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Response to information from the ESO PvP Q&A


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#1 Soulece

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:24 PM

After all the answers that Brian was able to give us, I'm even more excited for ESO. I was originally skeptical that ESO would do TES justice but after all the info that ZOS has released on the game, I must say it's looking really good.

 

It's nice to see that I can use any skill line combination and any armor/weapons I would normally use for PvE in PvP. All the exploration in Cyrodiil for lore books, quests and resources and all with PvP thrown in is an exciting idea.

 

What are everyone elses thoughts on the Q&A?


Edited by Soulece, 18 December 2013 - 11:25 PM.


#2 Arxkanite

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:26 PM

I was very pleased. I agree with you, this 100% feels like an Elder Scrolls game. I'm very excited that I can focus on PVE, lore all that and still jump into pvp without being handicapped because I didn't farm pvp gear for months on end.


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#3 Soulece

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:30 PM

I was very pleased. I agree with you, this 100% feels like an Elder Scrolls game. I'm very excited that I can focus on PVE, lore all that and still jump into pvp without being handicapped because I didn't farm pvp gear for months on end.

This is definitely one of my favorite aspects of the game. It always annoyed me in WoW that I would have to spend a week or two just grinding battlegrounds to get enough honor to get decent PvP gear, the whole while, I'm getting kicked around like a Hacky Sack because I'm running around in PvE gear and my enemies are all wearing full PvP gear. Now I can take my time on the PvE part of the game if I like and soak in the lore instead of having to rush to PvP to keep up with everyone else.



#4 sid

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:30 PM

First off, thanks for the forum moderators for enabling this.

 

We did not get answers to the important questions that affect small or large scale pvp.

 

Is there an AOE limit? It was asked 5 times and the limit ruined RvR in some games like GW2 and greatly encouraged terrible mindless zerging and made pvpers quit the game. If there is no limit..can you guarantee this come the load on the servers from aoe skills hitting many targets?

 

Stealth: how many times can you restealth in combat? The more you can the more broken the stealth balance is.

 

Reviving dead allies DURING combat..how frequent is it and how ready is the access to abilities affecting it. This can be very terrible in a zerg since there are tons of people with their instant revive on cool down so it's like you did nothing.

 

Also, the response to handling larger groups with AOE by resorting to siege is a very bad step which pvpers will take against the game. No body logs on to a 60$ game +15$ a month only to play angry birds on siege. This is not pvp but a poor boring form of pve.

 

In guild Wars 2 you had 1 lvl 3 person holding off 10 lvl 80 people at the gate by using an arrow cart..

 

Also, enabling small numbers of people to fend off larger ones with siege is EXACTLY what Guild wars 2 is doing and which immediately pushed anyone who likes to pvp away from the game. I know..I've been in 3 wvw small group guilds and they all quit because of this.

 

Unfortunately, A lot of us pvpers -old DAOC or GW2- learned our lessons and will not buy the game till we know about these major pvp game breaking issues.


Edited by ZOS_JessicaFolsom, 18 December 2013 - 11:45 PM.

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#5 Arxkanite

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:33 PM

We did not get answers to the important questions that affect small scale pvp or large scale pvp.
 
Is there an AOE limit? It was asked 5 times and the limit ruined RvR in some games like GW2 and greatly encouraged terrible mindless zerging and made pvpers quit the game. If there is no limit..can you guarantee this come the load on the servers?
 
Stealth: how many times can you restealth in combat? The more you can the more broken the stealth balance is.
 
Reviving dead allies DURING combat..how frequent is it and how ready is the access to abilities affecting it.
 
A lot of us pvpers learned our lessons and will not buy the game till we know about these major pvp game breaking issues.


There is no way he can answer every question. He has to focus on easy to answer questions so that he can answer as many as he can get to. Some may be things they are working on. Things like AOE limits and such would be the kind of thing they are still balancing out so the answer might be "We don't know yet". As testing progresses I'm sure this will come to light.

#6 Soulece

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:35 PM

We did not get answers to the important questions that affect small scale pvp or large scale pvp.
 
