Jump to content


Photo

Feral Megathread


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
5072 replies to this topic

#21 Junakit

Junakit

    Carebear

  • Members
  • 32 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 03:05 AM

Excellent post dukes, just what we need.

Just a minor wording issue on the bear stuff. You say we need 156 defense to be uncrittable when you mean defense rating, usually (in my experience) the word "defense" alone refers to the skill. It'd be nice to see the magic 415 in there somewhere.

Seems like nitpicking but this (and "should I gem agi or str or AP?") is probably the question I'm most asked, by other druids and non-druids alike.

#22 f1reburn

f1reburn

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 126 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 05:31 AM

Thank you for writing this thread dukes, I had started reading the first 30ish pages of the Feral Druid Dps and the Bear Form Itemization thread and this is a much clearer summation of the things important to Feral Druids.

In the 'talents to add' section you don't mention Intensity, now I am still leveling my Druid, but I was going to take Intensity for the reasons described here.
Similar to the Cat form dps cycle, could you add a Bear form threat cycle? From what I understand from my guildies, it's:

-In a low rage situation: Mangle, 3x Lacerate, repeat
-In a high rage situation: Queue a Maul whenever possible, then interrupt this Maul with Mangle or Lacerate depending on cooldown, then requeue Maul.

#23 iLyanse

iLyanse

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 05:40 AM

Your cycle screams all species of odd to me. You don't need to complicate things that much and your comments about 2t4 procs near the Rip meaning you don't need to powershift just eventuates in the standard "(mangle on first contact only) shred to 4/5, wait for energy, rip, mangle, repeat" cycle. Timing powershifts needs to be completely dynamic dependant on how many OoC procs, 2t4 procs and special crits you're getting. Crits at 4cp don't waste energy, they waste cp, which is perfectly acceptable if you're still mid-cycle and in danger of energy spillover.

edit: The main benefit I can see of waiting for ~80 energy before Rip/Mangle is to make sure you have enough time to Shred up enough cp to minimize Rip downtime as much as possible IF none of your specials are critting and OoC/2t4 aren't proccing.

After the powershift/Mangle you're now sitting at 0 energy at worst, or a partial tick amount of energy at best (due to the changes in energy tick mechanics). Whereas a Rip/Mangle at ~80 energy means you'll have ~30 energy leftover (80 - 30(Rip) - 40(Mangle) + 20(tick)) from the inevitable tick that would have happened in that time.

Now, if that Mangle doesn't crit, and neither do your next 3 Shreds, you need to wait 14 seconds before you can build up 4 cp in the former case (i.e. lost Rip uptime) and only 10 seconds in the latter (no loss in Rip uptime).

Another problem with powershifting after Rip is that you need to make sure you are as close to 30 energy as possible before Ripping or you'll waste energy powershifting. Not to mention that it's unwieldy to time perfectly due to client/server travel time until 2.3 /cancelform changes are in place.


The reality of the DPS rotation is that complex when you take all factors into account. You "loose energy" from lost CP because it's not being included in building to the next round of finisher and the only time you should ever shred at 4 CP is when you're about to bleed energy. Alternatively you can quite easily call it loosing CP but I prefer to think of it as lost energy, that's just me.

You only ever hold your energy in the rotation if you have 4 CP, you are not about to bleed energy and Rip is still on your target other wise a few things happen:

Rip is not ticking on the target, you are loosing DPS and you're not building combo points to your next Rip. You use this method to make sure that Rip sticks to the target 24x7 and that your mangle debuff follows your Rip at all times or as above you're loosing DPS to not having Rip up and you're lossing DPS to not having mangle increase your Rip damage.

It's worth pointing out you don't execute a furor if you have 50 or more energy when you rip as you will gain the 20 energy on your next tick, execute mangle when it would be executed any way from furor, then furor for energy.

The options at 31 - 49 energy with 4 CP are:

1) To either wait two energy ticks to be able to mangle with your rip and loose 4 seconds of Rip on the target - Worst.

