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#41 Cathela

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 02:32 PM

Just a quick question: doesn't the fact that with PTR 2.3 all seal and judgment scaling comes from AP rather than from spelldamage totally trash spelldamage as a stat for Prot Pallies ?

Or did i missunderstand the changes made to improve raidperformance of our Ret brothers ?

What you're referring to was a rumored change that would have affected SoC/JoC and Crusader Strike, but nothing else. That change never materialized (or at least it hasn't yet) but regardless it wouldn't have affected non-Ret paladins.
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#42 Wolftusk

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 04:08 PM

Something that i find very confusing is the whole topic about weapon speed. I know it's been talked about in the viability thread, but i think it could be useful to place a summary under the gear section.

Also, i think it would be beneficial to place some comments about what gear you should equip when a protection paladin is not tanking or off tanking and how to DPS "effectively" as a protection paladin. I know it has also been talked about in the viability thread, but i think it would be nice to summarize it here as well.

Just some thoughts. Great thread tho, i already found it to be very useful.
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#43 Questioner

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 04:39 PM

Weapon Speed for Protection Paladin
--------------------------------------
Personally, I have found it to be a non-issue completely. Both slow and fast weapons have their pros and cons.

Fast Weapon ( under 2.0 ): More consitent threat. The less time between weapon swings, the less a dodge or parry will hurt you in terms of short term threat per second. With a speed under 2.0, you will lose some of the direct benefit or reckoning, however you will gain the ability to take better advantage of repeated reckoning procs. Fast weapons also proc utility judgements such as JoW more often, as they are % based rather than PPM. A con is that you will have more parries with a faster weapon, thus take slightly more spike damage.

Slow Weapon( over 2.0 ): Less consistent threat due to dodge/parry, but takes better advantage of reckonings 4 swings. The dps/threat gain of any weapon over 2.0 speed is exactly the same over time. Slower weapons also have a higher chance to proc SoV for alliance paladins choosing to use it.

Speed has no effect on SoR dps, as it is normalized to the weapon speed.

This topic will probably die even moreso with 2.3, as I forsee reckoning being cut from many MT builds in favor of more mitigation(CoEx)/more consistent aggro(Precision/ISotC).

#44 Questioner

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 05:02 PM

Looking at the OP, I find a lot of it seems to be focused on what we might call a Maintankadin. Many protection paladins often find themselves in a shared role for this and should take note of different strategies/gearing for different roles they might play. It can be very rewarding playing a prot paladin that is not maintanking (Morogrim, Al'ar come to mind first).


Gearsets for a Protection Paladin
-------------------------------------
Main Tank Set: This set is designed for tanking the hardest hitters or progression content. Focus on maximizing stamina and armor while maintaining uncrushability. We are no different than warriors in this respect, as it has been proven that constant, low damage is far more healable than spike damage that you would gain by increasing avoidance instead of mitigation.

Threat Set: This set is designed for aoe fights or fast fights where you must obtain and build aggro very fast. Look for the paladin specific gear with spell damage, and spell damage trinkets like and .

Block Value Set: This set is designed for aoe tanking many mobs for longer durations. The idea is to reduce the mob hits to near zero. The is great for this. 2.3 is introducing many new block value items as well. With a full block value set, a paladin will be able to block approximately 1000hp post-mitigation hits.

Non-tanking Damage Set: I haven't done the numbers to be honest, someone should probably get on it. Personally I use a spell damage set (my threat trinkets and the lamellar pvp gear, some of the tier items). I know some horde use a retribution style set with SoB instead of SoR. Irregarless, turn off Righteous Fury or you will die faster than an Enhance Shaman without salvation.

Healing Set: Do not take offense to being asked to heal. Some fights there just is not room for many tanks, and the best you can do for the raid is heal. This set should not be like a holy healing set, but rather focus on healing and mp5, as crit does little for a non-Illumiation build.

Additionally, you will want to get a set of 20 slot bags, as on any given raid you may use all 5 of these sets. Oh, and don't forget your resist gear for Hydross. Suckers!

#45 Denogran

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 05:52 PM

Additionally, you will want to get a set of 20 slot bags, as on any given raid you may use all 5 of these sets. Oh, and don't forget your resist gear for Hydross. Suckers!


O man, so true, I've been too cheap to buy the 20-slotters, but it's always embarrassing to tell a mage "Can you just give me 2 stacks of water? I'm out of bagspace." I've actually not taken side-grades before because it wasn't worth it to throw something out.

If you're primarily an off-tank I'd suggest concentrating first on a threat set. In my experience, the off-tank's tend to have their target dps'd down first, so you need to be able to pump out the threat fast in order for the dps to be able to light it up.

But don't neglect your high stamina, high mitigation set, low threat set either, even if you're not going to be MTing anything. Often, if you're assigned a target that's not going to be dying for a couple of minutes (last channeler on mag, last FLK add), staying alive is the hard part, and keeping the mob on you is near trivial. In these cases, you can pretend you're a warrior and play with items like .

