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#21 Chicken

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 10:05 PM

Helpful macros would be a good thing to add in as well. I'm at work, so not positive these are the correct ones, but I use the following macros quite often (Find our taunt to be nearly unusable without the second macro).

Bubble-cancel Bubble:
/cast Divine Shield
/cancelaura Divine Shield

and

Taunt (selected mob or mobs targeting selected player ).
/cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget] Righteous Defense

That's a good idea, thanks.

I've also been fudging around a bit with a talent calculator to get a good idea of which talents are likely to need a comparison to each other, as well as potentially suggest a few builds for the next patch. Doing so actually gave me a few good insights on my own spec for the next patch as well, the sacrifice I'm going to have to make for it isn't as large as I'd anticipated, though keeping those 20 points in holy does get tricky with Tier 7 of our talent tree containing 8 points of good talents, tier 8 containing 5 points of good talents, and tier 9 obviously being good for being Avenger's Shield. I'll most likely write up a section on talent decisions with a few suggested specs tomorrow.

I'll probably also add some advice on Al'ar, Kael and Shade of Akama soon; and possibly a short section on what kind of gearing you need to tank Illidan, despite not having personal experience with this the information posted over on the MTanking Viability thread by Teckbot covers all I need to know to write some tips. Then again, I'd guess that if you're a Paladin tanking Illidan you'll be unlikely to need any tips. Ah well, who knows.

Images for how the hit table works are also still in progress, I just hate doing graphical work compared to writing.

#22 Denogran

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 10:54 PM

I'll probably also add some advice on Al'ar, Kael and Shade of Akama soon; and possibly a short section on what kind of gearing you need to tank Illidan, despite not having personal experience with this the information posted over on the MTanking Viability thread by Teckbot covers all I need to know to write some tips. Then again, I'd guess that if you're a Paladin tanking Illidan you'll be unlikely to need any tips. Ah well, who knows.


Along those lines, a section with a prot-pally's role in every fight might not be the worst thing ever. My guild's on Vashj, and (hopefully) soon on Kael, and I know coming up through SSC I was often questioned by my guild leader as to what I would be capable/good at doing. Doesn't have to be complicated, expect on those fights where we really kick ass (the ones you mentioned). But a list to be able to show a GL or RL to justify your spot on the fight/raid would be handy. I know the old thread was Paladin Main Tanking, but I'd imagine there are a fair amount of paladins out there who are more in an OT position like myself.

HKM - Tank High King, priest or warlock.
Gruul - Tank or heal. If you're sadistic/have a million spare mana pots OT. Make sure and time Holy Shield for Reverbs.
Mag - Channeler or Mag.
Hydross - Hydross or add(s). Can tank multiple adds easier with a very good resist set (>250 each buffed).
Lurker - Submerged inner ring adds or Lurker
TW - explained above
FLK - Pet is easiest, followed by Hunter, then priest if you have help on interrupts, then FLK/shammy (from what I've read it's a toss-up, personally haven't done either).
Leo - Channeler/ Leo. Arguably better than a warrior as it's easy to kill inner demon in full tank gear.
Vashj - Vashj/Naga tank. Don't need more than 2 tanks here.
Al'ar - Awesome add tank, can tank Al'ar too
VR - MT (i.e. pull), heal or if sadistic/have a million spare mana pots can OT.
Solarian - Trash alone justifies a prot pally, useful for gathering AoE adds during the fight.

And that's all I've seen. I'd love to have a list like that for KT/BT/Hyjal though. Much easier than reading through those 50+ page threads on each fight( or the ungodly long pally MT thread) to figure out what I might be useful at.

#23 Yelp

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:16 AM

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combined avoidance. Currently at:",0.8,0.8,1)
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 + 20)*0.04,1,0.5,0)

I've seen this macro on the official forums several times, but I haven't been able to figure out how it's not wrong.

Per the character screen, I have 286 Defense Rating, giving me +120 Defense Skill (286 * 150 / 355 = 120.8, round down), for a total of 490 Defense Skill ( adding that 120 to 350 base + 20 talent).

The function GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL) returns Defense Skill (120.91054534912 for me), not Defense Rating. There's no need to multiply it by 150 / 355, from what I can see.

Am I not understanding the formula properly?

#24 Chicken

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 10:02 AM

I have no idea on that regard, I just copied and pasted it in myself after giving it some in-game tests and it works. I'll do some further testing on it though.

As for Denogran, while I understand what you're talking about, in general a lot of fights in Hyjal/BT are basically capable of being handled by any kind of tank. There are a few exceptions here and there (E.G. Paladins might make a better infernal tank at Anetheron due to superior ranged aggro capabilities, and the mechanics of the Reliquary of Souls fight makes Paladin tanking on it unwise unless your guild severely outgears the encounter). Generally speaking it can be covered by the fact that "If it's multiple adds that spawn that need to be aggroed solidly fast, you're the best choice for it". I'll still add a section for it if though, but a lot of bosses can actually be summarized as "Do whatever your guild needs you for most in this fight".