Is there an AOE limit? It was asked 5 times and the limit ruined RvR in some games like GW2 and greatly encouraged terrible mindless zerging and made pvpers quit the game. If there is no limit..can you guarantee this come the load on the servers?
 
Stealth: how many times can you restealth in combat? The more you can the more broken the stealth balance is.
 
Reviving dead allies DURING combat..how frequent is it and how ready is the access to abilities affecting it.
 
A lot of us pvpers learned our lessons and will not buy the game till we know about these major pvp game breaking issues.

He ran out of time in the Q&A thread. However, they said Brian would answer more questions over the following days. He will most likely get around to it.

 

However, I'm a pvper as well and in no way is lacking the information on AOE limit/restealth/if you can revive dead allies keeping me from buying the game for pvp. These may be things that hurt pvp in other games but having limits on AOE in ESO's PvP doesn't mean it could harm the PvP as the PvP in ESO is much different than in other MMOs.

 

Calmer heads will prevail, you should know that since you are a PvPer and that's one of the neverending truths behind large scale pvp.


Edited by Soulece, 18 December 2013 - 11:36 PM.


#7 TTH_Sardu

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:36 PM

I'm also very curious about any AoE limits, but Brian noted a few times that smaller coordinated groups could be very effective. One of my biggest issues with WvW in GW2 is that you pretty much have to stick with the zerg most of the time. Otherwise, small groups can only do well on less populated borderland maps (or off-peak hours). 



#8 Soulece

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:42 PM

Yeah, his comments in multiple answers about how small coordinated groups can take on large groups and even just small groups can take on groups MANY times their size by using the terrain to their advantage is very promising. I feel the PvP in Cyrodiil won't be ruled just by giant armies slamming their faces into keeps. Though as Brian said, Zerging is still a viable stategy and in certain situations, will probably be the right move, such as when you manage to bring a keep wall down with your seige weapons, you'll want to surge your way into the keep as fast as possible to get a foothold.



#9 Wik

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:18 AM

It's always nice to have someone from the development team to answer stuff but I honestly wasn't too excited from the answers we got and the questions that were picked. He is suppossed to be the head guy for RvR/PvP. Why are people asking about PVE and communicating with other realms? I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to ask those questions, but you shouldn't be asking those questions to HIM.

 

Very little was answered for me in regards to RvR which is the main driving force of the game (and for me). When I originally heard about ESo I was thinking/hoping for a game similiar to DAOC. I can safely say from the limited answers we got pertaining to RvR it's gonna be a zerg fest and the days of the small, organized, skilled gank groups is over and ESO won't be bringing it back. Everything was framed with people holding keeps. Nothing about the inevtiable fights, ganks and scraps that WILL occur in the middle of nowehere, enroute to a keep or farm etc.

 

Again, very happy that he was willing to come talk but didn't get much from it and what i did get wasn't anything that made me jump for joy.



#10 Wik

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:33 AM

He ran out of time in the Q&A thread. However, they said Brian would answer more questions over the following days. He will most likely get around to it.

 

However, I'm a pvper as well and in no way is lacking the information on AOE limit/restealth/if you can revive dead allies keeping me from buying the game for pvp. These may be things that hurt pvp in other games but having limits on AOE in ESO's PvP doesn't mean it could harm the PvP as the PvP in ESO is much different than in other MMOs.

 

Calmer heads will prevail, you should know that since you are a PvPer and that's one of the neverending truths behind large scale pvp.

 

I think what is missing in translation here is that many of us (and surprsignly so, I am actually very happy to see that DAOC hasn't faded from memory), are DAOC RvR folks who excelled in 8man gank groups or small stealther groups and were skilled players. Scenarios pre TOA x-pac in DAOC it was not unheard of hvaing a skilled, strong 8 man wipe a 40 man mindless zerg.

 

Or having an epic 8v8 fight beetween two top notch guilds.

 

We want to know if having your group (or depending on group size) two groups of good friends who communicate and know what to do will have an impact and have surviveablity in RvR for ESO or if we will get steam rolled (like Warhammer). That will keep me from, or lead me to buying ESO.



