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Response to information from the ESO PvP Q&A


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#21 Soulece

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:11 AM

Since you like to tell everyone "what I mean" or "what I think" I would like to clarify that I don't expect ESO to be DAOC 2.0. What made me fall in love with DAOC was the unique RvR system.  Having many devs from DAOC, my hope is/was that they would be able to bring a similiar or new (but still well thought out) system of PvP.

 

In otherwords, DAOC 2.0.

 

Second, when I say RvR I mean Realm vs. Realm. In this regard, my acronym is very accurate. If they have a new term for it that I don't know about thats fine but this game will still have "RvR". It's the three realms fighting it out, the very ESSENCE and literall translation of Realm vs. Realm combat. The acronym, to me, simply symbolizes multiple factions, instead of only one or two, like GW or WoW. You don't need to get so worked up simply because it was a DAOC term. I guess no one should call PvP Player vs Player in MMOs because it was coined in EQ or Ultima or whatever. Geez, settle down.

 

It was RvR in DAoC and that is where the term makes sense. In ESO, it's AvA, which means Alliance vs Alliance. Might as well get a jump start on breaking the RvR habit is all I meant by it. However, comparing RvR to AvA argument to not calling it "PvP" because it was in another game doesn't make any sense.

 

As far as my expectations, I simply implied that a major part of my interest in this game is the end game RvR content and functionality. I don't care much about the graphics or the story line, although I certainly don't want those to be completly awful. Being that my focus is RvR however, the BEST RvR and PvP based MMO I have had the pleasure of playing was (IN MY OPINION) DAOC and with DAOC Devs, I would expect them to know how to develope RvR for ESO (although not identical to DAOC). The action in Cyrodiil IS RvR to me and that is what has pumped me up for ESO. I have no issue if you or others only want to RP, craft, PVE etc but Brian is the lead for PVP and so I anticipated much more about the actual structure, rewards etc.

 

You didn't imply that it was the major part of your interest in the game, you said that AvA was the main driving force of the game, which would mean you said that AvA is most of the game. But that's beside the point. The part that got me to reply to you was when you said that by the limited answers (which they weren't limited answers, we learned a ton of new info) we received meant that the game was going to garbage and you drew a scenario oh how terrible the AvA was without any evidence to show that it actually played in the same fashion. As for Brian's answers about structure and rewards, he answered quite a bit and he will be answering more of the questions over the next few days.

 

In one of Brian's responces he mentioned that small groups could effectively defend a keep. That isn't my question. Anyone in Cyrodiil will find out quick just because a keep is in "X" area and people want to take it, doesn't mean that will be where the fighting is. An enemy force may try to cut off reinforcements. Mutiple enemy forces may work together to attack from multiple sides. One group runs into the enemy while another starts a siege. But can my 5-10 friends and I effectively take on, stall or even defeat a force of double or possiblly triple our numbers in the open? THAT is my and several other folks question. I don't care about small groups defending a keep. Of course you can do that. It's a no brainer. But when you don't have big, high walls protecting you and a scrum starts, are we doomed or do we stand a chance. And from reading the Q&A that was NOT answered. Also, the rewards for RvRing. All people talk about is the Emporer. I couldn't care less about that. One person gets that title, what does a player or every player get for participating in RvR, AvA, PvP or whatever kids call it now. Those were my two major questions and neither was answered.

 

No, your question you so vehemently want answered was already answered. He didn't just say the keep could be defending by small groups, he said multiple times that small groups can beat larger groups in AvA anywhere as long as the smaller groups are more organized than the bigger groups. As for rewards, he clearly stated you get unique armor and weapons with unique set bonuses as well as a chance to become emperor, which gives you powerful abilities that not only turn you into a PvP juggernaut but boosts all your faction members in combat. I'm sure there are even more rewards he hasn't mentioned but it wouldn't be much to discover if they just told you ever reward.

 

I wasn't raging or screaming and crying because he didn't answer my question. I only replied to the subject and said that he didn't answer the questions that were important to me and my friends. If you were happy with his responce and the info he gave that is fine and completly your opinion and right. For me, however, I still have unaswered questions about ESO and until I have a solid answer, I do not know that I will be playing this game. I've dropped too much money on putrid MMOs that claim to have great RvR/PvP to accept plain, generic answers of "our RvR will be unlike any other, it's gonna be fun with lots of action".

 

As mentioned above in this reply and many replies by me and others, he did answer you and your friends questions, including the most important one you wanted answered about the group sizes.



#22 Soulece

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:36 AM

No offense but judging from your Lore pve oriented question to Brian in a pvp Q&A as well as your posts here and aggression to anyone who does not worship the elder scrolls you might be labeled as a fan boy. Remember, you are not the pvp lead dev as I noticed you actually answering the Qs for some reason.

 

Some of us actually do organized pvp and run into those issues we asked about. Some of us played DAOC, SWTOR, AOC, GW2 and warhammer looking for the RVR experience.

