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#1 MysticalOS

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:11 AM

Rules will be enforced less strictly in this thread.  Hopefully people will be mature and contribute and I won't have to moderate here at all.  Things that are specifically allowed here but not elsewhere include wishlisting, armchair design, feelings and reactions, conjecture, and opinion.  Discussion is as always open to theorycrafting and game play, but things like art that are normally off topic are also included.

 

Posters still need to use clear and polite language.  And while the objective quality of post content won't be enforced here, posts still do have to have content.  "Here is how I feel about this feature, and why" is a good post.  "I am happy / sad / angry about this feature and am / am not going to resub because of it" is not a good post.

 

This thread will be locked at the end of the beta when the expansion goes live.  Have fun!



#2 Nevernite

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:31 AM

I do really hope that they won't scrap Healing Sphere as announced. I love that Spell - in every spec.

 

edit// oh well,.. sorry should have looked at the alpha patch notes first. Healing Sphere gehts more or less replaced by Surging Mist.
Oh noes.. And even scraping Clash. What do you guys think about that? Is Brewmaster mobility too high? Personally I am using Clash almost everytime on cooldown if the encounter has many mobs. Not only for the stun, but for the utility getting your Brewmaster faster to a location and controlling mobs.  For example the Galakras fight.

On one hand useful to get the (not yet interrupted) Dragonmaw Tidal Shaman to Jaina's Blizzard area; on the other hand canceling the Dragonmaw Bonecrusher's Fracture Ability.


Edited by Nevernite, 07 April 2014 - 10:31 PM.

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#3 Pisshands

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:29 PM

Rather than putting it in the Brewmaster Guide, I thought I'd make some quick comments about Brewmaster removals and additions here:

 

The removals of Avert Harm and Grapple Weapon are our biggest losses, with Avert Harm being a significant personal defensive cooldown masquerading as a raid cooldown. While I don't love to see Clash go, the reality is that everything it provided was redundant. Useful, but redundant. The mob movement was redundant with Provoke, the mobility is redundant with Roll/L15 talents, the stun is redundant with L60 talents. It was still useful, but it's one of the more ineffectual losses we could have incurred, and I'm much happier to see these spells go rather than Dizzying Haze, Zen Meditation, Transcendence, or anything else that I feared would be removed.

 

On the subject of Transcendence, holy damn. It looks amazing. A 10 second cooldown on the soul split and instant Trans:Trans instead of a .5 sec cast. This is a big safety buff while kiting, and I love this change almost as much as anything else that's on the table. The Enhanced Roll is something I'll have to experience before I judge it, but I expect it's about a quarter of a second off of Roll's loss of control. That's really insignificant, but it can have some implications while kiting. Imp. Dizzying Haze is pretty meaningless.

 

The damage buffs will be inconsequential in the long run since our values are going to be tuned around them, but they will feel nice at the time we acquire them. Improved Breath of Fire won't really have any raiding implications other than that it can be applied to bosses, which is a good thing, but not a huge buff.

 

2 charges on Guard, however, is an enormous buff. It's playstyle-altering. It will let us be much more liberal in our Guard usage and make Readiness a more appealing stat. Huge. 35% Dodge Elusive Brew will be a nice buff that improves our Crit scaling further, and +20% Health from Sturdy Ox will improve our Stamina and Mastery scaling and put us at a more equitable starting point with other tanks, HP-wise. With how well our EH against physical sources scales via Mastery, I really like how the Sturdy Ox buff is going to improve our EH against spells, particularly if the spell damage Stagger talent makes it through to release.



#4 Hinalover

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 06:00 PM

From a Windwalker perspective, We now know that our damage from Fists of Fury is double now (240% in total buff with the Enhanced Fists of Fury). On top of that We have the Glyph of the Floating Butterfly which removes the stun but allows us to use FoF while moving. Between the two of these we will WANT to prioritize FoF almost above all else. Now there are a few caviats to that though. We still will want to make sure that TP and RSK's debuff doesn't fall off and to not energy cap from FoF but otherwise we WANT to use FoF now.

 

As for talents right now Hurricane strike seems EXTREMELY good right now for single target. Currently it's doing more damage than FoF every 45 seconds. If the damage stays the same, we could prioritize that over FoF. Chi Serenity could be almost just as good as Hurricane strike since we will want to have 3-4 Chi going into it then RSK, BoK, BoK, BoK, BoK, RSK, FoF. Nice bit of burst every 90 seconds. Chi Explosion on the other hand seems more geared for AoE fights since we will be doing Blackout Kick style damage to a whole group of mobs with it.

