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Automated Guild Progress Ranking


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#21 Praetorian

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 05:57 PM

Not sure if Aspir would ever read this

Umm....

#22 Gwaihir

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 05:57 PM

It looked to me that it is giving each guild a point score for the number of their members with loot from a certain boss, so one outlying transfer might not skew the results too much? At the very least it should be obvious looking at the guild when only one person has an item from a boss 2-3 steps ahead of teir current progression.

#23 Groglox

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 05:59 PM

Absolutely, but unfortunately I couldn't think of a way to handle this. Perhaps I could look at disparity (most members in kara loot then some guy in T5, for example) but right now I just accept that server transfers could mess things up. Anyone have any suggestions here?


I would suggest maybe needing 2 -3 pieces of loot from a boss for it to show up, that way since any given boss drops X amount of loot, it would register as a kill, but hopefully weed out misnomers?

#24 Aspir

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:00 PM

Aspir:

What if a guild recruits a player who has gear from bosses higher in progression than those the guild has killed? I guess this is a corner case but to me it seems like a pretty big confounder every time it happens. For instance I can remember a player with the Dreamwalker chest-piece transferring to our server from another and joining one of the guilds which hadn't even killed Maexxna at the time. It seems that WoWJutsu's current iteration would then count that guild as having beaten everything through the Four Horsemen.

Not sure how to fix this easily, maybe you have some thoughts.

One thing to note here is that the problems mainly come in when a player server transfers. A high ranked player going from one guild to another on the same server shouldn't cause a problem. Take a look at the guild Drama from Korgath: http://www.wowjutsu....th/g-drama.html

Look down in the list to where you see the warrior named Maximum. Loot is initially attributed to the guild you were in when I first saw it, so here with Maximum I know that his pocket watch from Moroes was received while in Drama, so I don't count that loot towards the guild he is in now -- indicated after the double arrow.

#25 Pudgeball

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:00 PM

Umm....


Editing post - thread was moving too quickly :(

#26 Malan

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:01 PM

Seems to be missing some data? Multiple guilds from Sargeras that should be in the top 15 progression aren't listed at all.

#27 Charlatan

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:02 PM

This is a really neat tool. Kudos for creating it.

I'm a transfer to my current guild (but they were ahead of me so I didn't mess things up). Once it was revealed that gear was the way he was measuring progression, of course we all jumped to the conclusion that an advanced transfer could screw things up, but I think overall those bumps will be flattened out by a guild's natural progress. If that really became a big issue then you could always do the kind of logic checking that Gwaihir above mentions, or maybe aging loot so that if a guild appears to kill Al'ar (due to a transfer) they get credit but the score for that kill decays over time until they register another kill. That way a transfer would bump up a guild's score but over time it would decay to the "real" level.

But all in all, I think those are small blemishes on what is a very interesting and informative tool. And in the end it probably works out just as well to not lose any sleep as to whether or not transfers are messing the rankings up.

#28 Sinuous

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:03 PM

Already I see some errors. How does a guild who has killed two bosses in Black Temple have a lower ranking that a guild who's only killed Rage Winterchill?

I was looking at my guilds progression and it is accurate, but how are we ranked higher than Gentlemen's club, who killed bosses before us?

anyway, I think it's a neat idea, but due to armory being slow and loot getting sharded, or might be situational, could lead to inaccuracies.

But is probably a better and more accurate system than voluntary reporting.

#29 Docjowles

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:04 PM

Absolutely, but unfortunately I couldn't think of a way to handle this. Perhaps I could look at disparity (most members in kara loot then some guy in T5, for example) but right now I just accept that server transfers could mess things up. Anyone have any suggestions here?


The only solution that comes to mind is to have some sort of threshold, like three people in the guild with loot from boss X before it is considered a confirmed kill. A tool like this is never going to be 100% exact, but I'm sure you could add in a few heuristics like this that will make it "good enough".

Very cool idea, thanks for sharing.

Edit: This thread is moving too fast, at least two other people already suggested this in the time it took to type it.

#30 GokieKS

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:05 PM

A very nice site and a very cool idea... it also lets me see who in our guild took the less-than-desirable loot. =D

#31 Sarutobi

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:05 PM

Well, I know it has our progress wrong, so I'm not really sure it works :) What's the method it uses to track these things?


Same. Not to mention the guild who has had a vast majority of the server firsts on Stormreaver isn't even included on the list.

Just out of curiosity, how are the guilds that are going to be tracked selected?

Good job putting the site together, it's looking good so far. I know that took a shitload of work.

#32 frmorrison

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:06 PM

Wow, this is a neat tool, it even shows how the system knows which bosses you killed.

Since this tool parses all items, it would be interesting to see how many people in raiding guilds are wearing crafted gear.

