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Feral Megathread


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#41 Duilliath

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 05:36 PM

I want to see your citing of the evidence here. I have 3/5 improved demo roar, and it overwrites a warrior's shout (and a warrior can't overwrite mine). But if your values are correct, 3/5 of the talent would be .6 * 96 + 240 = 297.6, still less than a warrior's standard shout.


Got the values from Thottbot - just checked in game and Demo Roar rank 6 is listed as 248 AP, not 240. That'd make enough of a difference to get over the 300 mark. Asked a Warrior friend, their shout is listed as 300 indeed (unimproved).

Your 3/5 value would put you at 124% of 248 = 307.5

In terms of Bear tanking, does it matter if the mob is bleed immune or not when it comes to spending your rage? (Assuming sufficient rage, maul queued up, Mangle on cooldown) Or is it still Lacerate > Swipe until swipe > 225 damage? (And since lacerate is mostly static, it doesn't matter if the count is 0/5 or 5/5?) Or more simply: How do I rage dump?


It makes no difference since the hotfix.

The initial damage done by Lacerate affects Bleed Immunes (and can even crit). The dot part of Lacerate can largely be ignored when it comes to threat generation.

#42 Tublade

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 06:02 PM

Dukes, a million thanks, great work!!

#43 Allev

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 06:09 PM

Pretty much the only thing that changed is that Thallassian Wildercloak is slightly better than Razor-Scale Battlecloak. I made a 2.3 Toplist in the Feral Druid DPS Thread.


That's all that changed at the "top" level where you can socket everything for DPS. There are a lot of in-between DPS items between T5 and T6, and compromises made with T6, that show how items may have value where they previously didn't.

In the short-term, note that increased their lead on everything besides T6. becomes obscenely better than any other option, as opposed to significantly better. A great many blues start infringing upon the territory of epics (making, say, not much better than .) and get to be as good as for DPS (but still behind Shadowmaster's). went from top-tier DPS item to second-tier, as well as things like and . The new now has competition from .

The top isn't different, but the steps getting there definitely are. Essentially-- anything with AGI, AP, and sockets all got better than they were before. Items with all 3 got significantly buffed relative to "feral" items with STR/AGI.

#44 Larisroth

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 09:17 PM

With my numbers until you can get T6 level gear, (oddly enough) it goes roughly like chest, hat, shoulders, gloves, pants. In 2.3, the engineering hat becomes more viable, and so you can swap it with the shoulders. It's a bit of a muchness. The T4 pants are certainly the weakest of the pieces for dps.

There still issues with a lot of random epics, because they don't have agility on them, so while Bloodsea for example might be better than t4, it's only marginally so, and mainly due to item level and the wasted stats on the t4.

ETA:
There's no section for bear trinkets. Just that comment in the living root entry. is probably a better trinket to use if you're switching because it's activateable.

As I understand it, lacerate crits will only increase the base damage component of it rather than the bonus threat, and more importantly, that initial application can be blocked, which because it's doing low damage can result in the whole hit being blocked and no threat applied.

You can't completely ignore the DoT component. Fully stacked, even at a 20% threat modifier they do in total about the same threat as the initial application. That's why you maintain it on mobs that are vulnerable to bleed effects.
The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

#45 The Grog

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 01:54 AM

I thought lacerate bleed threat was 10%, not 20%. Testing when it was changed tot he current version showed sunder armor level inital threat. Has that changed?

Clarifying a few points.

The reason + hit is good for druids is twofold. First, nifty things like the Hourglass, 2T4, and Omen only work when you hit. Missing dilutes their effectiveness. Second, ferals will average energy-to-damage conversion rates around 30-50, from karazhan to T6. This means that every missed shred or mangle is costing you around 270-450 lost damage and a missed rip is very painful. This energy conversion rate is much higher than rogues, and is the reason 2T4 is so good. Every proc is another 600-1000 damage.

The Shapeshifter's Signet gives you an effective 3% hit against boss and other 73 mobs, plus possibly other unknown bonuses. This makes it extremely efficient, and it it still useful even if you dps with a Earthwarden. On the other hand, 10% ap makes rogue gear competitive for many slots and it usually has an abundance of hit.

Next is an examination of the differences between the various tier pieces and which are the best to use at any particular point. The easy answer is to wear whichever T4 pieces you can't fill in with T5 or better.

The medium answer is always wear things with more sockets, like T6 gloves and T5&6 legs.

The long answer goes into a semi-detailed examination of the various pieces' stats as compared among the tiers. Here is the total stat changes for each piece in total stats as you advance along the tier sets. Socketing is so that each set, T4, 5 and 6, will activate a RED meta and yellows are always filled with pure hit gems. Mix and matching pieces will shuffle gems around a bit but shouldn't create major differences. Chests are always socketed for bonuses since they eat a yellow and a blue, T4 and T6 helm socket bonuses are included and T5 shoulders.