 

If you want to buy the game because you are a fan of the series -which is played differently, I think- then it's up to you. The Organized small group pvpers  base our decisions to purchase a product on the gameplay we get from it.

 

These things will sway organized or hardcore pvpers to move away from the product to wildstar.

 

As for this game not being DAOC, mmos are always compared to other MMOs as it is a product. Nothing wrong with emulating a good game or improving upon it. It worked for Battlefield repeatedly, for example.

 

Fan boys -who usually do not pvp as much or take it seriously- will not be enough to keep the game afloat -take SWTOR or Star wars galaxy, for example- especially with GW2 on the market and WildStar showing promise.

 

For Arxkanite, it is true that Brian might not know about the AOE limit but they are stressing the RvR servers currently so it is easy to figure out. Give everyone max level and flood the zone and ask people to concentrate on AOE etc. He did allude to that how the small groups fought off the larger ones was using siege..not player skill or Player vs. Player..just siege vs player which is pretty boring as in GW2. Only PVErs waiting on a dungeon run enjoy that.

 

You do realize that saying "No offense" doesn't actually make it any less offensive. No need to talk down to me. I take PvP quite seriously in all the MMOs I play. You obviously show contempt for anyone that enjoys PvE as well. Don't deny it, it's right in your reply. I enjoy both PvE and PvP so don't act like I can't possibly know what good PvP is...

 

As for my "Lore pve oriented" question, it wasn't PvE oriented. Yes, it was lore but it was based on the world pvp zone. My "aggression" wasn't because he didn't "worship" Elder Scrolls, it was because he was attacking a developer for not answering a question that he had actually answered. I was explaining to him that it was answered and I was also explaining to him that it's not a PvP centric game.

 

As I mentioned, I'm a hardcore fan of TES, not of ESO. I even was disgusted at first about the idea of a TES MMO because I assumed it was going to turn out as another WoW clone and would disgrace TES. However, after seeing all the information for ESO in PvE and PvP, I'm actually very excited. There is no "Fanboyism" going on.

 

As for you quip at SWG, the game did stay afloat. Over 8 years before the servers shut down is hardly a flop. It only shut down because the contract SOE had with Lucas Arts was running out and also, they thought that SWTOR was going to be a blowout hit and then without any endgame PvE content, SWTOR all but disintegrated. In fact, SWG shutting down was a highly covered event and many publications still celebrate SWG even two years after it has shut down (Massively did a 10th anniversary piece about SWG).

 

Hardcore PvPers (which I am as well, seeing as I've been a gladiator many WoW seasons) are not enough to keep a game afloat because like you, many Hardcore PvPers are fickle and change directions with the wind.


Edited by Soulece, 19 December 2013 - 04:09 AM.


#23 Wik

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:48 AM

Soulece, you're being rude, just to pound your e-chest. Stop it. I didn't insult Brian. I asked a question and thanked him for taking his time to answer any and all questions.

 

The thread asked about our take on his answers. I voiced MY OPINION. You instantly took offense because I didn't just ooze, smile and nod. Your incesant claim that my question is only about ESO being "DAOC 2.0" is dumb. As mentioned by a previous poster, MANY MMOs have taken things from each other and put their own twist on things to "improve" them according to how they want the functionality within their respective game. If you ever stop reading to simply refute what I said and actually just read it for what it was, you would see that I have said MULTIPLE times I don't expect ESO to be DAOC 2. Still, with DAOC Devs, it would be obvious and easy for them to TAKE PARTS of a system known to have worked. As you so elequintly put "The game isn't just RvR," so if they borrowed that identical system from DAOC it still would only be a PART of the game, thus NOT DAOC 2.

 

The Alliance vs. Alliance is.......wait for it......Realm vs. Realm! Each alliance is a.........REALM, holy cow! You can call it PvP, RvR or AvA. Regardless it is the SAME for the purpose of these discussions, so stop with your acronym nazi police stuff.

 

As far as RvR....it IS a RvR centric game. Will there be raids and dungeons etc? Ya, probably, guess what, DAOC is known as a PvP based game and get aload of this, it had all those things as well. You don't HAVE to PvP in any MMO. But in the case of DAOC and from what I have experienced and read about ESO (and games like Warhammer) end game PvP is a very major focus (Cyrodiil is the major focal point of the end game to explore, wage war, take and hold keeps etc etc). If you choose not to acknowledge it, or participate that is fine and certainly your choice as you pay for your sub. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and that many MMO players who value PvP will take the combat and PvP system into serious consideration.

 

"...our internal tests and Betas, that 2-4 player well coordinated groups have picked apart larger groups of players but then I've also been steamrolled in the exact same situation so it's a matter of who you're up against at the time and the players on the other side of the internet that determines a battle victor!"

 

And

 

"We've seen these smaller groups come out after players get their feet wet and familiar with the game and tactics, and I'm happy to report that I've seen a group of 6-8 players hold off waves of 40 or more at upper levels of Keeps which is exactly what they were designed to do.  Eventually they lost, but it proved that small groups can win if coordinated...it just takes a bit of time to develop those tactics."