Edit:

Any updates I'll be making will be held off until the weekend. I have a busy time today and tomorrow.

#25 Poggrid

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:37 PM

Along those lines, a section with a prot-pally's role in every fight might not be the worst thing ever.

Gruul - Tank or heal. If you're sadistic/have a million spare mana pots OT. Make sure and time Holy Shield for Reverbs.


FWIW, our OT whenever we do Gruul is a Paladin. (Our MT is a druid...yes we do things backwards.) He never complains about mana issues, but he might be chugging Ogri'la pots. Last night with a shadow priest in his group and JoW up on Gruul, he used one mana pot. He does not usually have a shadow priest, I believe, but JoW is often up on Gruul.

He has ~13.5k HP unbuffed. We have Gruul on farm and are making forays into Mag's lair and SSC.

#26 Denogran

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 05:20 PM

FWIW, our OT whenever we do Gruul is a Paladin. (Our MT is a druid...yes we do things backwards.) He never complains about mana issues, but he might be chugging Ogri'la pots. Last night with a shadow priest in his group and JoW up on Gruul, he used one mana pot. He does not usually have a shadow priest, I believe, but JoW is often up on Gruul.

He has ~13.5k HP unbuffed. We have Gruul on farm and are making forays into Mag's lair and SSC.


Sure, your mileage may vary. I was stating what I've seen, and to this point the dps has basically outgeared me, meaning I really have to work my ass off to stay ahead of them. On a fight like Gruul, I'd rather heal or "DPS" than worry about the tanking.

As for the list, I know that not all fights will have a distinction. But I'd love for this thread to be somewhere I could point my guild leader and raid leader and be like, "There, that's how prot paladins work. Those are fights we kick-ass on. Those are the fights where we'll struggle on." Where I'm at now, my guild finally trusts me as a *tank," and I don't forsee much trouble going forward. But I've definitely had tells in the past along the lines of "I'm not sure how protection paladins work, and what your role would be for this fight, so I need to sit you."

Most writeups, videos, etc of boss kills don't have paladins tanking. Most of the threads in these forums start out with several pages of strategies without paladin tanks, because the people doing the first kills pretty much didn't use us. So when my Raid Leader reads a strat, they aren't necessarily looking for how to best use a tankadin, but more how to kill the boss period. So it's up to me to suggest what I should be doing, like "Hey, I can tank so-and-so in this encounter." A quick-list of paladin tanking roles on various bosses would be invaluable for me to link to, and most likely fairly helpful to people just starting their 25-man progression as prot.

If there's anything I can help with, let me know. I've been meaning to create a Prot Pally 101 post for my own guild for some time, but haven't had the spare time, so thanks!

#27 Rylas

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 06:59 PM

Might also be worth stressing how important it can be to get your DPS to give you those first few seconds to get aggro before they start opening up with the AE. DPS with an itchy trigger finger can make picking up AE packs a lot more challenging. I know I've heard of having DPS hold off a few seconds referred to as "common sense" in other threads, but if people are going to be looking at this thread for a definitive idea of how to utilize prot pallies, it might be helpful to let them know it's important.

#28 Chicken

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 07:58 PM

Ah that's a way of thinking about making a list of things a Prot Paladin is good for that hadn't occured to me. I guess it makes sense not all of us are guild masters and/or raid leaders themselves. It should be easy enough for me to compile something like that, especially since I have experience with pretty much doing anything in tier 4 and tier 5 content, not in tier 6 content, but I have pretty broad experience there as well by now.

And good point about telling people to give their pallies a chance to aggro. I'll probably cover that properly in the Hyjal section since it matters a lot there.

#29 Abynthe

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 12:27 AM

It's worth putting in a section covering general stuff you need to tell people who've never raided with a prot pala before.
I spent an inordinately long time explaining to my newest guild why one shaman spamming lesser healing wave was not sufficent to keep me up because of the difference in incoming burst between warriors and paladins.

#30 Bop

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 02:33 AM

hey folks, apologies if this isn't the correct thread to ask such a question but I have a request for some theorycrafting for a protection paladin.

Firstly, this is regarding the changes to some of the talents in patch 2.3. These talents are Vindication, Persuit of Justice and Seal of Command. I've been experimenting with the talent calculator on WoWhead and found that by losing 1 handed weapon specialisation, I have the following choices;

3/3 Vindication and 2/3 Persuit of Justice, or 3/3 Vindication and Seal of Command with 1 talent point spare to put in something else.

So the question is, How effective is vindication when tanking things like trash mobs in raids? I'm aware most bosses are immune to the effect. Also, is a -2 or 3% chance to be hit by a spell going to make much of a difference when tanking spell casting mobs? and, if the benefits are substantial in any way, is the loss of the 5% damage from 1 handed weapon specialization still too much of a loss to justify taking those talents.