Helms:
T5 +5 str, +4 agi, -8 hit
T6 +16 str, +6 agi, -8 hit

Shoulders:
T5 +5 str, -1 agi, +8 hit
T6 +6 str, +5 agi, +8 hit

Chest:
T5 +17 str, -4 agi, -4 hit
T6 +24 str, +2 agi, -4 hit

Legs:
T5 +4 str, +13 agi, +18 hit
T6 +11 str, +17 agi, +27 hit

Gloves:
T5 +3 str, +3 agi
T6 +7 str, +16 agi

The hit diffences in the helms and shoulder are due to gem placements. T4 helm gets a hit gem, while they go in shoulders for the other tier sets. While individual placement may vary, while wearing T5 the best T4 pieces are clearly the gloves and the shoulders, although using the shoulders requires shifting a hit gem. While wearing T6 things get a little more complicated. Wearing shoulders and helm only costs you 22 str and just 11 agi while socketing your second yellow for the lovely T4 helm bonus. Shoulders and chest costs you 30 str yet only 7 agi while gaining 4 hit, but requires moving a yellow gem somewhere.

Incidentally, this also shows that T5&6 legs and T6 gloves are extremely good and are the best pieces in their respective sets.

#46 JulianMaiev

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 03:10 AM

Re: defense skill:

How much straight +defense does it take to become undazeable? This is an area where using +def to reach uncrittable seems to have an edge over using +resilience to do the same thing.

#47 Thessaly

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 04:46 AM

As I understand it, lacerate crits will only increase the base damage component of it rather than the bonus threat, and more importantly, that initial application can be blocked, which because it's doing low damage can result in the whole hit being blocked and no threat applied.


Lacerate applications that are wholly blocked still refresh/increase the stack. I haven't been able to systematically test whether the threat is still applied, nor seen any tests to that effect. If the block is mitigation in the same sense as dodge or parry, then it would make sense that the bonus initial threat isn't applied, but by the same reasoning, it doesn't make sense that the stack is refreshed.

#48 Larisroth

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 05:07 AM

Re: Lacerate

I was just going by the wowwiki description, but looking at the code for the latest version of the ace threat lib, it also has the values of 285 base threat, and then a 20% modifier on all damage. Lacerate doesn't scale with AP, so the maximum average threat you're likely to get when attacking is about 300 threat. Swipe on the other hand does scale with AP, with 7% of AP being added to your base damage. If you have good enough AP, crit and to get your average swipe damage up to more than 300 damage then it will generate more threat per attack than lacerate.

The issue is also complicated by blocks and weapon skill. Pretty much every TBC boss has a chance of blocking and will block for more than lacerate hits for and in those cases it generates no threat. Having weapon skill helps, but even at the infamous +5 level it doesn't negate block completely.

The lacerate threat issue was discussed in the bear tanking thread. Dukes came to the conclusion you need to do about 225 average damage (non crit) to generate more threat.
The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

#49 Boevis

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 05:51 AM

Kir, one thing you seem to have forgotten is non-set items.

,

Not to mention going with strait +Hit is pretty bad compared to +agi/+hit even when not hit capped, you don't actually need yellow sockets to activate the RED, just gems that "count" as yellow.

#50 Dalamar

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 07:02 AM

Re: defense skill:

How much straight +defense does it take to become undazeable? This is an area where using +def to reach uncrittable seems to have an edge over using +resilience to do the same thing.


Daze immunity is 475 for 70s + 5 for each level up. 490 for bosses. SotF does nothing for druid daze immunity.

This is realistically unattainable for druids while tanking and you will probably see a daze or two while tanking mobs that need to move fast, yes being dazed has killed my and wiped our Illidan attempts more than once.

#51 Dalamar

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 07:13 AM

Re: Lacerate

I was just going by the wowwiki description, but looking at the code for the latest version of the ace threat lib, it also has the values of 285 base threat, and then a 20% modifier on all damage. Lacerate doesn't scale with AP, so the maximum average threat you're likely to get when attacking is about 300 threat. Swipe on the other hand does scale with AP, with 7% of AP being added to your base damage. If you have good enough AP, crit and to get your average swipe damage up to more than 300 damage then it will generate more threat per attack than lacerate.

The issue is also complicated by blocks and weapon skill. Pretty much every TBC boss has a chance of blocking and will block for more than lacerate hits for and in those cases it generates no threat. Having weapon skill helps, but even at the infamous +5 level it doesn't negate block completely.

The lacerate threat issue was discussed in the bear tanking thread. Dukes came to the conclusion you need to do about 225 average damage (non crit) to generate more threat.


My personal standards for lacerate and swipe back when it seemed to be nearly comparable in threat -

Bleed immune I will swipe at 180 damage.

Non-Bleed immune I will swipe at 200 damage.

I used these numbers and not the 225 from Dukes stats simply because I feel I tank with a higher crit rate than most other bears.

