples include: Divine Storm, Templar's Verdict, Holy Power, Inquisition).  Barring values changes on every ability, there appears to be little to no actual gameplay change.  Again, ignoring value changes (more/less damage on ability A, CD tweak on ability B, or Draenic Perks), it's almost the change level of a tier patch.

 

1. Agreed, though I wonder where they'd put it. Pally CC is looking so weak in WoD (HoJ + L30 talents, which often as not means FoJ) that maybe they could just make the L30 talents baseline (well, at least FoJ & Repentance) & add an aura tier in there instead. I mean, I know they're trying to nerf PvP CC across the board, but going down to just 1 spell on a 1min CD seems a bit ridiculous.

 

2. Agreed, but they've said they're pretty happy with how paladins are ATM - it'll be a nice change to not have to re-learn the class again (hi every other expansion :P ).


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#23 Thels

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 10:30 AM

Additionally it overrides boot enchants.  Movement Speed on boots provides 7.5% speed increase which does not stack with things such as Feline Swiftness or Pursuit of Justice.  So now movement talents must balance against another class buffed by an enchant.  Either the talents balance against un-enchanted other classes, which means other classes gain an advantage once enchanted, or the talents balance against enchanted other classes, which means other classes are at a disadvantage unless enchanted..

They already said they would change that.

- All your own passive bonuses will stack. The bonuses will be additive rather than multiplicative, so +10% and +30% gives 140%, not 143%.

- You can have any number of temporary/external bonuses, but only the strongest bonus is applied at any one time, and again the bonus is applied additive.

- You can have any number of movement speed penalties, but only the strongest penalty is applied at any one time, and is applied to the total movement speed.

 

So PoJ will stack with Boots enchants come 6.0.

 

If Devo Aura is dropped (seems likely), then paladins lose the last vestige of the aura system.

From the current looks of it, it's going to become a Holy Paladin only ability.



#24 Teleros

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:51 PM

More changes, mostly for Holy:

 

-Flash of Light cost down to 37% base mana, from 38.5%.

-Eternal Flame HoT scaling from SP doubled from 3.3% to 6.6%

-Seraphim L100 talent also buffs readiness by +30% of Readiness from gear.

-Glyph of Divine Favour: Renamed Glyph of Divine Wrath, works on Holy's Avenging Wrath (see below).

 

Holy

-Divine Favour renamed Avenging Wrath: +100% damage & healing, +20% haste, +20% crit chance, for 20 secs. 3min CD.

-Divine Plea: Costs 3 HP. Instantly regain 4.5% of max mana.

-Holy Light: Cost reduced to 18% base mana, from 19.5%

-Holy Radiance: Cost reduced to 49% base mana, from 51.5%

-Holy Shock: Cost reduced to 15% base mana, from 15.5%.

 

 

Looks like Sanctified Wrath may still remain in the game in some form after all if Prot & Holy are getting their own unique versions of Avenging Wrath.

 

+ + +

 

EDIT: 19/04/2014 - More changes:

 

-Dev Aura is for Holy paladins only.

-Plate items will always have Strength & Intellect on them, but if you're the wrong spec you won't receive the benefit of the stat. This will make items that drop useful for more people in the group. Same applies to other armour specialisations.

-Movement speed buffs are additive, not multiplicative: +25% x2 = +50%, not +56%, etc.

-HoTs and DoTs update their effects dynamically, instead of snapshotting your stats.

 

-Infusion of Light gives +10% Haste.

-Seal of Insight no longer gives +10% spell haste.

-Selfless Healer for Holy no longer makes Judgement grant HP. It can only be used on Flash of Light casts too.

-Bastion of  Glory doesn't affect the HoT of Eternal Flame.

-Shining Protector: A new ability for Prot. Any heals you receive have a chance equal to your multistrike chance to heal you for an extra 30% of the triggering heal.

 

-For those wondering, all reforged items in 5.x will be restored to their pre-reforged states when 6.0 hits.

 

-Finally, T17 WIP...

 

 

Edit: 22/04/2014 - Another change...

 

-Hammer of Wrath now scales with 320% SP, up from 268%.


Edited by Teleros, 22 April 2014 - 08:56 AM.

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#25 Teleros

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:36 PM

Some more changes in addition to the edits above:

 

-Seal of Insight no longer heals you. Maybe a Prot-only change, as they get a passive that does this instead, to make them use SoT/SoR more. Also has a knock-on effect on Glyph of the Battle Healer.

 

-Hammer of the Righteous removed as an independent spell. Now, casting Seal of Righteousness will replace CS with HotR. Pop another seal to return to CS.

