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#1 Chicken

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 03:20 PM

The protection article in the Theorycrafting Think Tank is currently being rewritten for WotLK. Sorry for any delay.

#2 JulianMaiev

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 04:15 PM

You might want to mention +8 stamina as a hand enchant option, via leatherworking. Also, +armor to cloak is an option.

I'm not sure the full legwork has actually been done on this, but given that some of our new itemization has +spell hit on it it may be a decent time to do a full rundown on the effect of +hit, +expertise, and +spell hit on our threat.

The abilities to which these each contribute:

+expertise affects melee damage, SoR damage, and contributes to preventing parry haste from mobs.

+hit affects melee damage, SoR damage, and Avenger's Shield.

+spell hit affects JoR and Righteous Defense primarily, but also contributes slightly to threat from Consecration, BoSanctuary, Holy Shield, and other damage shields such as Retribution Aura and Thorns.

It's a little bit annoying that we need so many +hit stats to max our threat, but I guess we can just throw more +spell damage at the problem and get it done that way-- although with less consistency than our +hit/+expertise maxed warrior cousins on most of the main threat abilities. (Tclap, Demo, and Taunt for them are on spell hit.)

#3 novasphere

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 04:32 PM

You might want to mention +8 stamina as a hand enchant option, via leatherworking. Also, +armor to cloak is an option.


I saw a +10 Stamina armor patch in the 2.3 PTR that was available for quite a few slots, including hands and shoulders. Not bad, I'd say.

I'd also like to add that Spell Hit helps those people who use Seal of Vengeance while tanking, since the proc can be resisted. It's not 100% confirmed either, but apparently Precision will affect spells in 2.3, so keep that in mind as well.

#4 Theras

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 08:05 PM

(Tclap, Demo, and Taunt for them are on spell hit.)


I'm pretty sure Thunderclap was changed to physical damage (and consequently physical hit rating) around the same time they buffed it to include an attack speed debuff.

#5 Ubok

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 08:19 PM

I'm pretty sure Thunderclap was changed to physical damage (and consequently physical hit rating) around the same time they buffed it to include an attack speed debuff.


Not true, for some godawful reason it´s still a spell and can therefore be resisted (which it does quite often). On another note, you might want to include the that are coming in 2.3.

#6 bellator

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 08:51 PM

Nice guide chicken

You may want to add a little about the announced ZA/Heroic badge tanking loot as it's looking really really nice. Items with high amounts of Stam, +dmg but not wasting itemization on Int (unlike Lightbringer) and gear which doesnt give massive avoidance levels (thus negating threat from blocks) but giving very high levels of shield block value. I would go as far to say the heroic/ZA loot is close to being as good as BT tanking loot due to the much better itemisation.

#7 Chicken

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 09:24 PM

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll probably make a few updates tomorrow and I'll take a bit of a better browse through all the new goodies that'll be added in 2.3.

I'd appreciate if an Alliance paladin could post a few details on how Seal of Vengeance works exactly, mostly looking for information on how it's procs works, and it's scaling. I do know a few basic pieces of information (That it's PPM based for example, and that it's potentially nice on fights with periodic aggro clears), but that's about it.

#8 Theras

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 10:20 PM

Not true, for some godawful reason it´s still a spell and can therefore be resisted (which it does quite often). On another note, you might want to include the that are coming in 2.3.


I'll take your word for it, then. That seems a little buggy for a physical ability to resist, but when did anything about the spell system make sense, eh?:)

I'd appreciate if an Alliance paladin could post a few details on how Seal of Vengeance works exactly, mostly looking for information on how it's procs works, and it's scaling. I do know a few basic pieces of information (That it's PPM based for example, and that it's potentially nice on fights with periodic aggro clears), but that's about it.


Seal of Vengeance is approximately 20 PPM. The proc can only trigger on a successful melee hit, and the proc can be resisted seperately. It stacks up to five times - refreshing the duration every proc - each stack does a base of 30 damage per tick, and each stack gets (roughly) a 4% spell damage coefficient per tick. It ticks once every 3 seconds. So that 5 stacks maximum, each stack gets 5 ticks, 4% per tick means a 100% coefficient over the 15 seconds at a full stack. I verified these numbers on Live just now.

When you have five stacks on the target, procs will instantly deal 2% of your spell damage to the target.

The Judgement deals 120 damage per stack currently on the target, and receives a normal 42.86% coefficient for an instant attack, regardless of how many stacks are present.