#33 Docjowles

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:11 PM

Possible bug report: I don't see my guild appearing on the Cenarion Circle report page. Just based on my equipment alone, we should have credit for most of Karazhan and Maulgar (no comments from the peanut gallery, please). Could the silly Æ symbol in the guild name be stuffing things up? I see plenty of guilds that we're ahead of appearing, so I don't think that's the problem.

#34 Vykromond

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:11 PM

One thing to note here is that the problems mainly come in when a player server transfers. A high ranked player going from one guild to another on the same server shouldn't cause a problem. Take a look at the guild Drama from Korgath: http://www.wowjutsu....th/g-drama.html

Look down in the list to where you see the warrior named Maximum. Loot is initially attributed to the guild you were in when I first saw it, so here with Maximum I know that his pocket watch from Moroes was received while in Drama, so I don't count that loot towards the guild he is in now -- indicated after the double arrow.


I see- very cleverly done. You obviously put a lot of sweat into this and it shows, it's a great tool.

For the server transfers issue I think requiring X amount of people to have loot from a boss is the wrong approach; it's entirely possible that all but one piece was sharded in a legitimate kill. One possible alternative solution would be not to count players if their gear presents an impossible "break" with their guild. All the cases I can think of:

- Player has loot from Aran, Illhoof, Prince, Chess, or Netherspite, but no other guilded player has loot from Curator (Curator | Late Kara)
- Player has loot from Vashj but no other guilded player has loot from at least 1 SSC boss (Early SSC | Vashj)

et cetera, let me switch to diagram form:

Early Kara -> Curator | Late Kara
Maulgar | Gruul
Any SSC boss | Vashj
Any TK boss | Kael

Vashj and Kael | Rage Winterchill | Anetheron | Kaz'rogal | Azgalor | Archimonde
and
Vashj and Kael | Rage Winterchill | Naz'jentus | Supremus | Akama, Teron, Bloodboil, RoS | Shahraz | Council | Illidan


This system wouldn't cover kills of 'parallel' bosses, so if someone server transfers to a guild which has not killed Leotheras but has Leotheras loot, it won't insulate against that. Parallel bosses are so close to each other in difficulty at the early stages of raiding though that I think the margin of error would be acceptable.

#35 Aspir

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:12 PM

Same. Not to mention the guild who has had a vast majority of the server firsts on Stormreaver isn't even included on the list.

Just out of curiosity, how are the guilds that are going to be tracked selected?

Good job putting the site together, it's looking good so far. I know that took a shitload of work.

Actually Stormreaver is a realm I detected a problem with this morning. I plan to add a way for people to manually submit their guild to be indexed, but for now what I've done to generate the current guilds is pull the "top 50" alliance/horde guilds from warcraftrealms.com and use that for a seed in my database. I had messed something up with Stormreaver when I first did this where it didn't get many of the guilds.

The armory is really slow today (normally I can index a guild of ~100 players in 30-40 seconds) but hopefully it clears up late and the rest of the guilds in queue can be updated (1155 guilds in queue).

#36 Noximus

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:12 PM

Very nice site, except my guild isnt even showing at all while guilds who are still halfway into Karazhan are :P

Is it possible that the filter does not like special characters? (ie: Ã…pocalypse)


Edit: Docjowles already posted about it, and from the your post under me you're already aware of it :) - GL, Keep it up.
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#37 Aspir

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:14 PM

Possible bug report: I don't see my guild appearing on the Cenarion Circle report page. Just based on my equipment alone, we should have credit for most of Karazhan and Maulgar (no comments from the peanut gallery, please). Could the silly Æ symbol in the guild name be stuffing things up? I see plenty of guilds that we're ahead of appearing, so I don't think that's the problem.

Indeed, the Æ is screwing things up >_>

I'll try to fix this tonight, then reset all the guilds with special characters in their names so they can be reindexed.

Thanks!

#38 Zaq

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:18 PM

Just thought I'd say that this is really cool, and way faster then the armory for just checking out other raiders gear.
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#39 Wodin

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:19 PM

Whoops, wrong mob. :v:

#40 Branar

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:20 PM

Very cool, Aspir. Something I'm curious about:

Why are some guilds that have killed the same bosses ranked differently?
The minor difference in score between these guilds is based on the number of times they've killed certain bosses, or the amount of loot they've received from said bosses. This function was mainly implemented as a way to subtly sort between similar ranked guilds as opposed to just listing alphabetically.


Aren't there a few issues with that? I mean, I understand that you want a way of differentiating between a guild that's killed Hydross once and a guild that's killed Hydross 14 times and can do it with their eyes closed (but...er...for some reason hasn't progressed past that...okay, go with me here), but judging it based on "the amount of loot they've received" isn't going to be accurate if you have crappy luck with drops and stuff gets sharded.

A minor point, either way though. Fantastic website - it's really neat to take a look at my guild and see where all the loot went and stuff.




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