Also in regards to seal of command, my thinking was getting a slow 1 hander and using the seal for something like offtanking might be a better choice then tanking with seal of righteousness or vengeance. The randomness of seal of 'casino' makes me unsure however.

I'm sorry if this question has already been covered but I couldn't find any information on it.

#31 Fiola

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 02:50 AM

Observation of Vindication on PTR:

Using pitbull to see the exact mana values, Vindicaiton reduced caster mob mana from 3231 to 2916.

That's a difference of 315 mana points, or around 10~%.


Not knowing mob health values, I couldn't really test how much it reduced their HP, but I was able to test if it had any effect.

I attacked a self-healing mob (treants in NE part of Auchindon crater), applied Vindication, allowed the treant to heal to full, and then watched Vindication fade. When Vindication dropped, the mob % hp dropped from 100% to 96% (there might have been a regrowth tick in there, but I was mostly interested in seeing if it affected HP at all). So the % Sta reduction does work, though it won't be 15% of their total HP, obviously.


In other words, Vindication does indeed affect mob stats if the debuff sticks.

#32 Wolftusk

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 03:04 AM

You may also want to include: [Ogri'la Aegis] as one of the initial Shields. It's fairly easy to get with the Ogri'la and has a potential of having more stamina with the right gems.
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#33 Bop

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 03:59 AM

Observation of Vindication on PTR:

Using pitbull to see the exact mana values, Vindicaiton reduced caster mob mana from 3231 to 2916.

That's a difference of 315 mana points, or around 10~%.


Not knowing mob health values, I couldn't really test how much it reduced their HP, but I was able to test if it had any effect.

I attacked a self-healing mob (treants in NE part of Auchindon crater), applied Vindication, allowed the treant to heal to full, and then watched Vindication fade. When Vindication dropped, the mob % hp dropped from 100% to 96% (there might have been a regrowth tick in there, but I was mostly interested in seeing if it affected HP at all). So the % Sta reduction does work, though it won't be 15% of their total HP, obviously.


In other words, Vindication does indeed affect mob stats if the debuff sticks.


That leads to the question - how much does stamina account for raid trash HP? and would vindication on a trash mob amount to a 4%~ HP drop on a mob with say...100k hp.

Thanks for sharing the testing you've done Fiola. I'm going to use that method and check mob health drops with the use of beastlore if possible as it shows the mobs current and max health values. Should be very accurate.

#34 Snowy

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 04:10 AM

You may also want to include: [Ogri'la Aegis] as one of the initial Shields. It's fairly easy to get with the Ogri'la and has a potential of having more stamina with the right gems.


Good call. Might want to show something like this:





The first is good to add since sometimes you might not get a certain drop for a long time, while the Aegis is a sure item if you get the rep and items to turn in for it.

#35 Bop

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 05:07 AM

I've found Figurine of the Colossus To be a useful trinket for a protection Paladin too. It's really a golden on use ability when tanking multiple mobs at once.

#36 galzohar

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 07:06 AM

Unless it's more significant than 4% it's probably going to be quite useless on trash... 4% on a trash mob takes like what, 1 second? And any DPS done before vindication procced reduces the effect. If the reduction is 4% and the raid does >=4% damage to the mob before vindication procced your vindication had done absolutely nothing when it comes to killing the mob faster.

#37 kallio

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 08:03 AM

Just a quick question: doesn't the fact that with PTR 2.3 all seal and judgment scaling comes from AP rather than from spelldamage totally trash spelldamage as a stat for Prot Pallies ?

Or did i missunderstand the changes made to improve raidperformance of our Ret brothers ?

#38 Youngblood

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 09:12 AM

Just a quick question: doesn't the fact that with PTR 2.3 all seal and judgment scaling comes from AP rather than from spelldamage totally trash spelldamage as a stat for Prot Pallies ?

Or did i missunderstand the changes made to improve raidperformance of our Ret brothers ?

EDIT: You gave me quite a scare there, but it seems like you have misunderstood the changes. When I asked around in the cesspit.. erhm... I mean on the official forums, I quickly got the reply that no, seal and judgement damage still benefits from spell damage, not attack power. According to the replies, that has not been changed. (See this thread.) I hope they are correct.

Original message:
Eeeek?! Now I'm worried. Could someone please check or confirm if paladin judgement and seal damage scales with AP instead of spell damage on the PTR?

If I have understood correctly, that would entail a significant threat generation nerf for protection paladins.

Please put my troubled mind at ease by saying ain't so. Sorry if this is considered off topic, but I feel that this thread was the best place to ask.


#39 Xequecal

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 10:11 AM

Does anyone know if the proc on Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal is considered Holy damage? If it is, it's 57 threat per second from that item alone, more if the proc is affected by spell power. (I doubt it.)

I'm not in BT, so I don't know how hard it is to get, but it seems to be fairly easy. I hear you have to kill some BT bosses to get to the vendor, so I'm not sure how difficult it actually is.

#40 RadicalSS

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 01:30 PM

Great guide! Could you add resilliance mechanics to the first section please?




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