Much like how you can stack up absurdly high rolling Lifeblooms with trinkets and Power Infusion, you can get absurdly high Seal of Vengeance stacks by having damage trinkets, Avenging Wrath, or Power Infusion present when you apply the first stack of Holy Vengeance. So if you had an Icon of the Silver Crescent on my gear (493 spell damage, plus 16 from Improved Divine Spirit, plus 80 from a Holy flask, plus 23 from food, plus 40 from weapon oil; 850 total with the trinket up), with Power Infusion and Avenging Wrath up when I applied my first stack, it would tick for 436 every 3 seconds (276 TPS).

The big weakness of Seal of Vengeance, however, is its inconsistency due to its proc-based nature, which is further compounded by how fast tanking weapons tend to be.Assume you're using a Gladiator's Gavel at 1.6 speed, so the proc rate is ~ 0.533% per hit, you are missed, dodged, or parried about 15% of the time, and the proc resists 17% of the time. That means any given swing only has a 37.6% chance to proc Seal of Vengeance, which isn't all that hot in fights that may also contain an element of movement.

#9 bellator

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 10:50 PM

Theras. Are you sure you are getting a 100% coefficient for the SoV Dot?

I was sure there was only an 85% coefficient ie (750 + 85% Spell Damage) / 15 seconds.

And when i just tested this on live, it matched the 85% coefficient. Did you have some % damage modifier (1HWS/Crusade) etc on?

#10 Theras

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 11:13 PM

Theras. Are you sure you are getting a 100% coefficient for the SoV Dot?

I was sure there was only an 85% coefficient ie (750 + 85% Spell Damage) / 15 seconds.

And when i just tested this on live, it matched the 85% coefficient. Did you have some % damage modifier (1HWS/Crusade) etc on?


I have one handed weapon specialization, but I took that into account. For example, at 493 spell damage I was getting 257 to 258 damage per tick from Holy Vengeance, where the base damage is 157.5 per tick with the talent.

258 - 157.5 = 99.5 to 100.5
100.5 / 493 = 0.202 to 0.203
0.203 * 5 ticks ≈ 100%

#11 bellator

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 11:47 PM

I have one handed weapon specialization, but I took that into account. For example, at 493 spell damage I was getting 257 to 258 damage per tick from Holy Vengeance, where the base damage is 157.5 per tick with the talent.

258 - 157.5 = 99.5 to 100.5
100.5 / 493 = 0.202 to 0.203
0.203 * 5 ticks ≈ 100%


I know this may sound silly. But you didn't happen to test SoV on the ogres just by shattrah (as it is where i always go), and didnt notice that you also had Blessing of Auchindoun as this 5% buff plus on top of 1HWS and 85% coefficet would also show 257 to 258 ticks:-

(750+493*0.85)*1.05*1.05 = 1288.88 damage / 15 = 257.7 per tick

I myself have forgotten about this blessing numerous times on testing.

#12 Theras

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 11:59 PM

So I did. And looking back on my log I did indeed get the tower buff. Mystery solved.

#13 Prinsesa

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 02:58 AM

Which in turn means you need either 72.4% miss/dodge/parry/block without the Libram, or 67.1% with the Libram.


You forgot to factor in the base 5% miss rate, which would make the uncrushability requirements 62.07% without the Libram, or 67.4% with it.

You also might want to add this macro, which will accurately display your current avoidance total. Put it on a button, activate Holy Shield then push that button to determine if you're uncrushable or not:

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combined avoidance. Currently at:",0.8,0.8,1)
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 + 20)*0.04,1,0.5,0)

Keep in mind when gearing up however that crushing blows are (for the most part) only an issue of mobs of level 73 and bosses. If you feel you will never tank either of those, being uncrushable is a non-issue.


I'd like to throw in that if you're not going to tank any level 73 mobs, then your defense target is 485, instead of 490. Also, mobs in resist fights do not crush (do we have a comprehensive list of this? I think Illidan doesn't crush either).

and Righteous Fury increases your threat output by 30% for it's duration.


Don't you mean Avenging Wrath?

As for caster weapon progression, the is a very solid choice once it becomes available via the honor system. It has more STA and spell damage than the , in addition to being faster.
"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

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#14 vokzhen

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 03:33 AM

and might want to be added.

I'm not a pally by any means, however I was under the impression the highest threat from seals/judges was keeping JotC on the target, keeping SoR on yourself, and judging righteousness every opportunity. That's probably overly simplistic, especially if you have Seal of Vengeance available, but is that a good general idea on bosses?