#11 Soulece

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:34 AM

It's always nice to have someone from the development team to answer stuff but I honestly wasn't too excited from the answers we got and the questions that were picked. He is suppossed to be the head guy for RvR/PvP. Why are people asking about PVE and communicating with other realms? I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to ask those questions, but you shouldn't be asking those questions to HIM.

 

Very little was answered for me in regards to RvR which is the main driving force of the game (and for me). When I originally heard about ESo I was thinking/hoping for a game similiar to DAOC. I can safely say from the limited answers we got pertaining to RvR it's gonna be a zerg fest and the days of the small, organized, skilled gank groups is over and ESO won't be bringing it back. Everything was framed with people holding keeps. Nothing about the inevtiable fights, ganks and scraps that WILL occur in the middle of nowehere, enroute to a keep or farm etc.

 

Again, very happy that he was willing to come talk but didn't get much from it and what i did get wasn't anything that made me jump for joy.

 

There is no RvR, this isn't DAOC. It's AvA. You are placing your expectations from DAOC as a PvP centric MMO onto ESO just because devs from DAOC are working on ESO. Despite what you think, PvP is not the driving force behind ESO. PvE and PvP are supposed to be equally important though we all know that PvE in Lore centric games like TES tend to win out. PvP is a huge part of the game but it is not the sole focus as you seem to think it is.

 

As for PVE questions, I don't remember seeing any PvE based questions and I didn't see any PvE based questions answered.

 

Brian quite clearly said that it won't just be zerg fest and multiple times mentioned how small groups can fend off and beat large groups. I think you should reread the Q&A.

 

I think the most important thing to take from this is that ESO has never been, nor should be, DAOC 2.0, it should be an Elder Scrolls MMO.


Edited by Soulece, 19 December 2013 - 01:10 AM.


#12 Shaithis

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:52 AM

There is no RvR, this isn't DAOC. It's AvA. You are placing your expectations from DAOC as a PvP centric MMO onto ESO just because devs from DAOC are working on ESO. Despite what you think, PvP is not the driving force behind ESO. PvE and PvP are supposed to be equally important though we all know that PvE in Lore centric games like TES tend to win out. PvP is a huge part of the game but it is not the sole focus as you seem to think it is.

 

As for PVE questions, I don't remember seeing any PvE based questions and I didn't see any PvE based questions answered. Brian quite clearly said that it won't just be zerg fest and multiple times mentioned how small groups can fend off and beat large groups. I think you should reread the Q&A.

 

I think the most important thing to take from this is that ESO has never been, nor should be, DAOC 2.0, it should be an Elder Scrolls MMO.

 

Relax, bro, nobody is trying to make anything DAoC 2.0.  You should consider that, while there is a sizeable market for an Elder Scrolls MMO, there is a HUGE market for a MMO that gets PvP "right."  The  concerns that have been brought up in this thread are coming from veterans of the genre who have had to deal with failure after failure.  AoE limits effectively disable skilled world PvP.  Simply enough, if this game has AoE limits, most of us won't play.  There is no "placing of expectations," we are sitting on the sidelines holding a clipboard with one question and a check box next to it.


Edited by Shaithis, 19 December 2013 - 12:52 AM.

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#13 Soulece

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:08 AM

Relax, bro, nobody is trying to make anything DAoC 2.0.  You should consider that, while there is a sizeable market for an Elder Scrolls MMO, there is a HUGE market for a MMO that gets PvP "right."  The  concerns that have been brought up in this thread are coming from veterans of the genre who have had to deal with failure after failure.  AoE limits effectively disable skilled world PvP.  Simply enough, if this game has AoE limits, most of us won't play.  There is no "placing of expectations," we are sitting on the sidelines holding a clipboard with one question and a check box next to it.

Actually, that's exactly what he was doing. He continually makes reference to DAOC in his expectations of how ESO should function. I've played MMO's since the days of Ultima Online and the fact I've seen failure after failure in MMOs is why I was skeptical at an Elder Scrolls MMO because it's my favorite game series of all time, I started playing it in '98 and have soaked up all the lore it has to offer over these 15 years and I was afraid that a bad MMO rollout of TES would not do the series justice.

