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Retribution DPS Theorycraft


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#21 Prinsesa

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 02:52 AM

Is this supposed to be a Retribution Paladin Megathread? I've often wondered how I should gem my sockets as Ret. I placed a on my meta socket, while the red sockets are getting , the yellow sockets are getting and the blues are getting .

In any case, I'm *extremely* excited about the incoming threat reduction, which pretty much seals the deal for the already crotch-kickingly awesome changes.
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#22 GSH

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 02:55 AM

Yeah that was the original cycle. Not like it is hard to add to the list for comparison. But is it better to loose fraction of SoC uptime and delay JoC because of that? You have time window for reseal between AA timer anyway. So the effect should be extremely minimal.


The general algorithm for DPS is to use your higher DPS abilities before your lower DPS ones. JoC is lower DPS than SoC. Therefore, prioritizing JoC over SoC does not make intuitive sense.

#23 flyingtoastr

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 03:13 AM

Are there any BE pallys available to get some sort of DPS comparison between SoB and SoC? I know SoB is superior in general, but by how much?

#24 DarKNecross

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 03:39 AM

Here's the OpenOffice friendly version of the Sanctified Crusader spreadsheet:
Sanctified Crusader Contribution Calculator(.ods)

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#25 bellator

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 11:43 AM

Nice thread,

Cromfel, there's actually a slightly later version of the dps model (version 8) here:-

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I plan to include different dps cycles into the model to make it more realistic in terms of damage output (as it assumes everything can be used on CD)

I also plan to include a mana analysis tracking overall mana over time. damage per mana of abilities etc.

But these are still all in the works, so don't pester :P If anyone can tell me how i make the spreadsheet open office friendly, will do so


Cromfel, for more dramatic effect, you man want to rewrite:-

"DPS Difference 11% less with R1
Mana consumption 55% less with R1"

as:-

"DPS increase using R6 = 11%
Mana consumption increase using R1 = 125%"

#26 johsgrd

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 12:00 PM

Are there any BE pallys available to get some sort of DPS comparison between SoB and SoC? I know SoB is superior in general, but by how much?


I could test it. What are good mobs for testing this on? Are the ones in Blasted Lands any good for this? (I assume they have very low armor, but for comparison between SoC and SoB it doesn't matter, I guess.) Oh, by the way, being a blood elf, I haven't cared so much about gearing for spell damage, so it's below 200.

#27 bellator

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 12:31 PM

Checking it-
Okay, here's what I figured out (and I corrected a couple math errors from the previous ones)
Posted Image

They're so incredibly close, I'd actually probably use the 5th rotation instead of the 4th, since it has a bit more wiggle-room. So yes, the 8sec Judgement only judging when it won't interfere is probably the best choice.


I'm not sure if this has been said or is taken as granted, but the readon why the two cycles are incredibly close is that they are in effect the same cycle. Both allow CS to be used on cooldown and give 100% SoC uptime. The only difference is the JoC rotation. The "9 sec judgement" uses JoC every 9 seconds. The "8 sec Judgement, judged only when GCD up" has varying times between judgements, but the average time between judgement is exactly 9 seconds.

The minor "total damage" difference between these two is due entirely to the first 1.5 seconds (starting off with either CS or Judgement/SoC). After this first 1.5 seconds the dps of the two cycles is exactly the same.

Thus it is not worth getting the second point in improved judgement as you will never be able to judge on average once every 9 seconds without loseing either SoC or CS damage

#28 bellator

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 12:33 PM

Are there any BE pallys available to get some sort of DPS comparison between SoB and SoC? I know SoB is superior in general, but by how much?


If you check out my model, it shows both SoC/SoB dps. SoB produces about 5% more dps than SoC.

#29 ein3360

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 12:34 PM

I've been playing my retadin for roughly 5 months now. My question is as the title states: which pally melee skills are affected by critical strike rating, and which ones are affected by spell critical strike rating? Normally I just try to go as overhaul as I can with the regular critical strike rating, mainly due to the fact of my uncertainty about which skills are considered spells and which are not. If someone could clarify this for me, I would be greatly appreciative of it, because I'm really looking to maximize my effectiveness, as everyone likes to do.