#46 Cromfel

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 06:03 PM

Do you mind adding to the enchant section something comparing Scryer shoulder enchants vs and Aldor vs . These aint really that important but the head enchant comparison should be pretty valid when you want to squeeze more spell damage and get spell hit in addition. versus ?
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#47 PsiVen

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 06:10 PM

Good stuff here. I'd add to the Shield section, its low stamina puts it below Kaz/Illidan but the massive armor beats Aldori.

#48 Denogran

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 06:54 PM

Do you mind adding to the enchant section something comparing Scryer shoulder enchants vs and Aldor vs . These aint really that important but the head enchant comparison should be pretty valid when you want to squeeze more spell damage and get spell hit in addition. versus ?


I prolly missed this somewhere in that Main Tanking thread, but a stat value comparison between spell damage and stamina would be great, as these are the easiest to flask/food/oil to compensate for.

#49 Chicken

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 07:55 PM

Thanks for all the contributions while I was away. Expect a lot of the suggestions to pop up in the main post over the course of the next few days.

Good point on the multiple alternative shields to start out with especially, thanks.

As to the spell damage versus survivability choice for enchants, I'd say that's largely dependent on how well geared you are and how you feel about your aggro. I'd actually recommend if at all possible to keep some of your old gear around and enchant those optimally for spell damage, while setting your new gear to survivability (Generally I find that if you want more aggro, you generally don't mind losing the survivability, so using an older gear set is better for it).
When I get around to adding a list of suggested protection padin roles for each fight in the game though, I could probably include a note on whether it's a role in which you should probably favor survivability or where you should favor threat.

#50 Naive

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 10:34 AM

I've never done any paladin tanking to date, but I've started putting together a tanking set for the hell of it. One thing that I think this guide lacks is any discussion on the different builds paladin tanks can use. For example, your build is a lot different than other prot paladins I've seen. Care to add something to that extent?

EDIT: Woops. I see you have it in your Future Additions section.
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#51 Stallo

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 10:53 AM

This is a great threat, but can you also add the TPS for Seal of Vengeance, Judgement of Vengeance and Blessing of Sanctuary?

#52 galzohar

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 09:47 PM

I rerolled pally and had the honor to tank an instance, but couldn't get a proper "taunt" macro to work - aka target the mob and have the macro cast righteous defense on its target. That way if I lose aggro all I have to do is hit the macro rather than assisting the mob, casting righteous defense and then targetting the mob again.

(Searching for macro info on google got me pissed off as it lead me to multiple sites that sell books about WoW macros... :()

#53 frmorrison

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 10:11 PM

You are right, the macro should be in the OP, since it is important.

This came up in the first google hit, your googlefu is weak:

/cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget,help] Righteous Defense

#54 s4dfish

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 10:33 PM

I like to add [target=none] to the end of that macro so that you don't need to change targets to taunt off a party member, just use the macro and use your glowy hand. Thus the macro looks like:

#showtooltip
/cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget,help] Righteous Defense; [target=none] Righteous Defense

#55 galzohar

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:29 PM

I was trying to come up with a holy/prot spec for end-game that will keep the healing capability of regular healing specs while still maintaining minimal offtanking capability:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I got the idea for it when I read and heard about a lot of protection paladins finding themselves healing more often than tanking, but when they were tanking they were *needed* to tank. Yet nobody likes to respec several times a week especially not during 1 raid, although if you're *really really* hardcore I suppose this kind of spec is totally useless to you as you can just respec per fight.

What you lose from raiding capability as a healer is imp LoH (which is kinda sad but it's the only thing I think is droppable) and the buff flexibility (buff kings only). In 2.3 (and if you specced into it beforehand) you lose some judging capability (especially the new improved judgement of the crusader). For these reasons this spec is losing a lot of viability when you have less than 3 pallies in a regular raid, so let's make it easy and say for now that it's not worth speccing into it if you're not regularly raiding with 3 pallies, as you kinda want minimum 2 paladin healers.

My real question is not the ability to heal with that spec, that's pretty obvious. What I was wondering is what you'll actually be able to tank with that spec. Obviously crush immunity isn't possible so tanking bosses isn't going to happen, and you don't have the stamina/damage reduction for it anyway. I was wondering more about tanking stuff like murlocs on morogrim, elementals on hydross, hunter pet and/or hunter on karathress, adds on astromancer/al'ar, offtanking void reaver etc. I don't have experience in BT/hyjal so I didn't include any fights there but I was wondering if there are fights there where this kind of spec could swap gear and tank those fights.

For tanking this spec obviously lacks damage reduction and HP buffing and maxed threat but it does have the basic armor/defense and imp righteous fury and seal of righteousness which seem to be the majority of your threat, although it's probably still a noticeable threat drop from full prot with holy shield.