 

Not really sure I like these changes, at least for Ret. The first should be fine for Prot assuming the heal itself isn't nerfed. The second change just feels like a case of dumbing down too much though.


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#26 Exemplar

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:23 PM

-Hammer of the Righteous removed as an independent spell. Now, casting Seal of Righteousness will replace CS with HotR. Pop another seal to return to CS.

 

Not really sure I like these changes, at least for Ret. The first should be fine for Prot assuming the heal itself isn't nerfed. The second change just feels like a case of dumbing down too much though.

I think it's the opposite of dumbing down.  It requires additional micromanagement to use most effectively.  It is requiring 2 GCD to move between single target and AOE.  In order to hit more than one target you would need to swap from SoT to SoR, then you throw out a HotR (assuming you're in range of your primary target).  This makes varying number of targets (i.e. adds spawning in waves and dying reasonably quickly) a pain.

 

I suspect you'll see your average (not high-end) Protadin simply stick with SoT+CS and let Holy Wrath, Consecrate, and Avenging Shield bounces pick up and hold additional targets.  Just swap target for your CS and Judge every so often.

 

Unless they tweak HotR and SoR, it's going to make AOE next to impossible for Ret.  We currently require 2 targets for HotR to pull ahead of CS, and 6 for SoR.  Since we would lose a GCD to the seal swap, we'd need something on the order of 4-6 targets alive for a reasonable length of time just to make the seal swaps and far lesser damage to each individual target worthwhile.

 

All this without fixing the issue where you must have a target and the target must be in range/facing/etc for HotR to engage.

 

It continues to amuse me how Ret Paladin went from king-of-incidental-AOE in Wrath to struggles-to-AOE by Mists.


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#27 Tobrexa

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:49 PM

From a prot point of view, picking up multiple adds, stray or new will even be more difficult now with this change, for all the reasons Exemplar pointed out.

In my opinion, HotR has to remain either a spell on the same cd as CS or there has to be another way of on demand, non-dot AoE.

Furthermore, as Exemplar rightly brings up, HotR has still it's clunky way of execution (compare with Thunderclap, Pestilence (with which Blood Boil has been merged), Swipe, which require as far as I know no target, and Dizzying Haze which can be targeted and is almost always available on a 40 yard range)

 

I am still in favor of removing/merging all the seals where it makes sense and/or integrate functionality as a passive/glyph for respective specs, for example: slow from Seal of Justice as a glyph, or as a weaker passive, with a glyph to upgrade.


Edited by Tobrexa, 24 April 2014 - 01:57 PM.

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#28 Teleros

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:07 PM

I think it's the opposite of dumbing down.  It requires additional micromanagement to use most effectively. It is requiring 2 GCD to move between single target and AOE.

I suppose I phrased that badly. What I mean is it's Blizz telling you "you want to AoE? Only thing you can do is push that button (SoR)". I can't decide to keep SoT & use HotR, because HotR no longer exists as a separate spell.

 

Good point about the extra GCD required as well though.

 

All this without fixing the issue where you must have a target and the target must be in range/facing/etc for HotR to engage.

Agreed. HotR being its own spell & basically a HP-generating version of Divine Storm would be much better (ie, no target required etc).

 

It continues to amuse me how Ret Paladin went from king-of-incidental-AOE in Wrath to struggles-to-AOE by Mists.

I still miss those days :( .

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#29 Teleros

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 10:32 AM

Okay, looks like the Seal of Righteousness / HotR change may not be happening after all. Also, maybe not the loss of self-healing / haste for SoI, though I wouldn't hold your breath.

 

-Flash of Light costs 23% base mana, down from 37%.

-WoG scales with 103.76% SP, up from 72.63%. Harsh Words scales the same (was 73%). EF scales the same, with the HoT scaling with 9.43% SP (was 6.6%).

 

-Holy Prism scales with 141.86% SP for damage, and 210.5% SP for healing. Down from 334% & 495% respectively. Also costs 17% base mana.

-Execution Sentence costs 12.8% base mana. Damage is now 674.2% SP, down from 1586.5%, for both healing & DPS.

-Light's Hammer costs 51.9% base mana, scales with 47.34% SP, down from 111.4%.

 

-Sanctified Wrath will continue to buff wings for Holy & Ret, and will buff GoAK for Prot. No details yet though.

 

Looking at these changes, I *think* the mana costs for the L90 talents are probably for Holy only. This patch contained a lot of healing mana cost changes (all reductions too), so I think what we're seeing is Blizz trying to make the L90 talents fit in better with Holy's cheaper toolkit. Course I could be totally wrong & Ret/Prot will have to dump over half their mana to cast Light's Hammer, but I think that would be a bit extreme.