 

Those are both quotes from Brian but neither directly answers the question. The first quote doesn't say what situation these fights took place in. "Roaming" in the middle of nowhere and fought? Roaming around a keep and fought? Straight up in an uninterrupted, un-altered (from say npcs or other players etc) fight? In a keep? I don't know.

 

The second quote clearly ONLY pertains to siege, which as I mentioned, I am not asking this in regards to. Again, we can argue this all day but I'm an adult. If I am going to reach into my pocket to play a game I have every right to get a clear and specific answer to my specific questions prior to buying the game. If I don't, I just won't but it unless I can receive that answer from a trustworthy friend who is playing the game. If I have trepidation, it shouldn't be your concern. Just like it's not my concern as to why you want to find a lore book about forests in PvP. It's your right to want that content and lore and while it isn't anything I care about, you do. So who am I to insult you for saying that that is something you're excited for? And who are you to insult and admonish me for wanting a reply from Brian about a very specific question?



#24 sid

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 08:31 AM

Soulece, you're being rude, just to pound your e-chest. Stop it. I didn't insult Brian. I asked a question and thanked him for taking his time to answer any and all questions.

 

The thread asked about our take on his answers. I voiced MY OPINION. You instantly took offense because I didn't just ooze, smile and nod. Your incesant claim that my question is only about ESO being "DAOC 2.0" is dumb. As mentioned by a previous poster, MANY MMOs have taken things from each other and put their own twist on things to "improve" them according to how they want the functionality within their respective game. If you ever stop reading to simply refute what I said and actually just read it for what it was, you would see that I have said MULTIPLE times I don't expect ESO to be DAOC 2. Still, with DAOC Devs, it would be obvious and easy for them to TAKE PARTS of a system known to have worked. As you so elequintly put "The game isn't just RvR," so if they borrowed that identical system from DAOC it still would only be a PART of the game, thus NOT DAOC 2.

 

The Alliance vs. Alliance is.......wait for it......Realm vs. Realm! Each alliance is a.........REALM, holy cow! You can call it PvP, RvR or AvA. Regardless it is the SAME for the purpose of these discussions, so stop with your acronym nazi police stuff.

 

As far as RvR....it IS a RvR centric game. Will there be raids and dungeons etc? Ya, probably, guess what, DAOC is known as a PvP based game and get aload of this, it had all those things as well. You don't HAVE to PvP in any MMO. But in the case of DAOC and from what I have experienced and read about ESO (and games like Warhammer) end game PvP is a very major focus (Cyrodiil is the major focal point of the end game to explore, wage war, take and hold keeps etc etc). If you choose not to acknowledge it, or participate that is fine and certainly your choice as you pay for your sub. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and that many MMO players who value PvP will take the combat and PvP system into serious consideration.

 

"...our internal tests and Betas, that 2-4 player well coordinated groups have picked apart larger groups of players but then I've also been steamrolled in the exact same situation so it's a matter of who you're up against at the time and the players on the other side of the internet that determines a battle victor!"

 

And

 

"We've seen these smaller groups come out after players get their feet wet and familiar with the game and tactics, and I'm happy to report that I've seen a group of 6-8 players hold off waves of 40 or more at upper levels of Keeps which is exactly what they were designed to do.  Eventually they lost, but it proved that small groups can win if coordinated...it just takes a bit of time to develop those tactics."

 

Those are both quotes from Brian but neither directly answers the question. The first quote doesn't say what situation these fights took place in. "Roaming" in the middle of nowhere and fought? Roaming around a keep and fought? Straight up in an uninterrupted, un-altered (from say npcs or other players etc) fight? In a keep? I don't know.

 

The second quote clearly ONLY pertains to siege, which as I mentioned, I am not asking this in regards to. Again, we can argue this all day but I'm an adult. If I am going to reach into my pocket to play a game I have every right to get a clear and specific answer to my specific questions prior to buying the game. If I don't, I just won't but it unless I can receive that answer from a trustworthy friend who is playing the game. If I have trepidation, it shouldn't be your concern. Just like it's not my concern as to why you want to find a lore book about forests in PvP. It's your right to want that content and lore and while it isn't anything I care about, you do. So who am I to insult you for saying that that is something you're excited for? And who are you to insult and admonish me for wanting a reply from Brian about a very specific question?

Just ignore him. I'm hoping the forum moderators start infarcting posts like his. I didn't even bother reading his reply.

 

Hopefully the pvp dev will clear up the remaining questions.

 

Wildstar shows a similar OP stealth mechanic like GW2 -stealth not being revealed on being damaged and repeated in combat stealth+instant teleports+snares-  but so far no clear AOE limits in the ability descriptions -some auto attacks are specifically mentioned as affecting 5 ppl-. Also, healing abilities are mentioned to affect 10 ppl which is good as I think AOE dps should have unlimited targets while healing/support should be limited to group members or it spills to say 2 allies if your group is missing 2 allies -too much work, I think. Group members is enough-.