 

However, after objectively looking over all the games aspects, I'm very excited for it and that includes the PvP.



#14 Soulece

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:14 AM

I think what is missing in translation here is that many of us (and surprsignly so, I am actually very happy to see that DAOC hasn't faded from memory), are DAOC RvR folks who excelled in 8man gank groups or small stealther groups and were skilled players. Scenarios pre TOA x-pac in DAOC it was not unheard of hvaing a skilled, strong 8 man wipe a 40 man mindless zerg.

 

Or having an epic 8v8 fight beetween two top notch guilds.

 

We want to know if having your group (or depending on group size) two groups of good friends who communicate and know what to do will have an impact and have surviveablity in RvR for ESO or if we will get steam rolled (like Warhammer). That will keep me from, or lead me to buying ESO.

Brian mentioned several instances where small organized groups defeated large disorganized groups in battle. You should see them in the answers he gave in the Q&A.



#15 Arxkanite

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:15 AM

I felt he answered this too. PvP Will take place only in Cyrodiil and no Realm vs Realm. So there isn't any reason to have pvp/pve realms separated. If you don't want to PvP Just don't go to Cyrodiil. Multiple times it was mentioned that small groups could organize against large ones. Zerging wont work at holding all objectives, because the map is so big it takes 20min to walk from one side to the other. This means, small groups will be very effective at hitting multiple objectives if a zerg forms. I would expect to see multiple groups working towards different objectives at once and each group a different size.



#16 Soulece

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:28 AM

Arxkanite said it perfectly. I feel giant zerg groups will have their place in PvP for those who like to move in a large group but guerilla warfare with small groups to even individuals (If I remember correctly, Brian said something about some nights he even goes out and solo man hunting) will play just as an important role, maybe even more as there just won't be enough people to be able to zerg keeps AND go for farms, lumbermills and mines and other secondary objectives.

 

Zerg groups will probably be relegated to defense or taking of keeps when the walls have fallen and maybe taking of some important secondary objectives to strengthen their foothold in another factions part of the map.


Edited by Soulece, 19 December 2013 - 01:31 AM.


#17 Wik

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:49 AM

Brian mentioned several instances where small organized groups defeated large disorganized groups in battle. You should see them in the answers he gave in the Q&A.

You seem to have a hard on for me, and since this was your last reply i'll just start from here.

 

Since you like to tell everyone "what I mean" or "what I think" I would like to clarify that I don't expect ESO to be DAOC 2.0. I'm not an Elder Scrolls fan boy, but I understand it has its own followers from previous games and I wouldn't begrudge anyone who is a hardcore fan of their previous games of having an opinion. That being said, as Shaithis mentioned, I am an MMO veteran since 2000 with EQ. What made me fall in love with DAOC was the unique RvR system. "Getting PvP right" doesn't require THAT exact system, imo. But the systems that have been used in games since have been medicore to dreadful. Having many devs from DAOC, my hope is/was that they would be able to bring a similiar or new (but still well thought out) system of PvP.

 

Second, when I say RvR I mean Realm vs. Realm. In this regard, my acronym is very accurate. If they have a new term for it that I don't know about thats fine but this game will still have "RvR". It's the three realms fighting it out, the very ESSENCE and literall translation of Realm vs. Realm combat. The acronym, to me, simply symbolizes multiple factions, instead of only one or two, like GW or WoW. You don't need to get so worked up simply because it was a DAOC term. I guess no one should call PvP Player vs Player in MMOs because it was coined in EQ or Ultima or whatever. Geez, settle down.

 

As far as my expectations, I simply implied that a major part of my interest in this game is the end game RvR content and functionality. I don't care much about the graphics or the story line, although I certainly don't want those to be completly awful. Being that my focus is RvR however, the BEST RvR and PvP based MMO I have had the pleasure of playing was (IN MY OPINION) DAOC and with DAOC Devs, I would expect them to know how to develope RvR for ESO (although not identical to DAOC). The action in Cyrodiil IS RvR to me and that is what has pumped me up for ESO. I have no issue if you or others only want to RP, craft, PVE etc but Brian is the lead for PVP and so I anticipated much more about the actual structure, rewards etc.

