Jump to content


Photo

How much modding is necessary?


  • Please log in to reply
51 replies to this topic

#21 Maliva

Maliva

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 23 July 2007 - 09:44 PM

I'd have to say that some MODs really are very helpful end-game. maybe not for everyone, but for those that are not as aware of the encounter it can greatly increase your raids success rate. DBM and those like it are great and make managing boss special abilities so much easier, necessary - no, helpfull - very.

As a healer I find the Blizzard UI very poor and clunky. Hell, even using MODS a healer UI is still going to be pretty messy in most cases, for me though, since I have to be able to view lots of information at once and like to have it as compact as possible I strongly suggest GRID. By compacting my Raid Unit Frams into grid and customizing it to show the info I want it frees up the rest of my screen so I can actually see whats going on.

Here is my current UI taken a few days ago, I'm running:
CT (Mail/Map/Viewport)
Perl Classic Unit Frames
GRID + GRIDSTATUS +HOTS
KTM
DBM
CTRaid
Bongos (best keybinding action bar mod I have found)
EnemyCastBar
CoolDown2

ps..before you check out the link, know that i have just about all my healing/damage spells keybound and hidden...not only am I not a "clicker" but I dont even keep my spells visable....good thing my guildmates trust me :-)


Posted Image

#22 Lambach

Lambach

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 258 posts

Posted 23 July 2007 - 09:58 PM

I'm getting to a point where I'm repeating myself here, but I'll say it again:

I do not like threat meters. I do, however, use them. I have Omen installed and running. I choose to run it hidden.

Anyone who feels they are able to play better by using a threat meter as a tool should continue to do so. People who don't like them should use them, in fact - their usefulness is limited by whether or not data is being collected by all raid members. With that said, not everyone will elect to base their playstyle around what the threat meter tells them, and they should not be penalized for that decision.


Im commenting on your disagreement for the need for threat meters at all in your first post. You are wrong about it, end game, they are very needed. And if you want to progress quicker(assuming from your statements that you are the raid leader) you should be enforcing them. And you yourself should have it up so you are aware of your own tps, and be ready for if/when people pull.

#23 dyree

dyree

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 23 July 2007 - 10:10 PM

I have a question: Several of you are mentioning raid assist addons (CTRA, ORA). What features do you regularly use from them?

Previously, they were a requirement in our guild due to the MT/MA windows, but we've been moving away from the since Blizzard has integrated many of the essental features into the default UI. Are there some other benefits that I've forgotten about that would push these mods back into the realm of "required"?

#24 Khaleel

Khaleel

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 23 July 2007 - 10:23 PM

I'm getting to a point where I'm repeating myself here, but I'll say it again:

I do not like threat meters. I do, however, use them. I have Omen installed and running. I choose to run it hidden.

Anyone who feels they are able to play better by using a threat meter as a tool should continue to do so. People who don't like them should use them, in fact - their usefulness is limited by whether or not data is being collected by all raid members. With that said, not everyone will elect to base their playstyle around what the threat meter tells them, and they should not be penalized for that decision.


Whether you personally like it or not isn't the point. People are penalized if they aren't using a threat meter by the inherent nature of Threat in this game. And as others have mentioned, it's not always just a minor penalty of a little less DPS. If your rogue is 2nd in threat behind the MT on Gruul, they just died and likely killed a few others off as well. If your mage pulls aggro, they just wiped the Raid.

#25 Miaxi

Miaxi

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 255 posts

Posted 23 July 2007 - 10:41 PM

Information that not provided by default UI:

oRa2 (MT frames and targets, player targets, raid-wide durability checks, raid-wide reagent checks, rebirth/soulstone cooldowns, invite keyword, guild-invite, auto-promote, auto-loot-treshold, ressurection monitor)
BigWigs (boss timers and warnings)
KTM/Omen (threat information)


Information that is provided but in a badly readable and annoying way:

Grid / PerfectRaid
Gridstatus Missing Buffs
Quartz
A class-specific timer addon for your totems/DOTs/HOTs/whatever durations.


Stuff that is not really necessary but is nice to have:

Prat (because the default chat is awful)
ArkInventory (sorting my inventory is so 2005)
Postman (the default mailbox is awful, too)
Closetgnome/Outfitter/Itemrack (now where was that second healing ring again...?)
Pitbull/Nurfed/Xpearl/whatever unit frames (is it me or are the default ones _really_ tiny?)
Bartender3/Nurfed/whatever action bars (better range and cooldown display)
pDebufflist/Debufffilter (if you want to know if that curse of shadows is really on that boss)
Parrot/SCT/MSBT (the default SCT is pretty spammy when it involves shadow priests)

Everything else is extra. :)

#26 Marroc

Marroc

    Now you're thinking with portals!