2) Execute Rip now and wait for the energy to fill - Bad.

3) Execute Rip, Furor and mangle immediately as Rip takes 2 seconds for it's first tick- Best. You can still catch up your energy with another furor if you need to in that cycle if you don't crit, 2 piece T4 or OoC proc.

"Cached" energy is a great thing and it's nice when you crit a lot and have OoC proc as you can just Rip then mangle, furor and shred and keep going but it doesn't always happen like that and your mana bar / pots / demonic runes etc with furor are what you use when you're not stacked up with it.

#24 mirarant

mirarant

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 09:40 AM

My apologies if these things have already been covered but the rating conversion page suggests the following:

Haste Rating: 10.5 rating grants 1% haste

Spell Haste Rating: 21 rating grants 1% spell haste

I thought that they were both changed to grant 1% haste from 15.7 rating or so, if this is indeed the case perhaps a notification should be written next to the link explaining this.


Secondly the Lower City head enchant's exact values are 17 strength / 16 intellect.


No, you may not roll a spiked chain wielding half-ogre.

#25 Farstrider

Farstrider

    Soda Popinski

  • Members
  • 4,499 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 10:01 AM

Thanks very much for doing this Dukes, I'd positive rep you if I was allowed to do that now. Not much to add really - the agility/str equivalency graph would be a fantastic addition as someone already mentioned.

Is it worth putting a note of how much benefit SotF gives you and how much def/resil you would need to overcome the loss of 1 point in the talent - it's not something I'd ever consider doing, but I have heard of people considering it, & I guess it would be useful if you ever had to OT something while only having 21 points in feral or something.
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
<Zyla> If there's gonna be a dick in the room besides my own, i'd rather it have to be my brother's. You know that kinda sounds bad all typed out like that,

#26 anathor

anathor

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 128 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 10:55 AM

Fantastic post. Great summary, and very useful. A few suggestions below.

I think it would be valuable to indicate which pieces of t4 are the most valuable to keep for the 2pc t4 bonus, since it is one of the most common questions people will have. Apparently it's helm and shoulders preferrably, then I'm not sure.

Re: Raven Goddess I know it's obvious but maybe add something about the fact that you have to be in a full melee group for it to be valuable. Since we don't get WF procs, I often see that the melee group in a 25-man raid is 2x dps warriors + 2x rogues + enh shaman. And the druids are in another group with a couple other melee characters, maybe tanks. In which case the benefit of the Raven Goddess goes way down. And maybe add something about idols for bears, with Raven Goddess being situational, and Brutality and Wild being quite good with a preference for brutality especially in infinite rage fights. In particular remind everybody that Ursoc is crap.

Re: trinkets, I thought the Darkmoon: Crusade was also quite comparable to some of the trinkets you quote (i.e. somewhere around 115-120 AEP). Maybe also add something about the 2 main variants of trinkets: user-triggered, and RNG-triggered - and how druids seem to have split opinions on this issue, with RNG-triggered trinkets often looking better on paper, but some druids preferring to have the control of when the on use effect is triggered as to not lose any on use uptime. Also in the summary maybe just say to check the list above, because some high-ish trinkets are not that good, e.g. Living Root.

In the summary, for feral weapon skill I would emphasise the sweet spot at > 19.5 rating (where you get exactly +5 weapon skill) which gives the best value for money (3% hit and some -dodge).

Maybe rephrasing the WF part in the summary to make it clearer, I would start with "WF doesn't proc in cat form, but wouldn't be overpowered..."

Finally maybe a bit of a newbish reminder, but re: enchants it might be worth reminding people that weapon "on hit" enchants don't work in forms, and that armor enchants/kits are not multiplied by bear form.

#27 Duilliath

Duilliath

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 892 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 12:02 PM

Similar to the Cat form dps cycle, could you add a Bear form threat cycle? From what I understand from my guildies, it's:

-In a low rage situation: Mangle, 3x Lacerate, repeat
-In a high rage situation: Queue a Maul whenever possible, then interrupt this Maul with Mangle or Lacerate depending on cooldown, then requeue Maul.