 

Finally it's great now that SEF is off the GCD. I cannot tell the number of times I've clipped trying to cast SEF due to the GCD.



#5 Taser

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:36 PM

The removals of Avert Harm and Grapple Weapon are our biggest losses, with Avert Harm being a significant personal defensive cooldown masquerading as a raid cooldown.

 

The problem with these spells is/was that 90% of the players do not seem to use them. IMHO that is because they have no idea how good they actually are.

 

Surging Mist being the replacement for Healing Spheres is a little bit more concerning. BM have EH as emergency heal. But I loved playing with the Spheres in certain encounters. Having to hardcast a 1.5 sec heal is not really a good thing as a tank. But we will see how it will turn out in practice. Maybe starting the cast before the big nuke hits. At least the scaling should be better.

 

It seems they got the initial scaling issues of Chi Explosion under control. But I am still very interested in the actual numbers. For BM it still will be of low interest as it replaces BOK as Shuffle builder while not allowing chi pooling for PB or Guard. Especially with the 2 charges managing resources to optimally use Guard will be very important at the start of the xpac. Chi Explosion can be quite powerful, but it will not be easy to use properly.



#6 Nevernite

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:02 PM

Surging Mist being the replacement for Healing Spheres is a little bit more concerning. BM have EH as emergency heal. But I loved playing with the Spheres in certain encounters. Having to hardcast a 1.5 sec heal is not really a good thing as a tank. But we will see how it will turn out in practice. Maybe starting the cast before the big nuke hits. At least the scaling should be better.

 

Yep, I agree. In the Immerseus fight I liked placing 3 beside me and just use them +EH after the Corrosive Blast instead of using Guard. I also used them alot to heal raid members while offtanking or for myself inbetween Iron Juggernaut mines (pre casting them airborne). While healing the raid members is still possible with Surging Mist, the other things I mentioned aren't.

I am afraid I'll lose interest in playing the BrewMaster without beeing able to do such things.

 

It seems they got the initial scaling issues of Chi Explosion under control. But I am still very interested in the actual numbers. For BM it still will be of low interest as it replaces BOK as Shuffle builder while not allowing chi pooling for PB or Guard. Especially with the 2 charges managing resources to optimally use Guard will be very important at the start of the xpac. Chi Explosion can be quite powerful, but it will not be easy to use properly.

 

They are going way too crazy with this Button Bloat thing. I'll announce now that I'll NEVER use Chi Explosion if it completely replaces BoK(atleast not as WW/BrM - maybe as MW). Unless I could choose this talent and still be able to use either BoK or ChiEx. It completely destroys the point of chi management.. I just can't believe someone suggested ChiEx to replace BoK via twitter and Blizzard really thought "Hey that would be a great idea - Brewmaster don't need to pool chi for guards anyway..." It is just dumb. Chi Serenity, the 100 talent on the right side, is a spell on its own. If people want to use Chi Serenity they still need to have a free button for it anyways. And as people can't have Chi Serenity and Chi Explosion at the same time - why not give ChiEx its own button(could share buttons with Chi Serenity like the mage bombs use to), without replacing BoK?

 

In the case of an WindWalker you could atleast argue: 'Well, the damage from ChiEx outshines Fists of Fury AND is instant.' (ignoring the fact that you may want to Tiger Palm after the ChiEx to refresh TigerPower, but have no Chi).

 

Okay, it depends on the encounter design in WoD, but in my opinion one of the worst things is the uncontrolled cleave.

The legendary procs wiped us more than once at Garrosh, because we wanted to kite the last add wave but random cleave aoe snowballed hard there. But as I said, it depends on the encounter. If Blizzard takes note of that and makes it so, that cleave is NEVER bad, then it could turn out ok.

 

I already see wipes caused by Chi Explosion because some derp monk did AoE damage to the wrong target.(because they happen to be uncapable of doing singletarget damage, if they have to too much chi)

 

I really do hope Blizzard stumbles over this and overthinks, whether it would be a good ida for ChiEx to replace BoK or not.

 

Sorry for the little rant, but I really do hate if the game TAKES AWAY control over my charakter. (backwards teleport after frostnova for mages would be such an example also)

 

edit//  I accidentally some words. I make way too many grammar mistakes :S

 

Also I forgot to add above: Using up 4 Chi with Chi Explosion only gives 10 seconds of shuffle compared to 2*BoK's 12 seconds. If damage is irrelevant and only the defensive value of shuffle counts, then 2 BoK's are better.