EDIT: Amani Punisher - Wowhead

#15 Cathela

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 06:54 AM

Well done, Chicken. I was working up something like this, but couldn't get beyond the first page. A few thoughts for additions that might be useful:

A section on armor. Something evaluating the relative merits of armor vs stamina. Someone did this in the old thread; I'll try to dig it up and make it pretty.

A section on fight-specific notes. A lot of people posted in the old thread asking "I'm about to start tanking _______. What should I do?" I'm thinking specifically about some of the trickier fights like Hydross, Voidreaver, Al'Ar, Leo, and maybe Morogrim and even Prince. This could have like a paragraph for each fight summarizing the gearing and tactics for the fight, and then links to the posts in the old thread where people discuss them. I'll work on this too, unless you want to dig these up yourself.

Great work so far!
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#16 Chicken

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 09:22 AM

You forgot to factor in the base 5% miss rate, which would make the uncrushability requirements 62.07% without the Libram, or 67.4% with it.

You also might want to add this macro, which will accurately display your current avoidance total. Put it on a button, activate Holy Shield then push that button to determine if you're uncrushable or not:

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combined avoidance. Currently at:",0.8,0.8,1)
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 + 20)*0.04,1,0.5,0)

My numbers are correct actually, I did factor in the base miss rate, but forgot to take into account the base miss rate isn't shown on the character screen which in turn makes my post a bit misleading. The macro is a nice addition though.



I'd like to throw in that if you're not going to tank any level 73 mobs, then your defense target is 485, instead of 490. Also, mobs in resist fights do not crush (do we have a comprehensive list of this? I think Illidan doesn't crush either).

I should add that.



Don't you mean Avenging Wrath?

Yes, I did. Will fix.

As for caster weapon progression, the is a very solid choice once it becomes available via the honor system. It has more STA and spell damage than the , in addition to being faster.

That's a good idea to add once it does become available through honor yes. It'll probably be the fastest to get epic tanking weapon at that point as well.

A section on fight-specific notes. A lot of people posted in the old thread asking "I'm about to start tanking _______. What should I do?" I'm thinking specifically about some of the trickier fights like Hydross, Voidreaver, Al'Ar, Leo, and maybe Morogrim and even Prince. This could have like a paragraph for each fight summarizing the gearing and tactics for the fight, and then links to the posts in the old thread where people discuss them. I'll work on this too, unless you want to dig these up yourself.

That's a good idea too. Fits well under the tanking advice section. I was actually kinda planning this, but only got around to writing some generic advice to start with.


A section on armor. Something evaluating the relative merits of armor vs stamina. Someone did this in the old thread; I'll try to dig it up and make it pretty.

That would be deeply appreciated as well.

#17 Chicken

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 11:06 AM

I've added a few updates, mostly to the gear section. Currently browsing a bit through the MTanking Viability thread for an idea of which bosses to give some advice for and for other ideas in regards to thread additions.

I'll probably also add a spellhit vs. hit vs. expertise section after some analysis of each stat and the benefit it brings to each of our abilities.

I'm also contemplating adding a bit more detail to the gearing section in regards to what kind of tanking to try and gear for. Currently what kind of tanking you gear for is largely decided simply by what tier of content you are at though, but the new loot introduced in 2.3 really does bring a bit more choice in regards to whether you want to simply maximize stamina and armor, whether you want high block values, or whether you want high avoidance.

Edit:

Browsing through the thread a few tips on how to avoid having to drink up to full after every single pull in a 5-man seems a good addition as well.

In addition to giving advice giving some rough guidelines on health levels to expect while uncrushable at varying levels of gear could be good additions too, as would levels of spell damage at various gearing levels.

I should probably also look into quantifying the exact spell damage per TPS number better. The current 0.5 I use is very, very rough; it was based on untalented spells (outside of Righteous Fury) but also no resists, figuring those two would balance out, but I doubt they really do in practice, so the number might be either higher or lower.

#18 Chicken

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:05 AM

Added a few more updates, including a section with tips on tanking the Murlocs at Morogrim.

#19 Trafficante

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 08:57 PM

I know this is a low content post, but I just wanted to thank you for making this thread. I'm a holy paladin looking to start tanking to get ready for 2.3, and this thread has helped immeasurably already.

#20 Denogran

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 09:22 PM

Helpful macros would be a good thing to add in as well. I'm at work, so not positive these are the correct ones, but I use the following macros quite often (Find our taunt to be nearly unusable without the second macro).

Bubble-cancel Bubble:
/cast Divine Shield
/cancelaura Divine Shield

and

Taunt (selected mob or mobs targeting selected player ).
/cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget] Righteous Defense




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