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Automated Guild Progress Ranking


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#41 Zophos

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:24 PM

Would you be willing to elaborate on this part of the FAQ?

The minor difference in score between these guilds is based on the number of times they've killed certain bosses, or the amount of loot they've received from said bosses. This function was mainly implemented as a way to subtly sort between similar ranked guilds as opposed to just listing alphabetically.


I'm curious to know what combination method you use for score estimation. I noticed a few times that there are "big" (about 30 points, which is about 10% for the bottom half of the Top 100) jumps in scores between guilds that have only one boss difference between them. I don't think this disrupts the general trends that much, but it would nonetheless be interesting to me (and I bet others here) if you were able and/or willing to discuss the mathematics associated with this separation.
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#42 Sarutobi

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:34 PM

Actually Stormreaver is a realm I detected a problem with this morning. I plan to add a way for people to manually submit their guild to be indexed, but for now what I've done to generate the current guilds is pull the "top 50" alliance/horde guilds from warcraftrealms.com and use that for a seed in my database. I had messed something up with Stormreaver when I first did this where it didn't get many of the guilds.


This could be a part of it, since I know there are a few alliance guilds on my server that use that and other special characters.

Could the silly Æ symbol in the guild name be stuffing things up?


Also, you say you're pulling the guilds from warcraftrealms. Would it be safe to assume then that you're selecting the guilds based on the number of active members?

Aren't there a few issues with that? I mean, I understand that you want a way of differentiating between a guild that's killed Hydross once and a guild that's killed Hydross 14 times and can do it with their eyes closed (but...er...for some reason hasn't progressed past that...okay, go with me here), but judging it based on "the amount of loot they've received" isn't going to be accurate if you have crappy luck with drops and stuff gets sharded.


That would also be an issue for bosses like the named beasts in Karazhan that really have no items of value. Most guilds, like mine, I'd assume would only kill the named beasts while starting Karazhan for a few extra shards for enchants while most of the items in Karazhan are still upgrades.

#43 Titanx

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:40 PM

Very nice tool and should definitely be more accurate than sites which require voluntary submission, since not all guilds choose to report. Grats on your work.

#44 Guest_Ailee_*

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:41 PM

Very interesting tool. I'll wait a few days before contacting you about my guild. I'll assume it's part of the queue not yet finished for now. I don't think there's really any safe or 100% way to detect transfers, especially server ones where they change their names. One thing I'd be interested in seeing is cross server rankings if you would be able to do so instead of searching 10 pages to find yourself.

#45 Starfire

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:49 PM

I notice many people are suggesting "three" for a confirm kill. I'd just like to say, I think the threshold should be 4. In theory (for most bosses anyways), 2 kills = 4 loot. Plus, that also rules out any possible fluke or bugged kills (granted, I don't think there are anymore of those... but if this tool is to be used in the future... I mean, who remembers bugged Ragnaros? no sons? or bugged Gruul with no shatters?)

#46 Ranalis

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:50 PM

This is a fantastic tool, and seems to me to be a huge step forward in guild "ranking." I don't care about the rankings so much as the wealth of information that hides behind them.

My realm also has a few issues (lol RP aside). Two guilds I happen to know should be at or near the top based on kills don't appear on the list at all - is it possible you are missing guilds entirely from the list you seeded with? One of the guilds missing has long been the most progressed on our server (at least 6 months or so) so I find it unlikely they would have been missing from your initial list. Any other way to explain missing info?

#47 Edghar

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:53 PM

This is a fantastic tool, and seems to me to be a huge step forward in guild "ranking." I don't care about the rankings so much as the wealth of information that hides behind them.

My realm also has a few issues (lol RP aside). Two guilds I happen to know should be at or near the top based on kills don't appear on the list at all - is it possible you are missing guilds entirely from the list you seeded with? One of the guilds missing has long been the most progressed on our server (at least 6 months or so) so I find it unlikely they would have been missing from your initial list. Any other way to explain missing info?


Does the mentioned guild have a non-standard character in their guild name? Scroll up to see what I mean.

#48 Llilyth

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:53 PM

I can confirm that special characters cause problems as my guild Invíctus is also missing, probably due to the second "i".

#49 Animosityftw

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:55 PM

I would suggest maybe needing 2 -3 pieces of loot from a boss for it to show up, that way since any given boss drops X amount of loot, it would register as a kill, but hopefully weed out misnomers?



I'd have to agree here. We had a transfer from a BT guild and its making us look a lot better then we are. If it were reverted to needing two pieces it would eliminate most of the unwarranted boss kills.

#50 Daenerys

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:59 PM

Very cool site!

While there are potential issues with server transfers giving credit for a boss a guild hasn't killed, I think overall those instances will be rare enough that you shouldn't worry about it. I mean, how often does a guy in T6 transfer to a guild that's still working on SSC? It's just not a common occurance at the high end of things (where people are competitive enough to care), and doing stuff like requiring X number of items from a boss before giving credit could mean that a guild doesn't get credit for their first kill, and we all know the first kill is the one people are the most proud of (and thus desire recognition for). What I'm saying is I don't think there is any pressing need to make an overly complicated system to counteract a problem that just won't come up that often.

#51 Shifft

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:00 PM

It would also remove many legitimate boss kills though. For example, this week we had our first kills of Naj'entus-Akama and Anetheron-Kaz'rogal. Out of those kills we DE'd a piece of loot off of Naj'entus and Shade of Akama, leaving us at 1 piece of loot per boss. So requiring multiple pieces of loot from a boss would take half of our progress this week out of the ranking.

I'm wondering if there's any way, once all of the guilds are archived, to find new members and remove the gear they're currently wearing from the guild's loot pool. That would certainly solve the problems with transfers.