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#30 Thels

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:23 PM

Light's Hammer gets hit especially hard on the mana cost. Bumping up Prot/Ret mana regen won't be the solution, as it'll get very close to allowing us to spam endless Flashes of Light, which can have all kinds of bad results on PvP and perhaps some PvE encounters. It'll likely be holy only changes, else we'll be pigeonholed into Execution Sentence, since it's the lowest mana requirement. Admittedly, Light's Hammer is currently quite strong in the hands of a prot pala with a lot of vengeance, so they might not want prots to cast Light's Hammer every minute, but they could easily have resolve not affect our T90 abilities.

 

What do people think of the sealweave talent? Sealweaving basically adds 3 spells to our active rotation, while removing none for prot and only inq for ret. It's going to be even more of a button clutter. But since it's the more skill driven talent of the three, it's likely the one ending up as the best, and then becoming mandatory to everyone that wants to perform as best as possible.



#31 Pdawg

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 10:00 PM

At first glance, it doesn't look very fun.  They removed Inquisition because it was "too hard" for players to maintain, but they added Empowered Seals instead, which will be way more difficult.  Seal twisting was fun when we had far fewer buttons to push, and we spent more than half of the time just autoattacking while waiting for abilities' cooldowns to expire.  We now have a much more active rotation with few GCDs to spend changing seals, so maintaining the buffs will be very tedious.  I suspect that the ability will also create new haste breakpoints, where adding X amount of haste allows you to fit in one more ability before having to change seals and judging to refresh the buff.

 

The holy power cost on Seraphim looks tedious as well, and I'd argue that the 30 second cooldown is enough.  I'd rather see them remove the holy power cost and slightly lower the 30% effect or the duration of the effect to compensate for the extra TVs that we'll get from 5 extra holy power.



#32 Thels

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 09:02 PM

The difference between Empowered Seals and Inquisition is that EmpSeals is a choice. It's likely the best option, but not much better than Final Verdict, so people that don't want all the hassle of seal weaving don't have to bother with it, and not fall much behind. Not using Inquisition was a much bigger loss.

 

Yeah, I remember sealweaving in vanilla/tbc. It wasn't too bad back then, but we didn't have much else to press, so it wasn't too much of a burden. Now it's a talent that adds 3 additional buttons to our rotation.

 

Good point about haste breakpoints. Seraphim also suffers from it, as there will be haste breakpoints when your 7th, 8th and 9th button fall within.



#33 Exemplar

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 12:19 PM

Seraphim continues to feel unwieldy.  As pointed out in some tweets, lately, if you pop Seraphim then your CD (i.e. AW), your CD gets the Readiness bonus.  Thus more overall CD usage.  I think the 5 HP requirement is for PvP purposes to make it slightly harder to use repeated short burst windows.  Still makes it painful for PvE purposes and some other PvP balancer would be pleasant.  Using a 5 HP ability without wasting GCD, delaying HP generators, or mistiming a CD (ooops, hit it before Seraphim, no Readiness boost) isn't tuned to the player of average skill.

 

I'd suspect that Seraphim is nice in Blizzard's view, because it could drastically change stat weights.  Seraphim users would want X > Y > Z, while non-Seraphim could want Y > Z > X or some such.

 

Seal Twisting makes a lot more sense in a no Sanctity of Battle world, when Haste gave us free GCD.  Currently as you gain Haste, you immediately fill any newly freed time with another attack as ability CDs are shortened.  I suspect in absolute terms Sealtwisting would be top DPS by a mile, but in subjective terms it becomes a narrow margin just for those top-skill paladins.  Basically you'd have to give up a specific attack every so frequently to twist seal, so you're gaining the passive benefits in exchange for losing, say, a CS (and 1 HP) every set period.  Over the course of a fight you'd lose X CS (or whatever) and HP (thus a few TV), but gain your second (or third) passive Seal buff.  + buff - attacks = bonus slightly > Seraphim or Final Verdict.

 

Sadly, I see Final Verdict the "must use" for the average skilled player (using Seraphim or Empowered Seals to most benefit would not be a casual task).  Seems odd to have two "high skill" talents and one "low skill" talent.


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#34 Thels

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:48 PM

I'm not too sure about that. If there were two low skill talents, someone would math out which low skill talent was better, and people would use that, or if the numbers were close, people would be told to sim both options and base their choice upon the results. Might just as well save people the math and have only one low skill talent.

 

We'll have to wait and see what the numbers are, but it's very likely that Final Verdict will be a solid and decent choice for most players, whereas EmpSeals and Seraphim will have a slight advantage in the hands of skilled players.