 

Strangely enough, they seem to have a pretty good head start on ESO and have their own class build editor site up and detailed beta pvp vids out.

 

Here is the site for interested PvPers: http://ws-base.com/

 

I'm routing for ESO, though. I hope it crushes wildstar.



#25 MysticalOS

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:04 PM

PvP topics are always hot topic discussions with different views. Not everyone is going to agree, but try to keep a civility and constructivism on posts made here. Feel free to disagree with each other, but do so without insults or hostility.

This thread will only loosely be moderated because it's an opinions and interpretations thread at this point while we still know very little about the upcoming game.

#26 Soulece

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:44 PM

There was one thing that I was disappointed in not hearing about and that was the Emperor's unique abilities and his buffs to other players. Brian didn't go into detail about the armor or abilities but he did mention that "When an Alliance gets an Emperor, they really don't want to lose it". That gives us some insight into how powerful the Emperor really is at least.



#27 Lazertag

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:01 PM

Pretty disappointed that he didn't say wether or not AoE abilities will have a cap of players they can hit. If they do, it would ruin small group RvR and render them completely useless versus the Zerg. Zerging would pretty much be the only viable option. I seriously hope they don't make this game breaking mistake.



#28 Soulece

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:29 PM

Pretty disappointed that he didn't say wether or not AoE abilities will have a cap of players they can hit. If they do, it would ruin small group RvR and render them completely useless versus the Zerg. Zerging would pretty much be the only viable option. I seriously hope they don't make this game breaking mistake.

As mentioned by Brian, Small group AvA is completely viable and he has seen small groups tear apart large groups all the time. Even if there is a cap on AoE, it doesn't mean that small group AvA is not viable. The combat in ESO is much different than in GW2 or DAOC. Ultimately, we know that Small organized groups can take on large zerg groups, so that is the most important question most people have been asking about AvA in ESO.

 

Edit: Here's a quote from one of his answers yesterday.

 

"We've been working diligently to find those sweet spot ratios and abilities to make it so small groups (4 players or so) can have the opportunity to take out larger groups (8-12 or more depending on the group make up) but it is a tough balance point to strike.  I can say from roaming around in small groups during our internal tests and Betas, that 2-4 player well coordinated groups have picked apart larger groups of players but then I've also been steamrolled in the exact same situation so it's a matter of who you're up against at the time and the players on the other side of the internet that determines a battle victor!" -Brian Wheeler, Lead PvP Designer.


Edited by Soulece, 19 December 2013 - 06:11 PM.

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#29 thatguywhohasausername

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:05 PM

Do you have to use a staff to cast spells?

#30 Soulece

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:07 PM

Do you have to use a staff to cast spells?

No, you do not need a staff to cast spells.

#31 Lazertag

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:20 PM

Well, yeah. Sure you can defeat larger groups on the open battlefield with good kiting and focus targetting and just communicating well. You couldn't bomb stacked up zergs in front of a keep door, though. Zerging players wouldnt have to pay any attention, they could just mindlessly stack up everywhere and win a lot more engagements based on that fact. Think about it. Clumping up helps so much with buff synergies and healing, it's a tremendous advantage. Zergs have the numbers anyway, I don't see any reason whatsoever making them even stronger by adjusting the combat system in their favor.

 

If AoE spells hit unlimited enemies (if they're in the AoE zone), zerging players would have to pay attention and bad play could be punished alot better.

 

 

 

As mentioned by Brian, Small group AvA is completely viable and he has seen small groups tear apart large groups all the time. Even if there is a cap on AoE, it doesn't mean that small group AvA is not viable. The combat in ESO is much different than in GW2 or DAOC. Ultimately, we know that Small organized groups can take on large zerg groups, so that is the most important question most people have been asking about AvA in ESO.

 

Edit: Here's a quote from one of his answers yesterday.

 

"We've been working diligently to find those sweet spot ratios and abilities to make it so small groups (4 players or so) can have the opportunity to take out larger groups (8-12 or more depending on the group make up) but it is a tough balance point to strike.  I can say from roaming around in small groups during our internal tests and Betas, that 2-4 player well coordinated groups have picked apart larger groups of players but then I've also been steamrolled in the exact same situation so it's a matter of who you're up against at the time and the players on the other side of the internet that determines a battle victor!" -Brian Wheeler, Lead PvP Designer.



#32 Soulece

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:57 PM

Well, yeah. Sure you can defeat larger groups on the open battlefield with good kiting and focus targetting and just communicating well. You couldn't bomb stacked up zergs in front of a keep door, though. Zerging players wouldnt have to pay any attention, they could just mindlessly stack up everywhere and win a lot more engagements based on that fact. Think about it. Clumping up helps so much with buff synergies and healing, it's a tremendous advantage. Zergs have the numbers anyway, I don't see any reason whatsoever making them even stronger by adjusting the combat system in their favor.