Mauls are "On Next Hit". Mangle and Lacerate are instant and don't ever come in the way of Maul (or vice versa).

Highest single target threat cycle is

Mangle, Lacerate (x3). Use excess rage to queue Mauls every single time.

Feral Faerie Fire might seem nice, but costs you a global cooldown. Similarly, Demo Roar seems nice but costs you a global cooldown and a Warrior's Shout will override it (Druid: -240 AP untalented, -336 talented; Warrior: -300 AP untalented, -450 talented). You might need these two in normal 5man runs, but it's unlikely you'll be using them on a raid Boss fight.

#28 Wings

Wings

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 12:04 PM

A question about trinkets. You do not list . I always believed this to be one of the better Cat Form DPS trinkets available. Am I mistaken, or did you overlook this particular item?

#29 Malazaar

Malazaar

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 336 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 12:08 PM

Ok, now as promised more sets of AEP values (ignore the previous posted one, it was very badly rounded):

(Note that all these sets factor in raid buffs, those with t6 and beyond use black temple gems)

Karazhan equip - AP: 4460, Crit: 45.38% (1290 DPS)
1 AEP = 0.2005 DPS
Str: 2.7192 AEP (2.2660 AEP)
Agi: 3.1679 AEP (2.8799 AEP)
Hitr: 2.1093 AEP (1.9176 AEP)
Critr: 2.0320 AEP (1.8473 AEP)
Haste: 1.7742 AEP (1.6129 AEP)
ArmorIgnore: 0.4075 AEP (0.3705 AEP)
WPD: 11.1401 AEP (10.1273 AEP)

T4 Equip (4T4) - AP: 4611, Crit: 44.12% (1359 DPS)
1 AEP = 0.2046 DPS
Str: 2.7192 AEP (2.2660 AEP)
Agi: 3.2519 AEP (2.9563 AEP)
Hitr: 2.1601 AEP (1.9638 AEP)
Critr: 2.1159 AEP (1.9236 AEP)
Haste: 1.8941 AEP (1.7219 AEP)
ArmorIgnore: 0.4180 AEP (0.3800 AEP)
WPD: 11.0700 AEP (10.0636 AEP)

T5 Equip (2T4) - AP: 4708, Crit: 48.01% (1408 DPS)
1 AEP = 0.2121 DPS
Str: 2.7192 AEP (2.2660 AEP)
Agi: 3.1715 AEP (2.8832 AEP)
Hitr: 2.1211 AEP (1.9283 AEP)
Critr: 2.0357 AEP (1.8506 AEP)
Haste: 1.9049 AEP (1.7317 AEP)
ArmorIgnore: 0.4179 AEP (0.3799 AEP)
WPD: 11.0896 AEP (10.0814 AEP)

T6 Equip (4T6) - AP: 4985, Crit: 50.69% (1481 DPS)
1 AEP = 0.2145 DPS
Str: 2.7192 AEP (2.2660 AEP)
Agi: 3.2293 AEP (2.9357 AEP)
Hitr: 2.2175 AEP (2.0159 AEP)
Critr: 2.0934 AEP (1.9031 AEP)
Haste: 1.8695 AEP (1.6996 AEP)
ArmorIgnore: 0.4267 AEP (0.3879 AEP)
WPD: 10.9346 AEP (9.9405 AEP)

Endgame Gear (2T6, 2T4) - AP: 4981, Crit: 52.09% (1558 DPS)
1 AEP = 0.2270 DPS
Str: 2.7192 AEP (2.2660 AEP)
Agi: 3.2035 AEP (2.9122 AEP)
Hitr: 2.1876 AEP (1.9888 AEP)
Critr: 2.0676 AEP (1.8796 AEP)
Haste: 1.9329 AEP (1.7572 AEP)
ArmorIgnore: 0.4386 AEP (0.3987 AEP)
WPD: 11.1223 AEP (10.1111 AEP)

Edit: Corrected Str Values for 2.3 (in brackets).