Edited by Nevernite, 07 April 2014 - 10:39 PM.

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#7 Veritae

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:10 AM

Hi, I cant wait for soul dance talent for brewmaster... finally we get some cool stuff against spell dmg (yes i know we had glyph of guard and some other utilities like diffuse magic) but i think this will be more comfortable and i can choose if i make my guard only for magical dmg or for physical without bigger problems agaist magical dmg if it isnt really bursty .. and still there is diffuse.

About chi explosion i dont think i will choose that talent because as Nevernite mentioned 2x BOK is better in that way i can control my chi (and i like to save some chi for guard).

The last new talent looks like good shuffle builder in combat but i dont think there is a big problem to build shuffle without it. Maybe there will be some bosses where you loose it completely and you will have to build it asap so picking that talent will be good. But i will prioritize soul dance over chi serenity cause it fits to my playstyle better. 



#8 Nevernite

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:13 PM

About chi explosion i dont think i will choose that talent because as Nevernite mentioned 2x BOK is better in that way i can control my chi (and i like to save some chi for guard).

2 seconds more Shuffle - but keep in mind that doesn't take the purify into account.

 

Also as Hinalover already said: As WindWalkers we WANT to Fist of Fury on cooldown if possible. That won't be possible with ChiExplosion also. Atleast not optimally. Either you use up all your Chi with ChiEx and have to build up the needed Chi for the next FoF exactly prior it and maybe waste some precious seconds having FoF sitting there not on cooldown (dmg loss) - OR wait with all your Chi if you see it is time for an FoF, but while waiting energycapping is a possibility and a theoretical dmg loss.

 

Also looks like Ring of Peace won't be used in raids anymore, unless you are kiting or your raid really is just doing single target damage, since the incapacitate effect breaks on damage. No defensive value while AoEing down a pack of mobs.

Pure PvP-only talent now?


Edited by Nevernite, 08 April 2014 - 04:43 PM.

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#9 Taser

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:54 PM

For WW ChiEX would just be the Chi-dump if everything else was on cooldown. Prioritising RSK + FoF, TP mostly with CB and dumping as much Chi in ChiEX as possible. Even possible that WW will want to use ChiEX exactly at 3 Chi as you get X dmg/Chi + an additional TEB-stack. But that needs to be calculated. 

 

BM, on the other hand, need to manage their Chi for suvival. We have 1 Chi-builder with 2 and the rest with 1 Chi. Think of having 1 Chi and KS coming off CD. That would be 3 Chi. Either we spent that 1 Chi for a potentially worthless PB or 3 Chi on ChiEX including a potentially worthless PB. Using ChiEX in a singletarget encounter could result in a lot of wasted chi that way and maybe being chi starved when you need to guard.

 

ChiEX as a talent needs to be stronger than BoK. There must be something more to be appealing to the players. And this little extra needs to be quite equal to 30% magic stagger and 10sec free chi. As it is clearly not utility it can only be DPS. Maybe BoK-dmg per 1 Chi or something. In its current state there is not a single encounter in Pandaria where I would choose ChiEX over the other talents. Chi Serenity can also be really great AOE as you could BoF, BoK, BoK, BoK, BoF, BoK, BoK, BoK, BoF as well. Maybe including a KS somewhere. After that you still have about 20-30sec of shuffle.



#10 Hinalover

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:47 AM

I can see ChiEX mostly used for add fights where we are AOEing like mad and need something to dump our chi.



#11 Nevernite

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:50 AM

I know the primary target of FoF now always gets the full damage regardless of other mobs around, but do we know if the cleave portion of FoF also goes to our primary target if NO other mobs are present? If not, it would mean we would want to always hit a minimum of two targets with FoF(if possible) to maximize its damage potential(essentially doubling it if the cleave also does 100% damage but is shared between secondary targets).

 

Also another thing I asked myself is, whether our SEF clones will also benefit from the multistrike bonus while using Energizing Brew? I look forward to seeing SEF off the GCD, but actually seeing which target they attack is kinda hard.

I think a debuff like "is attacked by a spirit" or something like that on the targets would be neat, but maybe not simple to implement. For me >this addon< with sound feedback and clone unit frames mostly did the job, but I see how a debuff would work great with other addons for tracking purposes.

 

Guess I should get a twitter account rolling...


Edited by Nevernite, 11 April 2014 - 03:00 AM.