  • Members
  • 659 posts

Posted 23 July 2007 - 10:50 PM

We've transitioned fully to Omen, and it's been a good switch.

Personally, I disagree with the need for threat meters altogether, but it doesn't phase me - I run Omen hidden in the background, and everyone else can do what they so please with the data.


You don't even need to run omen... Just ThreatLib will do :P

#27 Daenerys

Daenerys

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 406 posts

Posted 24 July 2007 - 05:01 PM

I have a question: Several of you are mentioning raid assist addons (CTRA, ORA). What features do you regularly use from them?

Previously, they were a requirement in our guild due to the MT/MA windows, but we've been moving away from the since Blizzard has integrated many of the essental features into the default UI. Are there some other benefits that I've forgotten about that would push these mods back into the realm of "required"?


We have historically required CTRA for a few reasons. First and foremost, it was the best way to get information on important cooldowns such as a Druid's combat rez. We ask that our raiders do not use these long-cooldown timers unless called for by a raid leader, and it's helpful to know which Druids have their timers ready.

Furthermore, back in pre-TBC, when resist fights were king, the ability to check everyone's resists with a simple command (/raresist) was an excellent tool to make sure everyone was prepared. I also like /ravote for random things, and of course being able to spy on people's inventory is fun (and useful when someone asks if anyone has vials on them, as some people just don't pay attention).

The biggest boon these mods provide for me are the invite features. There is nothing I hate more than getting spamming with invites for 30 minutes before each raid, and so these mods make the spam automatically invite. And of course auto-promote the other officers to raid assists.

#28 Fragged

Fragged

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 38 posts

Posted 24 July 2007 - 08:56 PM

I do not like threat meters. I do, however, use them. I have Omen installed and running. I choose to run it hidden.

Anyone who feels they are able to play better by using a threat meter as a tool should continue to do so. People who don't like them should use them, in fact - their usefulness is limited by whether or not data is being collected by all raid members. With that said, not everyone will elect to base their playstyle around what the threat meter tells them, and they should not be penalized for that decision.


I believe this reflects a slight misunderstanding in the value/use of a threat meter.

The only people who impact the effectiveness of your raid's ability to use a threat meter effectively are your tanks (note this can include non-traditional tanks such as a warlock as Leo.) For example in almost any situation your healers can get away without running a threat meter, it's simply not relevant to their role.

However, speaking as a long time main-tank (both at 60 and at 70) I can say that I've seen my threat 30 seconds into a fight vary dramatically some of the time. Quite simply, in a short period of time your threat can vary dramatically when tanking due to misses/dodges/parries and even crits. It's simply not practically possible for your DPS to have a truely accurate feel for the tank's threat, it's simply impossible for them to watch the combat log spam closely enough to actually do this while doing everything else they'd need to do in a fight.

Enrage timers are a pretty common part of end-game encounters now, and they can heavily penalize you for not walking as close to the threat line as possible (particularly since many of the fights with enrage timers also have mechanics that can kill people off over time, so holding off early to burn harder later is a strictly inferior strategy.)

As a tank, the threat meter is basically 100% worthless information for your role, you should be running your optimal threat rotation no matter what, but that's not the point of a threat meter. The job of a threat meter is to let your DPS burn as hard as is possible without exceeding the threat of the tank.

I think what everyone here is trying to tell you is this: You seem to think that walking the agro line is a optional issue for the DPS in your guild, and that's a dangerous attitude to project to your guild. People rise to the expectations you set, if you expect your raiders to play suboptimally, they'll play suboptimally. If you expect them to squeeze as much out of what they can (and have discussions, post WWS parses with comments about them, etc.) then people will take bringing their A-game seriously. Threat meters are a key part of effective DPS.

#29 Edghar

Edghar

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 81 posts

Posted 24 July 2007 - 09:01 PM

We have a required mod package that contains Group Calendar, KTM (soon Omen), and RDX.

#30 Dakous

Dakous

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 482 posts

Posted 25 July 2007 - 03:50 AM

I disagree that a raid interace like CTRA/oRA is necessary if you are not a healer/puller.


CTRA and oRA are not completely synonymous in that CTRA brings (or did, last I used it) frames, and oRA does not. However, both bring a host of other features (including resist check, mentioned above) that are worth having.

In a perfect world, every raider is on the ball, responds to every question quickly, knows all their stats, tracks their durability, responds immediately to boss cues, and does my laundry for me. We had stated certain mods (Omen, oRA, BigWigs) were not required if one never made a mistake that could be prevented by using them. As someone with some psychology background, I should have known better - people are a terrible judge of themselves. And many don't evaluate "Hey, I died on boss ability, maybe I should get boss ability tracker mod BigWigs." Ever. Since we don't live in a perfect world, those are all required mods for us.