For non-raid content: I doubt this spec would have any difficulty MTing regular 5-mans but would it be reasonable for heroic MTing? It seems to me like at least the easier heroics should be doable with it when you can't find a tank.

Is this spec actually going to be of any use in raiding (of any level) or is it completely pointless and one should forget about it and just choose between tanking and healing?
While I don't really know (which is why I made this post, to see people's replies), I would guess it would fair fine for at least 5-man/heroics MTing and kara/gruul/mag offtanking plus possibly a select few fights in SSC/TK, and if that's the case at least it would be good for fresh-70 paladins who want to catch up to the top-end-game.

#56 galzohar

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 11:30 PM

#showtooltip
/cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget,help] Righteous Defense; [target=none] Righteous Defense


I thing I understand the "/cast (...) Defense" but what does the rest of it do and is it needed?

#57 Bop

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:27 AM

I thing I understand the "/cast (...) Defense" but what does the rest of it do and is it needed?


The [target=targetstarget] is basically a /assist without actually switching target the mobs target, the spell you write in after (I.E Righteous Defence) is the spell thats cast on your targets target.

I'm not sure what the rest does exactly, but my macro of < /cast [target=targetstarget] Righteous Defence> works fine when I wish to taunt the mob i'm hitting back to me.

#58 Aramul

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 02:33 AM

I like to add [target=none] to the end of that macro so that you don't need to change targets to taunt off a party member, just use the macro and use your glowy hand. Thus the macro looks like:

#showtooltip
/cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget,help] Righteous Defense; [target=none] Righteous Defense


This can be written shorter as follows:

#showtooltip
/cast [help] [target=targettarget,help] [] Righteous Defense

The conditions are checked seperately, in order, and all reference the same spell. The empty [] casts the spell as normal (as if clicked in spellbook without a macro).

#59 Daedelus

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 02:34 AM

I was trying to come up with a holy/prot spec for end-game that will keep the healing capability of regular healing specs while still maintaining minimal offtanking capability:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

*snip*

For non-raid content: I doubt this spec would have any difficulty MTing regular 5-mans but would it be reasonable for heroic MTing? It seems to me like at least the easier heroics should be doable with it when you can't find a tank.

Is this spec actually going to be of any use in raiding (of any level) or is it completely pointless and one should forget about it and just choose between tanking and healing?
While I don't really know (which is why I made this post, to see people's replies), I would guess it would fair fine for at least 5-man/heroics MTing and kara/gruul/mag offtanking plus possibly a select few fights in SSC/TK, and if that's the case at least it would be good for fresh-70 paladins who want to catch up to the top-end-game.


A lot of the avoidance for a protection paladin comes later in the tree with Holy Shield and Ardent Defender so losing those if you are hoping to off tank seriously would put a pretty big dent in your mitigation which should be your first and foremost port of call if you are even considering being a tank of any kind.

Your spec is very holy heavy so it probably would be great for threat generation but in some of the heroics where the mobs tend to hit a bit harder (Slavepens and Mechanar spring to mind) you might find your healers getting slightly flustered at times unless you all severely out gear the content.

At present something like:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
would be fine for doing both, of course you lose some efficiency (through extra crit on HL / FoL) and bonus healing due to missing out on the higher tier holy talents but provided your healing gear is up to standard the efficiency should still be adequate for healing in raids and heroics provided you have good control of your healing.

You will lose the 10% stam from WE in 2.3 but if you are just off tanking then that build (and assuming you have decent gear) should be fine without the extra stamina due to the things you will be tanking.

#60 Denogran

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 05:36 AM

I was trying to come up with a holy/prot spec for end-game that will keep the healing capability of regular healing specs while still maintaining minimal offtanking capability:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
...
Is this spec actually going to be of any use in raiding (of any level) or is it completely pointless and one should forget about it and just choose between tanking and healing?
While I don't really know (which is why I made this post, to see people's replies), I would guess it would fair fine for at least 5-man/heroics MTing and kara/gruul/mag offtanking plus possibly a select few fights in SSC/TK, and if that's the case at least it would be good for fresh-70 paladins who want to catch up to the top-end-game.


This spec is a fine holy spec, but you're really going to feel fairly gimped while tanking, unless your tanking gear is _awesome_. You're losing out on significant health (sacred duty, ardent defender), significant threat generation (reckoning, one-hand spec, holy shield), and a lot of avoidance (precision[ret tree], holy shield, shield spec). Depending on your dps/healing, you could be ok, but they'd have to play pretty nicely with you. Without holy shield, you're going to get hit unmitigated a lot, and without sacred duty you're going to have a lot less health available to drop.

It's a good spec if you're guild needs a healer, and then someone who can occasionally take a coupla blows. Although I'd switch out Defensive Aura with Redoubt personally, especially if you have AoE tank aspirations.




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