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#12 Shuror

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 05:26 AM

I know the primary target of FoF now always gets the full damage regardless of other mobs around, but do we know if the cleave portion of FoF also goes to our primary target if NO other mobs are present? If not, it would mean we would want to always hit a minimum of two targets with FoF(if possible) to maximize its damage potential(essentially doubling it if the cleave also does 100% damage but is shared between secondary targets).

As I understand, n targets means that everyone gets 1/n of the damage, except the main targets which gets the full damage. So the total damage is

 

(n-1)/n + 1 = 2 - 1/n

 

Which means that total damage is going to be 100%, 150%, 167%, 175%, and so on, for one, two, three, four..., targets.



#13 Nevernite

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 01:33 PM

The question is whether the main target counts towards the amount of n targets or not since it is marked as an exception.

So if you are right, that would mean the main target is included in the calculation for the cleave portion but doesn't get the cleave damage,so  we lose 1/n of damage on the main target. Implying that we'll want to FoF on even more targets if possible, since the higher n gets the smaller the 1/n of damage gets that we lose. But why am I narrating the obvious - it says so already in your formula.

 

My previous thought process was that the cleave portion still does 1/n to every target, but that the main target doesn't count towards the cleave portion (hence the amount of n) at all, which would mean 100% for one target  and 200% for 2+ targets.

 

damn I am so curious. :D I played to much BrM, want some WW fun again.


Edited by Nevernite, 12 April 2014 - 01:57 PM.

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#14 Senka Keiyan

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:45 AM

Well, think of hitting only two targets.  Fists of Fury must do 100% damage to the first target.  If that target didn't count for splitting, FoF would do 100% to the second target as well.  But that can't be because the tooltip says damage is reduced against all targets other than your primary target.  Therefore, the primary target must count for the split.  Still, the more targets you hit, the more damage that Fists of Fury will do.  It's a funny turnaround from now.

 

Anyway, this is all assuming the damage will actually split evenly among other targets.  After all, the tooltip technically doesn't say the damage will be split evenly like it says in Mists.  A long time ago I read a Wowhead comment about Dragon Roar, and its damage reduction against multiple targets is... weird, to say the least, even considering the AoE damage caps at 10+ targets: http://www.wowhead.c...ents:id=1866750

 

What I'm also interested in is how the game will determine "primary target" because the skill doesn't lock on or chain like Cleave or Chain Lightning.

 

Oh also, for Chi Explosion... well, you probably are already taking it into consideration, but remember Windwalker Mastery will almost certainly affect a 3+ Chi use of Chi Explosion.


Edited by Senka Keiyan, 15 April 2014 - 08:01 AM.


#15 Nevernite

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 11:15 PM

Surely primary target is the one you are targeting? And if you are FoFing without targeting you'll be punished and don't get the 100% damage on one mob ;) I don't know, we will see.

 

No matter how I look at it but I don't like this poor design of ChiEx replacing BoK. Adressing the 3+ Chi use of ChiEx as WW here are my thoughts: Without actual data of how much attack power we have @lvl100 we don't know whether ChiEx trumps BoK even in single target damage - but for simplicity's sake lets asume exactly that(everything mentioned is aimed for single target damage):

A WW monk who chooses ChiEx for single target would certainly try to not use a 4-ChiEx since, the fourth bonus gets wasted on not needed AoE. Also since the damage per Chi scales linear there is no diffrence in damage of using four times a 3-ChiEx or using three times a 4-ChiEx. Also we could use that single 4th Chi more in another 3-ChiEx to maximize TEB generation. Every third 4-ChiEx is a wasted TEB stack. Just to toss some numbers out: While the direct and DoT damage on using 4* 3-ChiEx and 3* 4-ChiEx are the same; the former gets 4 TEB - the latter 3TEB.

To maximize TEB stacks a WW will always want to use a 3-ChiEx. But since ChiEx will soak ALL your Chi, you can't really control whether you'll use 3 Chi or 4 Chi. Lets even assume we won't have Combo Breaker proccs AND would not have to refresh TP either. We are just uncapable of always pulling off two 3-ChiEx's in a row since our Jab already generates 2 Chi if used. And I guarantee there will be moments, where we don't have to refresh TP, RSK and FoF are on CD and we don't have any Combo Breaker proccs.

 

But maybe exactly there could grow a gap between the bad players who'll use mostly 4-ChiEx and the skilled players who manage to juggle and manage their ressources so that they happen to use more 3-ChiEx's. Maybe even dumping the fourth Chi with Tiger Palm to get an 3-ChiEx off, if TP somehow does more damage than the single 4th Chi of ChiEx (1,5 * 135% AP= 202,5% AP).