 

If AoE spells hit unlimited enemies (if they're in the AoE zone), zerging players would have to pay attention and bad play could be punished alot better.

But then the reverse will happen for those defending the keep. If AoEs hit unlimited enemies, the zerging players would start having to pay attention but the defenders would stop having to pay attention. Defenders could just mindlessly spam AoE's, overlapping them over a chokepoint and making any chance to entering the chokepoint impossible.

 

But then that brings us to another thing Brian said:

 

"This was mentioned in another question earlier and while small groups can take on larger groups, finding that balance point is something we've been working on for quite some time to give starting players and veteran players they have the option to play how they want to at any given time and have fun. We've seen these smaller groups come out after players get their feet wet and familiar with the game and tactics, and I'm happy to report that I've seen a group of 6-8 players hold off waves of 40 or more at upper levels of Keeps which is exactly what they were designed to do.  Eventually they lost, but it proved that small groups can win if coordinated...it just takes a bit of time to develop those tactics."

 

The upper levels of the keeps are designed to help smaller numbers of players to hold off large numbers of players. This helps prevent only zergfests as a viable strategy.


Edited by Soulece, 19 December 2013 - 10:58 PM.


#33 Lazertag

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 07:37 AM

But then the reverse will happen for those defending the keep. If AoEs hit unlimited enemies, the zerging players would start having to pay attention but the defenders would stop having to pay attention. Defenders could just mindlessly spam AoE's, overlapping them over a chokepoint and making any chance to entering the chokepoint impossible.

 

But then that brings us to another thing Brian said:

 

"This was mentioned in another question earlier and while small groups can take on larger groups, finding that balance point is something we've been working on for quite some time to give starting players and veteran players they have the option to play how they want to at any given time and have fun. We've seen these smaller groups come out after players get their feet wet and familiar with the game and tactics, and I'm happy to report that I've seen a group of 6-8 players hold off waves of 40 or more at upper levels of Keeps which is exactly what they were designed to do.  Eventually they lost, but it proved that small groups can win if coordinated...it just takes a bit of time to develop those tactics."

 

The upper levels of the keeps are designed to help smaller numbers of players to hold off large numbers of players. This helps prevent only zergfests as a viable strategy.

 

No, they couldn't (overlap AoEs on a chokepoint and spam them). The resource system doesn't allow it, you can cast a few AoEs, but you can't close off an area forever. At most, smaller groups defending a keep could hold off a zerg for a few minutes (as Brian describes in his answer), but certainly not "forever". Looking at abilities like the DK pull, you have to pay attention anyway all the time as a defender.

 

Look at Dark Age of Camelot: The game didn't have an AoE cap (and by the way, I don't think ESO will either) and everything worked out just fine. Smaller groups had appropriate tools to deal with a mindless zerg, keep sieges were a lot of fun and the zerg won most of the time anyway because of the numbers.



#34 Soulece

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 06:10 AM

No, they couldn't (overlap AoEs on a chokepoint and spam them). The resource system doesn't allow it, you can cast a few AoEs, but you can't close off an area forever. At most, smaller groups defending a keep could hold off a zerg for a few minutes (as Brian describes in his answer), but certainly not "forever". Looking at abilities like the DK pull, you have to pay attention anyway all the time as a defender.

 

Look at Dark Age of Camelot: The game didn't have an AoE cap (and by the way, I don't think ESO will either) and everything worked out just fine. Smaller groups had appropriate tools to deal with a mindless zerg, keep sieges were a lot of fun and the zerg won most of the time anyway because of the numbers.

Where is the reference that says you can only cast a few AoEs? I'm assuming you are basing that assumption on DAOC.

 

As I've mentioned before, what works in DAOC does not necessarily work in ESO. They are two completely different games. They don't even have the same combat system. To say "X system won't work in ESO because it didn't work in DAOC" is a little overreaching imo. As I mentioned before, whether or not there is an AoE cap and if it make or breaks small groups is moot anyhow, because your main concern about small groups not being viable has been answered. Small group play is completely viable in ESO and small groups can take out large groups.



#35 Lazertag

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 09:47 AM

Where is the reference that says you can only cast a few AoEs? I'm assuming you are basing that assumption on DAOC.

 

As I've mentioned before, what works in DAOC does not necessarily work in ESO. They are two completely different games. They don't even have the same combat system. To say "X system won't work in ESO because it didn't work in DAOC" is a little overreaching imo. As I mentioned before, whether or not there is an AoE cap and if it make or breaks small groups is moot anyhow, because your main concern about small groups not being viable has been answered. Small group play is completely viable in ESO and small groups can take out large groups.

 

Im basing that on the theorycrafting known about the game so far. It uses a resource system which means you have to pay stamina or magicka for your spells and attacks. There is no global cooldown in this game and no cooldowns generally, so this means that the limit on how many spells you can cast is determined by the amount of magicka you have. Naturally, this is going to be somewhat limited, so it's not going to be possible to just endlessly spam AoE abilities to close off certain areas.