Now, when we go between raid zones, I can perform the /ora durability check query, and name five people who need to repair on the way and get summoned when we're at the stone. I can call on vent, "Hey, Shadowpriest X, go stand in a corner and do nothing, you're dangerously close to pulling aggro." When Magtheridon decides he'd like some raid-b-q, I can call out, Hey, you think Blast Wave Casting is a pretty cool time to click the cube? I mean, just maybe?

We may be the biggest noobs on the planet, but I'd rather have those three mods, be succeeding and having fun, then not.

Edit: And to flesh out the OP's last question, "Forcing" people to use mods:

Our original statement was, "If you can get by without screwing up without the mods, go nuts. But I will rain down brimstone and fire on you when you fail." Now, I mention DKP deductions. Has anyone actually had one? No. If anyone was both intractable about the mod and screwing up, they'd get it, though. They do get harsh (by my, not most people's, standards) words, though.
Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.

#31 Randor

Randor

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 25 July 2007 - 05:09 AM

Well, you don't need TeamSpeak or Vent either for a raid but few people are going to disagree on how helpful they are.

But like the various mods mentioned throughout this thread, voice communication makes a raid go smoother.

i would think it's also a psychological benchmark: Who's ready to raid? Who is committed to doing their best and reducing whatever mistakes? If someone can't be bothered to install something like Omen, for example, how serious are they about raiding?

And while you always get a clunker or two now and then, most mods that are used heavily tend to be stable and don't impact a computer's memory that much.

And the same argument could be made for pots and consumables, among other things. You don't need to have health and mana pots. You don't need bandages or flasks but they certainly can make things go easier.

But for the OP, I would say he should know his guild and what their strengths and limitations are; as well as a plan for the guild's direction.
This is a computer-generated message and needs no signature.

#32 IKT

IKT

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 25 July 2007 - 06:10 AM

Our raid leaders require us to have:
-Threat meter (In the process of migrating to Omen from KTM)
-A boss mod (Deadly Boss Mods, Big Wigs, etc. I run both, personall)
-CTRA or oRA


That's our minimum as well.

Might try Big Wigs as DBM on gruul is missing the ground slams by up to 10 seconds.

#33 nuno

nuno

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 25 July 2007 - 08:12 AM

I think a cooldown count is still needed. A Threat Meter for DPS, and a DOT Tracker for Warlocks. The default UI handles most everything else that's needed, but that doesn't make other addons redundant, especially considering how little you can modify the behavior of the UI elements.

#34 Zak

Zak

    Nuke it from orbit.

  • Members
  • 187 posts

Posted 25 July 2007 - 08:31 AM

What's the best readycheck to replace the default UI one? We used to run CTRA ages ago, and I miss how it would change your raid frames as each member clicked yes/no. Obviously this only worked because it was the same mod in charge of the raid frames, but is there anything that gives better feedback than the Bliz one?

#35 Guest_Amarek_*

Guest_Amarek_*
  • Guests

Posted 25 July 2007 - 08:52 AM

I want to chime in on the threatmeter discussion. :)

We never forced people to use any kind of threatmeter. There were always a few - 4 at most - who used them anyway (one of them was our MT). When Omen was published a lot of people tried it out and all of a sudden our warlock's damage decreased (all of them used Omen) by a rather substantial margin. They always were on top of the damage list and all of a sudden they moved to middle of the field. Their DPS was still good (according to WWS), but their overall damage suffered.

After we had a few talks, they deleted Omen and their DPS went up again. We rarely have a problem with our MT losing aggro, so there is no need to rely on a meter, that is by design unreliable.

We have no mandatory addons, but most people use Ora with some kind of unitframes (Grid/X-Perl/Sraidframes) in addition to BigWigs/DBM.

#36 Stalwart

Stalwart

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 25 July 2007 - 09:26 AM

On our Raids we use Omen(Or KTM), DBM, oRA 2, and TeamSpeak (not a wow mod, but hey). Some people like to run additonal tools like SWStats or Recount, good for them but not needed for everyone of course. An incredible helpfull tool is NatureEnemyCastBar, nowadays it even supplies Trash Repop Timers on top of its already amazing amount of stuff it shows.

I'd say in a "normal" raid nowadays it comes down to Bossmod / RaidOrganizetool (oRA, CTraid) / Threatmeters / And a quick way to check the raid Status (be it Grid, or XRS, or dragging out the whole raid with those silly build in raid UI).

We didnt use Threatmeters before TBC, as most people in our guild considered it "cheating", but nowadays the encounters feel more like that they are designed around the usage of certain mods, otherwise they'd be a pain in the ass. (I remember our first Hakkar kill we did with a lousy Stopwatch and calling on TS for Son pulls / lifedrain because no one used Bossmods, i'd hate to do that on Magtheridon).