Since I have gotten 4pt6 and my swipes often push 250 to 300 I will only ever Lacerate on mobs that are taking ridiculously low damage from melee attacks, the only one I can think of at the moment is the Bloodboil trash during shield wall phases. I use Lacerate so rarely at this point that it is quite near Rake is usefulness, preventing rogues from restealthing or vanishing in the arenas or world pvp.

Lacerate seems to be more of a spam tanking ability for non-ferals that hop into bear to hold aggro on something, and not an ability that we (ferals) are supposed to use for raiding.

#52 seminarca

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 08:29 AM

One thing to keep in mind for Lacerate is the damage it does. After building up a 5 stack, one could conceivably spam Swipe and only use Lacerate to refresh the stack to keep the damage rolling.

WWS says I got:
23,442 dmg over an ~8 minute Lurker (worst case example because of having to refresh the stack after each submerge)
40,582 dmg over an ~8 minute Morogrim (better, the stack never falls)
46,494 dmg over a ~10 minute Magtheridon

It's a nontrivial amount of damage imo. I've been following the 225 figure, I believe it was calculated for a 30% crit rate.

#53 Kink

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 08:55 AM

One thing to keep in mind for Lacerate is the damage it does. After building up a 5 stack, one could conceivably spam Swipe and only use Lacerate to refresh the stack to keep the damage rolling.

WWS says I got:
23,442 dmg over an ~8 minute Lurker (worst case example because of having to refresh the stack after each submerge)
40,582 dmg over an ~8 minute Morogrim (better, the stack never falls)
46,494 dmg over a ~10 minute Magtheridon

It's a nontrivial amount of damage imo. I've been following the 225 figure, I believe it was calculated for a 30% crit rate.


This is what I do. Simply stack the stack and then use swipe, only lacerating whenever the stack is about to fall. I think it is by far the best threat for your time you can get. This is of course in unlimited threat situations.
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#54 Filmnio

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 08:57 AM

is it possible to macro two seperate on use trinkets to a single rip macro?

Ive tried

/use 13
/use 14
/cast rip

but it only works when 13 is on CD

#55 Farstrider

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 09:03 AM

Most on-use trinkets have some sort of shared cooldown. Check if you can activate them both seperately immediately one after the other, and still hit rip straight away. If you can, I'm not sure why that macro wouldn't work.
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#56 The Grog

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 09:05 AM

Kir, one thing you seem to have forgotten is non-set items.

,

Not to mention going with strait +Hit is pretty bad compared to +agi/+hit even when not hit capped, you don't actually need yellow sockets to activate the RED, just gems that "count" as yellow.


I don't go into the non-set items because they tend to drastically complicate the discussion. It was intended strictly to illustrate the best T4 pieces to wear as compared to T5&6. Besides, those are all not 5 piece slots and not what I was talking about. While you can shuffle some gems off into those pieces, and you should, the primary effect of wearing those on the analysis is shifting the hit differences on the helms and shoulders into agility differences. Or str/crit differences in the case of the T4 helm, but that's the only place I'd voluntarily put a str/crit gem.

As for hit, I believe very strongly that you should always be hit capped when possible. Even for ferals, my spreadsheet shows better returns point for point than anything else even though hit doesn't have the overwhelming lead that it does for rogues. Yes, you can use agi/hit gems if you want to cut some hit, but that doesn't really change the comparisons a whole lot except in helm/shoulder differences and those aren't exactly major. Yes, str/crit gems can be used instead if you already happen to be hit capped but they're pretty bad as opposed to the other yellow options. I've always had to struggle to get to the hit cap, but my raid runs 4 rogues, 2 dps warriors, a enh shaman, and 4 hunters in the roster so getting hit jewelry was not easy.

#57 The Grog

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 09:16 AM

The common double use trinkets for druids are a bloodlust/crystalforged combo, and those do have a lockout timer on them. Er, you may also need stopcasting commands in there.

#58 Weidekuh

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 12:19 PM

My trinket macro:

/stopcasting
/use Crystalforged Trinket
/stopcasting
/use Bloodlust Brooch
/stopcasting
/cast Rip(Rank 7)


works perfectly

#59 Ducimus

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 01:50 PM

My trinket macro:

/stopcasting
/use Crystalforged Trinket
/stopcasting
/use Bloodlust Brooch
/stopcasting
/cast Rip(Rank 7)


works perfectly


I finally decided to try this macro yesterday and I have to say I love it. However, if you don't have those trinkets equipped or if they're on cooldown, the macro will generate errors. To get rid of those errors, you can use the following script line. Just add it after each instance of the /use command.

/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


#60 monstor

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 06:08 PM

My trinket macro:

/stopcasting
/use Crystalforged Trinket
/stopcasting
/use Bloodlust Brooch
/stopcasting
/cast Rip(Rank 7)


works perfectly


That seems like a nice macro, I might try that without the Crystalforged Trinket because I am using hourglass.




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