 

Yes, you're right. DAoC and ESO are different games and use very different combat systems. They do have one thing in common, though: The PvP system. It's basically identical if you look at how Cyrodiil works compared to the Old and New Frontiers in DAoC: A territorial conflict with 3 involved Alliances at war with each other and a lot of players in one zone that try to kill each other and raid keeps. Plus DAoC had one thing that ESO will never have: long duration crowd control spells: In DAoC you could mesmerize enemies for up to one minute and if they didn't have the counter ability to that ready (purge, which had a 30 minute cooldown) they were mezzed for the full duration. What does that mean now for our discussion? Well, it means that in DAoC AoEing was insanely strong and a lot stronger than it is in ESO simply because of the fact that you could AoE mesmerize stacked up enemies making them completely vulnerable to AoE attacks. So if a zerg stacked up in front of a keep door and you landed an AoE mezz on top of them you had all the time in the world to go in there and pbaoe the hell out of them and they couldn't do a thing about it.

 

You see what I'm trying to say here? Even though AoEing was so strong in DAoC (no AoE cap and AoE mezz spells) it worked out just fine and the balance between zerging and small group warfare was really, really good. So if anything, DAoC would have "deserved" an AoE cap and not ESO. You don't have AoE mesmerize spells in ESO, it is a lot easier to break out of crowd control effects so, naturally, it is a lot easier to dodge AoE attacks. Why would anyone want to implement an AoE cap on top of that? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever and makes zerging insanely overpowered.

 

And no, the argument isn't "moot" at all. I think we're talking about two entirely different things here: What you're refering to is open field combat: small groups fighting slightly bigger groups of enemies. 4-6 vs. let's say 10-15. Yea, Brian answered that, I'm aware. And yea, AoE capping wouldn't affect that too much, correct aswell. I'm not talking about that, though. I'm talking about taking out stacked up zergs with a small group of coordinated people. That's an entirely different thing and AoE capping would strongly affect that. As I said: zerging players wouldn't need to worry about anything, they would have an unnatural advantage given to them by the combat system. Which is wrong in so many ways. And which would make zerging so insanely strong that it makes smaller groups become desperate over time.


Edited by Lazertag, 21 December 2013 - 09:50 AM.


#36 Soulece

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:14 PM

Im basing that on the theorycrafting known about the game so far. It uses a resource system which means you have to pay stamina or magicka for your spells and attacks. There is no global cooldown in this game and no cooldowns generally, so this means that the limit on how many spells you can cast is determined by the amount of magicka you have. Naturally, this is going to be somewhat limited, so it's not going to be possible to just endlessly spam AoE abilities to close off certain areas.

 

Yes, however you then have to take into account how vast they made their magicka pool, which they could have spent all their points into so they could be a dedicated AOE dealer. Then you have to take into account enchantments you put on your gear. They could stack Magicka regeneration enchantments and that could possibly allow them to have enough magicka and magicka regeneration to regen an AOE spells magicka quick enough to sustain AOE spells for minutes or if everything falls into place for the mage, indefinitely. Oh and I forgot that there could be some skill line perks that reduce the costs of the AOE spells as well.

 

Yes, you're right. DAoC and ESO are different games and use very different combat systems. They do have one thing in common, though: The PvP system. It's basically identical if you look at how Cyrodiil works compared to the Old and New Frontiers in DAoC: A territorial conflict with 3 involved Alliances at war with each other and a lot of players in one zone that try to kill each other and raid keeps. Plus DAoC had one thing that ESO will never have: long duration crowd control spells: In DAoC you could mesmerize enemies for up to one minute and if they didn't have the counter ability to that ready (purge, which had a 30 minute cooldown) they were mezzed for the full duration. What does that mean now for our discussion? Well, it means that in DAoC AoEing was insanely strong and a lot stronger than it is in ESO simply because of the fact that you could AoE mesmerize stacked up enemies making them completely vulnerable to AoE attacks. So if a zerg stacked up in front of a keep door and you landed an AoE mezz on top of them you had all the time in the world to go in there and pbaoe the hell out of them and they couldn't do a thing about it.

 

Yes, ESO's AvA is similar to RvR (but not identical). However, even if ESO's AvA was exactly like RvR, the fact that the combat systems are completely different, it right off the bat changes how AvA will play in comparison to RvR.

 

 It doesn't make any sense whatsoever and makes zerging insanely overpowered.

 

 It would probably make zerging insanely overpowered in DAOC, however, it doesn't necessarily make zerging insanely overpowered in ESO. As was mentioned, Brian said small coordinated groups can take out zerg groups not only in the field but also in the keep.