When Omen was published a lot of people tried it out and all of a sudden our warlock's damage decreased (all of them used Omen) by a rather substantial margin. They always were on top of the damage list and all of a sudden they moved to middle of the field. Their DPS was still good (according to WWS), but their overall damage suffered.

After we had a few talks, they deleted Omen and their DPS went up again. We rarely have a problem with our MT losing aggro, so there is no need to rely on a meter, that is by design unreliable.


That sounds odd, usually the DPS goes way up after installing Threatmeters. Do your Warlocks know that they will not pull aggro at 101% of the MT aggro, but at 130% as ranged DPS? (Silly question, they probably do, but you never know.) Another thing might also be that the rest of your DPS also installed Threatmeters and does more DPS then the Warlocks now?

#37 Chicken

Chicken

     

  • Moderators
  • 3,639 posts

Posted 25 July 2007 - 11:18 AM

When Magtheridon decides he'd like some raid-b-q, I can call out, Hey, you think Blast Wave Casting is a pretty cool time to click the cube? I mean, just maybe?

Boss mods can sometimes be a bit of a double edged-sword for these kind of things though. You don't want to know how many people new to clicking the cubes I've seen that make the mistake of clicking when their timer says Blast Wave is ready, as opposed to clicking when it starts casting.

It still beats having no boss mods at all, but it's always a good thing to remember that taking them too literally can be harmful to your raid as well.

#38 Issues

Issues

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 25 July 2007 - 11:41 AM

Necessary is a strong word, there is enough info in the blizzard default ui to raid with, albeit making your job significantly harder.

The majority of mods i run are purely cosmetic as i'm somewhat obsessed with being able to see whats going on in the fight - even though i'm a healer - and i use cooldownpulse so i dont miss when cooldowns come back up, power auras so i dont miss clearcasts and can dance around the 5sec rule more efficiently.

While i dont lead raids anymore, if I was still in that position i'd only enforce 3 mods - A threatmeter, ora2 and bigwigs/vendetta. Threatmeter is obvious, there are so many aggro sensetive fights in the game now, ora is invaluable to check people havent forgotten to switch to resist gear/brought the right pots and such, and the bossmods are again obvious for lots of encounters - imagine melee without a timer on leotheras, it wouldnt be pretty.

As said above i've found that people often get confused by the bossmods just due to the nature of boss abilities since bc release. In an effort to make things less scripted the abilities arent on a fixed timer per se, they have a cooldown and then happen randomly when the cooldown is over - once you get this point across people have much less problems understanding whats going on.

#39 Marieth

Marieth

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 133 posts

Posted 25 July 2007 - 12:11 PM

Our raid also requieres ora2/ctraid, omen and a boss mod timer (which one does not matter).

We didn't use KTM preBC or even for our first gruul kills. But when we decided to give it a shot, we expierenced quit an increase in our raid dps.

I remember back during our gruul first kill, I was feintin' like mad, because I had to stay below the OT and I knew that they can sometimes have problems with aggro due to rage starvation.

After we made KTM mandatory I saw, that feint wasn't neccessary. I could go all out, always skidding at the 90% mark to the OT, then vanish at arround 50% and go on with damage and never worry about aggro.

Nowadays it really helps to see, if the MT had a good aggro start. When I see, that I'm pretty close just doing my standart cycle, I'll ask him if he got a miss or parry series.

So for me threatmeters are not only about aggro, they are also a good way to improve your personal dps. I know it helped me.

According to Bossmods, I'm the rogue class leader and my motto is: If you can do your job without them and not relying on informations our RL or me is giving you, than I don't care. But if you make mistakes, a bossmod would have prevented, you are sitting out.
"...gone missing."

#40 Dakous

Dakous

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 482 posts

Posted 25 July 2007 - 12:25 PM

Boss mods can sometimes be a bit of a double edged-sword for these kind of things though. You don't want to know how many people new to clicking the cubes I've seen that make the mistake of clicking when their timer says Blast Wave is ready, as opposed to clicking when it starts casting.


Which I think is a function of raid briefing rather then mod. Knowing when something can/will happen versus what to do when that can/will happen is the difference, really. Everyone having stopwatches and clicking them appropriately (the watches) is just the same, albeit with vastly higher opportunity costs.

We rarely have mistakes, and while I think the briefing is down to five/six sentences, one of them is, "And if you click the cube early, you stand there and die[pause] like a champ, channeling it all day." Yeah, we have wipes to the "Oops, that's CD up, not casting..." but c'est la vie. Generally, it's the first/only wipe of the night - what's the thing about Pareto's law? 90% and 10%? The 1% effort to say it's not a big deal seems to vastly outweigh the 90% effort to get that last 10% of cases nailed down, even with the 10% tack on.
Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users