#52 tedv

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:02 PM

My first thought: Wow, that's really cool!

My second thought: Blizzard really cares a lot about raiders!

My rough estimate says there's 75 US guilds that can even zone into Black Temple. There's maybe 200 guilds that can engage Kael'thas. Even estimating a roster of 40 raiders per guild, and a similar number of guilds with this much progress in Europe, that adds up to 6000 people in Black Temple and 16000 people who have experienced all of the first two raid instances in TBC. And WoW's subscriber base is what, 8 million active accounts? Conservatively 6 million people? Even if your guild can just kill Gruul and Magtheradon, you're doing more than 99% of the WoW player base is.

It's unbelievable the amount of resources Blizzard has devoted to gameplay that only a small subset of players are experiencing, and I'm very thankful they've gone to all this trouble for my sake. I know it's cool to bash Blizzard for being slow to fix issues in raiding. But in the grand scheme of things, we're not remotely close to their typical customer, and they still deliver us a high quality gaming experience. I really can't complain.

#53 Ranalis

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:06 PM

Does the mentioned guild have a non-standard character in their guild name? Scroll up to see what I mean.


Not as far as I know. That is why I posted - this guild seems to have been missed outside of the aforementioned constraints.

#54 Aspir

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:08 PM

]I'm curious to know what combination method you use for score estimation. I noticed a few times that there are "big" (about 30 points, which is about 10% for the bottom half of the Top 100) jumps in scores between guilds that have only one boss difference between them. I don't think this disrupts the general trends that much, but it would nonetheless be interesting to me (and I bet others here) if you were able and/or willing to discuss the mathematics associated with this separation.

The scoring system is really simple, and admittedly I'm no math whiz. Basically what I have is...

For each boss I associate two values: KillValue and DropValue. KillValue is a largish number while DropValue is a very small number. To calculate the score I get the corresponding values from each item that has dropped for a guild and then for the first item from a given boss I add in KillValue to the score, then for each additional item I add in DropValue with a decaying factor. So the points from a given boss are determined predominately by the KillValue with the DropValue only slightly adjusting the score to differentiate guilds that have killed the same bosses.

Here is a query out of my mob database for Karazhan and Gruul's Lair values, for some concrete numbers:

+------------------------+-----------+-----------+
| BossName               | KillValue | DropValue |
+------------------------+-----------+-----------+
| Rokad the Ravager      |         1 |     0.001 |
| Hyakiss the Lurker     |         1 |     0.001 |
| Shadikith the Glider   |         1 |     0.001 |
| Attumen the Huntsman   |         2 |     0.002 |
| Moroes                 |         3 |     0.003 |
| Maiden of Virtue       |         5 |     0.005 |
| Romulo & Julianne      |         4 |     0.004 |
| The Big Bad Wolf       |         4 |     0.004 |
| The Crone              |         4 |     0.004 |
| The Curator            |         5 |     0.005 |
| Terestian Illhoof      |         6 |     0.006 |
| Shade of Aran          |         6 |     0.006 |
| Netherspite            |         6 |     0.006 |
| Chess Event            |         4 |     0.004 |
| Prince Malchezaar      |         8 |     0.008 |
| Nightbane              |         8 |     0.008 |
| High King Maulgar      |        10 |     0.010 |
| Gruul the Dragonkiller |        12 |     0.012 |
+------------------------+-----------+-----------+


Also, you say you're pulling the guilds from warcraftrealms. Would it be safe to assume then that you're selecting the guilds based on the number of active members?

I was just using warcraftrealms as a place to get guild names, so I was pulling whatever they provided me, which also just so happened to be (I believe) the "largest" 50 guilds from each faction on each realm. I'll have a manual guild submission thing up at some point so people can add guilds that aren't in the list. For now they can contact me at feedback@wowjutsu.com with exact Realm and Guild names and I'll add them manually.

#55 Buiden

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:15 PM

Amazing website Sir. I look forward to seeing the project mature and become even more accurate :)

#56 Guest_Agren_*

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:16 PM

If the system records guild roster history, then you'd only need to discount loot from people who only showed up recently. If someone has been in a guild for six months, and then shows a piece of gear from a boss in logical progression from what the guild has already killed, then there's no reason to discount that loot.

But another wrinkle is when a guild has someone running with an out-of-guild raid. We have a few OOG folks who run in our raids with us, and their guild either doesn't raid or is not as progressed, when the OOG folks get loot, it will be credited to their progression, not ours.

#57 snape

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:20 PM

It would also remove many legitimate boss kills though. For example, this week we had our first kills of Naj'entus-Akama and Anetheron-Kaz'rogal. Out of those kills we DE'd a piece of loot off of Naj'entus and Shade of Akama, leaving us at 1 piece of loot per boss. So requiring multiple pieces of loot from a boss would take half of our progress this week out of the ranking.

I'm wondering if there's any way, once all of the guilds are archived, to find new members and remove the gear they're currently wearing from the guild's loot pool. That would certainly solve the problems with transfers.


However, your kill of Supremus (with non-sharded loot) would have precluded your killing of Naj'entus, so I would assume that the system would recognize you had downed him despite having only 1 piece of his loot in your guild.

#58 cladnin

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:25 PM

However, your kill of Supremus (with non-sharded loot) would have precluded your killing of Naj'entus, so I would assume that the system would recognize you had downed him despite having only 1 piece of his loot in your guild.


Currently, no. Many guilds have Azgalor down but not Kazgoral -_-

#59 snape

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:32 PM

Currently, no. Many guilds have Azgalor down but not Kazgoral -_-


But I wasn't talking about Hyjal! Seeing as how BT is linear with no optionals (as far as I know).

#60 Shifft

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 07:34 PM

Hyjal is way more linear than BT (after the first 2 bosses).




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