 

And no, the argument isn't "moot" at all. I think we're talking about two entirely different things here: What you're refering to is open field combat: small groups fighting slightly bigger groups of enemies. 4-6 vs. let's say 10-15. Yea, Brian answered that, I'm aware. And yea, AoE capping wouldn't affect that too much, correct aswell. I'm not talking about that, though. I'm talking about taking out stacked up zergs with a small group of coordinated people. That's an entirely different thing and AoE capping would strongly affect that. As I said: zerging players wouldn't need to worry about anything, they would have an unnatural advantage given to them by the combat system. Which is wrong in so many ways. And which would make zerging so insanely strong that it makes smaller groups become desperate over time.

 

 

"When players first enter Cyrodiil in our Beta's, safety in numbers is the way they go...to start. After a few nights, their tactics evolve and they learn that smaller groups are indeed quite effective in the war not only tactically, but also for fighting other players in the open field.  This was mentioned in another question earlier and while small groups can take on larger groups, finding that balance point is something we've been working on for quite some time to give starting players and veteran players they have the option to play how they want to at any given time and have fun. We've seen these smaller groups come out after players get their feet wet and familiar with the game and tactics, and I'm happy to report that I've seen a group of 6-8 players hold off waves of 40 or more at upper levels of Keeps which is exactly what they were designed to do.  Eventually they lost, but it proved that small groups can win if coordinated...it just takes a bit of time to develop those tactics. " - Brian Wheeler

 

 


Edited by Soulece, 21 December 2013 - 05:18 PM.


#37 Lazertag

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 07:52 PM

 

Im basing that on the theorycrafting known about the game so far. It uses a resource system which means you have to pay stamina or magicka for your spells and attacks. There is no global cooldown in this game and no cooldowns generally, so this means that the limit on how many spells you can cast is determined by the amount of magicka you have. Naturally, this is going to be somewhat limited, so it's not going to be possible to just endlessly spam AoE abilities to close off certain areas.

 

Yes, however you then have to take into account how vast they made their magicka pool, which they could have spent all their points into so they could be a dedicated AOE dealer. Then you have to take into account enchantments you put on your gear. They could stack Magicka regeneration enchantments and that could possibly allow them to have enough magicka and magicka regeneration to regen an AOE spells magicka quick enough to sustain AOE spells for minutes or if everything falls into place for the mage, indefinitely. Oh and I forgot that there could be some skill line perks that reduce the costs of the AOE spells as well.

 

Yes, you're right. DAoC and ESO are different games and use very different combat systems. They do have one thing in common, though: The PvP system. It's basically identical if you look at how Cyrodiil works compared to the Old and New Frontiers in DAoC: A territorial conflict with 3 involved Alliances at war with each other and a lot of players in one zone that try to kill each other and raid keeps. Plus DAoC had one thing that ESO will never have: long duration crowd control spells: In DAoC you could mesmerize enemies for up to one minute and if they didn't have the counter ability to that ready (purge, which had a 30 minute cooldown) they were mezzed for the full duration. What does that mean now for our discussion? Well, it means that in DAoC AoEing was insanely strong and a lot stronger than it is in ESO simply because of the fact that you could AoE mesmerize stacked up enemies making them completely vulnerable to AoE attacks. So if a zerg stacked up in front of a keep door and you landed an AoE mezz on top of them you had all the time in the world to go in there and pbaoe the hell out of them and they couldn't do a thing about it.

 

Yes, ESO's AvA is similar to RvR (but not identical). However, even if ESO's AvA was exactly like RvR, the fact that the combat systems are completely different, it right off the bat changes how AvA will play in comparison to RvR.

 

 It doesn't make any sense whatsoever and makes zerging insanely overpowered.

 

 It would probably make zerging insanely overpowered in DAOC, however, it doesn't necessarily make zerging insanely overpowered in ESO. As was mentioned, Brian said small coordinated groups can take out zerg groups not only in the field but also in the keep.

 

And no, the argument isn't "moot" at all. I think we're talking about two entirely different things here: What you're refering to is open field combat: small groups fighting slightly bigger groups of enemies. 4-6 vs. let's say 10-15. Yea, Brian answered that, I'm aware. And yea, AoE capping wouldn't affect that too much, correct aswell. I'm not talking about that, though. I'm talking about taking out stacked up zergs with a small group of coordinated people. That's an entirely different thing and AoE capping would strongly affect that. As I said: zerging players wouldn't need to worry about anything, they would have an unnatural advantage given to them by the combat system. Which is wrong in so many ways. And which would make zerging so insanely strong that it makes smaller groups become desperate over time.

 

 

"When players first enter Cyrodiil in our Beta's, safety in numbers is the way they go...to start. After a few nights, their tactics evolve and they learn that smaller groups are indeed quite effective in the war not only tactically, but also for fighting other players in the open field.  This was mentioned in another question earlier and while small groups can take on larger groups, finding that balance point is something we've been working on for quite some time to give starting players and veteran players they have the option to play how they want to at any given time and have fun. We've seen these smaller groups come out after players get their feet wet and familiar with the game and tactics, and I'm happy to report that I've seen a group of 6-8 players hold off waves of 40 or more at upper levels of Keeps which is exactly what they were designed to do.  Eventually they lost, but it proved that small groups can win if coordinated...it just takes a bit of time to develop those tactics. " - Brian Wheeler

 

 

 

 

If someone puts all her or his points into magicka, that's a commitment. It means you have to make sacrifices on other ends and will have very little health so you'll die very quickly. It's a tradeoff. The whole system is, really. The great thing about it, is, though, that you can design your character the way you wish. If someone goes all in, he should be really good at that. And yea, there's magicka increasing talents and probably also enchants, but I would be surprised if you could close off an area forever.