#30 dukes

dukes

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,034 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 12:28 PM

I've been updating stuff in between doing work. Most of the points brought up should be sorted now. I won't list all the changes here (check the changelog in the last post for details).

#31 Malan

Malan

    Mike Tyson

  • Allied Members
  • 29,830 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 01:11 PM

Dukes - from running the Enhance Shaman thread, my advice to you is that you should include all relevant mathematical formula anywhere that you say "this is the best choice" or "the value of this is X," because sooner or later you're going to be flooded with people saying you're wrong, or asking for the formulas.

#32 Malazaar

Malazaar

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 336 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 01:30 PM

For some facts there are simple formulas, for some there are very complicated ones. But for many of the facts or opinion in this thread there are no formulas as they were obtained by numerical or empirical means.

#33 Allev

Allev

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 545 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 01:59 PM

Demo Roar seems nice but costs you a global cooldown and a Warrior's Shout will override it (Druid: -240 AP untalented, -336 talented; Warrior: -300 AP untalented, -450 talented).


I want to see your citing of the evidence here. I have 3/5 improved demo roar, and it overwrites a warrior's shout (and a warrior can't overwrite mine). But if your values are correct, 3/5 of the talent would be .6 * 96 + 240 = 297.6, still less than a warrior's standard shout.

#34 dukes

dukes

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,034 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 02:04 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a trigger that says that if you have improved, it will always overwrite, while if you don't then it won't, regardless of what the actual values for the shouts are. Kind of stupid, but I wouldn't put it past them.

#35 TrevvyTrev

TrevvyTrev

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 457 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 03:33 PM

Obviously if you're in a group with 2 hunters, a shadowpriest and a resto shaman, it's value decreases massively and you'd be better off using everbloom.


Idol of the Raven Goddess may decrease in value, but things become complicated when you consider the fact that hunters have various abilities that trigger from crits, on top of the straight dps gains from them. BM hunter pets trigger a 3% damage buff for the whole party (and a 30% haste buff for themselves) when they crit, and LotP is one of the few ways that a hunter can boost pet crit rates. Survival hunters trigger expose weakness (which boosts physical dps for the entire raid) from crits, and regain mana when their special attacks crit.

Again, this is not to say I disagree with the conclusion, as my math fu is far too weak to evaluate it. But crit nevertheless can have damage boosting effects that one might not anticipate at first.

#36 Hobbes

Hobbes

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 03:47 PM

The +5str/+4agi gem is Shifting Tanzanite (red/blue), and it drops from the bosses in Heroic SV.

#37 Weidekuh

Weidekuh

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 03:55 PM

We defenately need a new top item list for each slot with the HotW change now. :D

#38 dukes

dukes

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2,034 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 03:56 PM

The +5str/+4agi gem is Shifting Tanzanite (red/blue), and it drops from the bosses in Heroic SV.


Yeah I was being lazy before, just gone through and replaced all the gems with actual itemlinks.

#39 Malazaar

Malazaar

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 336 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 04:22 PM

We defenately need a new top item list for each slot with the HotW change now. :D


Pretty much the only thing that changed is that Thallassian Wildercloak is slightly better than Razor-Scale Battlecloak. I made a 2.3 Toplist in the Feral Druid DPS Thread.

#40 Fringe_Worthy

Fringe_Worthy

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 10 October 2007 - 04:58 PM

In terms of Bear tanking, does it matter if the mob is bleed immune or not when it comes to spending your rage? (Assuming sufficient rage, maul queued up, Mangle on cooldown) Or is it still Lacerate > Swipe until swipe > 225 damage? (And since lacerate is mostly static, it doesn't matter if the count is 0/5 or 5/5?) Or more simply: How do I rage dump?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users