#35 Exemplar

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 06:32 PM

Which is exactly what will happen with the high-skill talents.  We'll crunch numbers, declare a straight winner or advise to how to determine your result from a sim.  It's a sad truth of talents that directly increase damage.  The L90 tier at least has the benefit of an AOE-winner and a single target-winner (and the ever ignored Holy Prism).


Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
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#36 Thels

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:04 PM

Holy Prism serves some use for Prot Paladins that need snap aggro. :P

 

You can't numbercrunch EmpSeals and Seraphim as well as most other DPS increasing talents, as they are very playerskill dependant. Sure, if you're confident about pulling them off, then whichever SimC tells you is the best is the best for you. But for a lot of players this is a trap.

 

I can very well see EmpSeals coming out on top on paper. A lot of players will then take the talent, and maybe do the better numbers on a training dummy, but lose the focus during an actual raid and drop in DPS, or perhaps fail on mechanics, because their rotation demands all their attention.



#37 Titan

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 03:41 PM

http://www.frenzywow...din-alpha-notes

 

My thoughts on the upcoming changes to ret from when the Alpha Notes first came out! Note some information is outdated, eg does not include the changes to seals whereby HotR is only available in seal of righteousness and replaces cs, etc

 

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#38 Thels

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:49 PM

Didn't they say they were going to undo that change to HotR?

 

Overall, keep in mind they haven't played the numbers game yet. Since Final Verdict is by far the easiest of the three talents, it stands to reason that both other talents have the potential to be a tiny gain.

 

If I'm not mistaken with the above statement, then the difference between a good and a great player should become more obvious. A good player could stick with Final Verdict and pull of decent numbers. A great player could pick up Empowered Seals and pull better numbers.

 

The thing about Empowered Seals VS Inquisition is that Inquisition is mandatory for all ret palas, whereas Empowered Seals is a talent, and thus a choice.

 

As for the huge macro, you'd probably still macro your AW to any on use trinkets, but such macros are exactly the point why they want to scrap the additional CDs.



#39 Teleros

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 08:59 AM

Yay for more changes. Looks like Blizz have started looking at numbers.

 

-Censure does less damage for Holy & Ret (25.7% SP, from 39%)

-Crusader Strike damage up from 95% to 100% weapon damage.

-Hammer of the Righteous damage up from 95% to 100% weapon damage.

-Execution Sentence damage down to 914.2% SP, from 1,041.5% SP.

-Hammer of Wrath damage down to 211.2% SP, from 320%.

 

-Holy Prism damage down to 165% SP, from 348%.

-Judgement does 50.21% SP damage, from 57%. Physical Vulnerability is now 5% for 30 secs, up from 4%.

-Seal of Insight gives Rets +5% healing & a chance to heal for 23.6% AP + 23.6% SP. Same for Prot, 6% more AP & SP for Holy.

-Seal of Truth weapon damage down to 12% from 18%.

-Light's Hammer does 51.68% SP, down from 78.3%.

 

-Turn Evil now has a 1.7sec cast time, down from 1.8 secs.

-Repentance now has a 1.7sec cast time, down from 1.8 secs.

 

-Empowered Seals buffed: Justice gives 20% movement speed, Insight 5% max health per 2 secs, Righteousness 30% attack speed, and Truth 15% attack power, all for 20 secs.

-Final Verdict buffed: 280% weapon damage as Holy, from 210%.

 

-Prot gains parry from crit chance, 1:1 ratio.

-Avenging Wrath for Holy gives +100% healing, 20% haste, 20% crit, 20% damage. Also picks up the kids from school.

 

-Divine Storm does 50% weapon damage, down from 75%.

-Art of War's 20% Exo reset proc folded into Exorcism itself.

-Seal of Justice damage down to 10% from 15% weapon damage.

-Sword of Light keeps the Live hotfix, buffing WoG by 60%, up from 30%.

-Templar's Verdict damage down to 185%, from 210%.


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#40 Pdawg

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 09:05 AM

New datamined changes are on MMOC.  It looks like Blizzard is doing preliminary damage tuning.  The most notable changes that I saw are:
- AW now gives 20% crit in addition to 20% damage for ret (see https://twitter.com/...51114010161152)

- Final Verdict now does 280% weapon damage as holy

- All aspects of Empowered Seals were buffed.

 

With the damage adjustments, DS is now doing 50% weapon damage as holy, TV is doing 185% weapon damage as physical, and Final Verdict is doing 280% weapon damage as holy.  Even if Final Verdict is on par with Empowered Seals and Seraphim on single target damage, it will surely fall behind them on AoE.  If you pick up FV as your level 100 talent, it will take at least 6 targets for DS to pull ahead of FV.  You'd be better off taking one of the other two talents on AoE fights.







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