 

Off course this talk only applies if ChiEx is viable to use for single target fights. I can't wait to get data on my hands and test this out myself.


Edited by Nevernite, 15 April 2014 - 11:57 PM.

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#16 Kraun

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:33 PM

latest from mmo-c says for WW jab is having it's cost increased by 10 energy. On top of that ascensions energy regen bonus is being lowered by 5%. Even further they are lowering the proc chance of combo breaker procs by 4%.... I see lots of energy starvation in my wind walkers future.



#17 Hinalover

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:18 PM

latest from mmo-c says for WW jab is having it's cost increased by 10 energy. On top of that ascensions energy regen bonus is being lowered by 5%. Even further they are lowering the proc chance of combo breaker procs by 4%.... I see lots of energy starvation in my wind walkers future.

 

Well according Celestalon they don't want us to be GCD capped anymore

 

https://twitter.com/...638701271928833

 

 

 

GCD-capping is the problem we're trying to solve there. You shouldn't be so restricted by GCDs. For comparison, Monks get nearly twice as many GCDs filled per energy than Rogues/Cats.

 

This just means that before we were most likely aiming for 20% haste without readiness. With the new changes, haste cap would be somewhere around 40% haste (less with readiness). Don't quote me on the 40% since I haven't ran the numbers yet but it's not likely in the first tier or two to be GCD capped. Maybe during the final tier but we will have to wait and see on that.


Edited by Hinalover, 17 April 2014 - 05:19 PM.


#18 Veritae

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 02:54 PM

Hi i looked at changes for BrM in WoD and i realised that we will go for multistrike if im right because of GotO but there is also bonus armor and mastery and crit what do you think the main stats wil be? Crit again or mastery+bonus armor because of damage output. We will have 10% more crit from spec so gaining enough crit should be easier but our damage is not stacking with vengeance as it would be redefined into resolve so should i stack bonus armor for more damage or mastery as it increase attack power. It seems im overwhelmed with stats to go. I know it isnt live but some good BrM tanks here, can you at least think about it what would you go, what do you like from these bonuses? 



#19 Nevernite

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:47 PM

Just a little list:

Bonus Armor => reduce phys. dmg taken / more AP(absorb, dmg, heal) from Bladed Armor.

Multistrike => more dmg / more GotOX / more heal

Haste => more white dmg / more GotOX / more EB / more energy(generators/spenders => dmg/mitigation/heal)

Crit => more dmg / more heal/ more EB

Mastery => spike control  / mitigation(with PB)

Amplify => more everything(Amplify was removed.)

Readyness =>  more CD's

Stamina => survivability / higher Resolve

 

I don't think we can predict exactly what we want to strive for before Blizzard finished tuning. We don't know how well the stats and resolve(with stamina) scale.

Mastery rises in value if specced into Soul Dance, but also dependant on fight. Surely in a fight were you take more physical damage you would want more crit for EB's. Depending on tuning we may even want to get Bonus Armor(over crit) where we can. Amplify gets better with better gear.

 

I think it is still too early to tell. I would want to get enough energy reg first to feel comfortable.

 

 

//edit//

WoD's encounter philosophy is: Healer's decision making is more important than reaction speed. So we get less raid damage overall, right? The raid sits more time between 0% and 100% life instead of having the need to top the raid to 100% life all the time.

My question is, whether this concerns the raid - inclusive or exclusive the tank. Since healers heal less, the tanks should also get less damage, right? So doesn't that also mean, that we get less chances to purify a red stagger DoT. First I thought that makes our mastery weaker, but compairing the dmg we purify with the heal of a healer it is about at the same level - then came to my mind: does that not also mean that our mastery becomes really strong, in that we could get even more damage than now without the danger of dying immediately, sink all the damage taken into stagger and then purify it. So that haste+mastery may become more effective than crit and EB. Speculations over speculations.

 

TL;DR Brewmaster mastery in WoD. Weaker or stronger compaired to now? Discuss! (Without knowing any of the encounters LOL)

 

edit2// Crossed out Amplify because it was removed


Edited by Nevernite, 01 May 2014 - 01:00 AM.

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#20 Pisshands

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:34 PM

Amplify was removed. We don't know the relative values of Haste, Mastery, and Crit Ratings to percentages, nor do we know their weight in gems. Consequently, we can't know their relative strength as stats, only that they will behave as they do now.







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