 

In one of Brian's responces he mentioned that small groups could effectively defend a keep. That isn't my question. Anyone in Cyrodiil will find out quick just because a keep is in "X" area and people want to take it, doesn't mean that will be where the fighting is. An enemy force may try to cut off reinforcements. Mutiple enemy forces may work together to attack from multiple sides. One group runs into the enemy while another starts a siege. But can my 5-10 friends and I effectively take on, stall or even defeat a force of double or possiblly triple our numbers in the open? THAT is my and several other folks question. I don't care about small groups defending a keep. Of course you can do that. It's a no brainer. But when you don't have big, high walls protecting you and a scrum starts, are we doomed or do we stand a chance. And from reading the Q&A that was NOT answered. Also, the rewards for RvRing. All people talk about is the Emporer. I couldn't care less about that. One person gets that title, what does a player or every player get for participating in RvR, AvA, PvP or whatever kids call it now. Those were my two major questions and neither was answered.

 

I wasn't raging or screaming and crying because he didn't answer my question. I only replied to the subject and said that he didn't answer the questions that were important to me and my friends. If you were happy with his responce and the info he gave that is fine and completly your opinion and right. For me, however, I still have unaswered questions about ESO and until I have a solid answer, I do not know that I will be playing this game. I've dropped too much money on putrid MMOs that claim to have great RvR/PvP to accept plain, generic answers of "our RvR will be unlike any other, it's gonna be fun with lots of action".



#18 Jeremy Badessa

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:14 AM

Wik, yes Brian said that at least once if not more than once. 4-8 coordinated people have taken on 12-20 uncoordinated people through skill and teamwork.



#19 sid

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:49 AM

Arxkanite said it perfectly. I feel giant zerg groups will have their place in PvP for those who like to move in a large group but guerilla warfare with small groups to even individuals (If I remember correctly, Brian said something about some nights he even goes out and solo man hunting) will play just as an important role, maybe even more as there just won't be enough people to be able to zerg keeps AND go for farms, lumbermills and mines and other secondary objectives.

 

Zerg groups will probably be relegated to defense or taking of keeps when the walls have fallen and maybe taking of some important secondary objectives to strengthen their foothold in another factions part of the map.

 

No offense but judging from your Lore pve oriented question to Brian in a pvp Q&A as well as your posts here and aggression to anyone who does not worship the elder scrolls you might be labeled as a fan boy.

 

Some of us actually do organized pvp and run into those issues we asked about. Some of us played DAOC, SWTOR, AOC, GW2 and warhammer looking for the RVR experience.

 

If you want to buy the game because you are a fan of the series -which is played differently, I think- then it's up to you. The Organized small group pvpers  base our decisions to purchase a product on the gameplay we get from it.

 

These things will sway organized or hardcore pvpers to move away from the product to wildstar.

 

As for this game not being DAOC, mmos are always compared to other MMOs as it is a product. Nothing wrong with emulating a good game or improving upon it. It worked for Battlefield repeatedly, for example.

 

Fan boys -who usually do not pvp as much or take it seriously- will not be enough to keep the game afloat -take SWTOR or Star wars galaxy, for example- especially with GW2 on the market and WildStar showing promise.

 

For Arxkanite, it is true that Brian might not know about the AOE limit but they are stressing the RvR servers currently so it is easy to figure out. Give everyone max level and flood the zone and ask people to concentrate on AOE etc. He did allude to that how the small groups fought off the larger ones was using siege..not player skill or Player vs. Player..just siege vs player which is pretty boring as in GW2. Only PVErs waiting on a dungeon run enjoy that.


Edited by sid, 19 December 2013 - 08:19 AM.


#20 sid

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:50 AM

Wik, yes Brian said that at least once if not more than once. 4-8 coordinated people have taken on 12-20 uncoordinated people through skill and teamwork.

 

Look carefully through his replies and you will notice that he mentioned with siege aka angry birds gone medieval.






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