 

Again: Yea, the combat systems are different. Only relying on that fact alone when trying to defend AoE capping makes a very weak argument. You should look at how the systems are different. And if you'd do that, you would see that in DAoC you had a lot more options available to deal with a zerg than just pure area of effect damage: Long time crowd control spells, permanent speed enhancing buffs, no fast travel chain (as in Cyrodiil), a more structured combat system, slower-paced gameplay. So AoE capping would make zergs stronger in DAoC, but not even remotely close to how strong it would make them in ESO (Because they're naturally stronger because there's less tools to deal with them).

 

See, if you have two systems in which zerging is a possibility, you have to look at what tools players have dealing with the zerg. Let's say system A offers 5 tools and system B offers 2 tools. Then you buff zergs by capping AoE spells. Question: In which system the playstyle zerging will remain more viable? System A or system B ? Exactly.

 

Again: Yes, Brian did speak on the topic "small, organized groups vs. zergs". We know that now, you don't have to bring it up every single time. No one is denying that. But it's not the point. The point is: The question "Will AoE abilities have a cap of players they can hit?" was asked several times and was not answered. That's what I'm talking about here, and have been all the time, really.


Edited by Lazertag, 22 December 2013 - 07:56 PM.


#38 Soulece

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:34 PM

If someone puts all her or his points into magicka, that's a commitment. It means you have to make sacrifices on other ends and will have very little health so you'll die very quickly. It's a tradeoff. The whole system is, really. The great thing about it, is, though, that you can design your character the way you wish. If someone goes all in, he should be really good at that. And yea, there's magicka increasing talents and probably also enchants, but I would be surprised if you could close off an area forever.

 

This is another great thing I like about ESO and TES in general. You can specialize yourself to a certain role if you wish. For instance, if they dump all their points into magicka, magicka reducing talents and enchantments and so on and make themselves a walking aoe turret but they are as frail as glass. A system of checks and balances always seems to work better than trying to balance classes around each other.

 

Again: Yea, the combat systems are different. Only relying on that fact alone when trying to defend AoE capping makes a very weak argument. You should look at how the systems are different. And if you'd do that, you would see that in DAoC you had a lot more options available to deal with a zerg than just pure area of effect damage: Long time crowd control spells, permanent speed enhancing buffs, no fast travel chain (as in Cyrodiil), a more structured combat system, slower-paced gameplay. So AoE capping would make zergs stronger in DAoC, but not even remotely close to how strong it would make them in ESO (Because they're naturally stronger because there's less tools to deal with them).

 

True, so let's break down what will help fight zerging in ESO. ESO doesn't have the long CC effects, however, ESO has siege equipment that can be re-purposed to fight crowds of enemies. Then of course, we have as of yet disclosed AOE effects, defenders have a quick source of reinforcements by fast travel network to their keep while the enemy zerg group does not. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "more structured combat system" however. Perhaps you can elaborate?

 

See, if you have two systems in which zerging is a possibility, you have to look at what tools players have dealing with the zerg. Let's say system A offers 5 tools and system B offers 2 tools. Then you buff zergs by capping AoE spells. Question: In which system the playstyle zerging will remain more viable? System A or system B ? Exactly.

 

Again: Yes, Brian did speak on the topic "small, organized groups vs. zergs". We know that now, you don't have to bring it up every single time. No one is denying that. But it's not the point. The point is: The question "Will AoE abilities have a cap of players they can hit?" was asked several times and was not answered. That's what I'm talking about here, and have been all the time, really.

 

But whether or not small, organized groups can beat zergs is the point. When I ask why capping AoE spells matters, the answer from you and others is invariably "because if they are capped, Zerging will be the only viable playstyle". However, Brian has made it clear that zergs are not the only option as small groups can destroy zerg groups. Also, he has mentioned that as people get more experience in AvA, they tend to stray away from zerging, though zerging still exists and has it's place in certain situations.



#39 Arxkanite

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:43 AM

I don't think people truly believe that it's going to be a zerg-only type game. They are just worried that the developers might make it that way and voice their own frustration as though it was.

#40 Soulece

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:58 AM

I suppose it's reasonable to be skeptical or worried about the quality of an MMO after so many "failed" MMOs that have popped up over the last several years. All we can really go on is the developer's word about the situation until the NDA is lifted on the beta.

 

Also, to anyone that hasn't checked back to the Q&A thread, Brian has replied to several questions that he didn't manage to get to a few days ago. You should head over there and check them out.






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