#30 Cromfel

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 01:35 PM

I've been playing my retadin for roughly 5 months now. My question is as the title states: which pally melee skills are affected by critical strike rating, and which ones are affected by spell critical strike rating? Normally I just try to go as overhaul as I can with the regular critical strike rating, mainly due to the fact of my uncertainty about which skills are considered spells and which are not. If someone could clarify this for me, I would be greatly appreciative of it, because I'm really looking to maximize my effectiveness, as everyone likes to do.


Melee Crit Rating:
Hammer of Wrath (Melee hit rating)
Seal of Command (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Command (Spell hit rating)
Seal of Blood (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Blood (Spell hit rating)
Crusader Strike (Melee hit rating)

Spell crit rating:
Exorsism (Spell hit rating)
Holy Wrath (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Vengeance (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Righteousness (Spell hit rating)
Eye for an eye (Spell hit rating)


Is that all?
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#31 BoinKlasik

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 02:27 PM

You might want to consider adding an itemization section much like the enhancement shaman post. However I can be no help there because I have no idea how to itemize a retribution paladin (gogo prot!).

#32 Xequecal

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 02:48 PM

If you check out my model, it shows both SoC/SoB dps. SoB produces about 5% more dps than SoC.


Does Seal of Command proc Windfury Totem? I know SoB does, and if SoC doesn't it'll put SoB even further ahead.

#33 DarKNecross

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 03:05 PM

Does Seal of Command proc Windfury Totem? I know SoB does, and if SoC doesn't it'll put SoB even further ahead.


I don't believe either special procs the Totem, however SoB does proc off the Extra Attacks while SoC doesn't.

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#34 DarKNecross

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 03:12 PM

I'm not sure if this has been said or is taken as granted, but the readon why the two cycles are incredibly close is that they are in effect the same cycle. Both allow CS to be used on cooldown and give 100% SoC uptime. The only difference is the JoC rotation. The "9 sec judgement" uses JoC every 9 seconds. The "8 sec Judgement, judged only when GCD up" has varying times between judgements, but the average time between judgement is exactly 9 seconds.

The minor "total damage" difference between these two is due entirely to the first 1.5 seconds (starting off with either CS or Judgement/SoC). After this first 1.5 seconds the dps of the two cycles is exactly the same.

Thus it is not worth getting the second point in improved judgement as you will never be able to judge on average once every 9 seconds without loseing either SoC or CS damage


Actually, I noticed how similar mostly when I was testing them out in Blasted Lands last night. Once you get going, they're almost identical - but it's actually hard to get to the next tier of Ret without putting 2 points in Imp Judgement. Also, chaining the GCD from SoC into CS proves sometimes more difficult than CS->SoC, since you can judge while the GCD from CS is going, and reseal right after.

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#35 Modano

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 03:22 PM

So not to bring up an overly discussed topic, but with weapons like Jin'rokh coming out haste seems to be getting more and more prominence, and I've gotten conflicting statements from people on haste and SoC. As I understand it, and as older posts on EJ confirm, haste rating used to have no impact on SoC's proc rate, as SoC's % was based purely on your weapon's speed, not your actual swing rate, but someone followed up and countered that, saying that it was changed in the last patch (i.e. 2.2). Now, reading 2.2 only brings up the already discussed haste rebalancing, but says nothing about affecting proc rates of skills. Is SoC still purely based on old weapon speed or are we going to receive limited benefits from the upcoming haste gear from ZA?

Because if it's based on weapon speed, I really need to start kicking myself for passing on the scarab everytime I ever ran Mech.

#36 Prepared

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 03:25 PM

But these are still all in the works, so don't pester :P If anyone can tell me how i make the spreadsheet open office friendly, will do so


It seems to be a two-fold problem. Firstly, OOo is not compatible with Excel's macro language at all, so things like the buttons and drop-downs don't function at all. Also, any fields that seem to reference hidden fields don't function. Things such as the totals for stats, the row with values for Blessing of Kings, etc, all give 502 errors (Invalid argument; Function argument is not valid, for example, a negative number for the root function.)

I'd help decipher the issues, but I have never actually worked with macros, and can't figure out what's going on in the hidden cells. Perhaps this will help anyone who's working on this.

--edit--

There are actually a few fields that do function in the top section for "Information". "Base Information" is static, so that obviously works, but strangely things like "Hit", "Crit", "Dam (S)", work.

Going through the steps on how things are totaled out, it seems to be that the calculations for trinkets is where the problem lies. IE: if I completely remove the "Strength" column for trinkets and the libram, the stat totals from gear comes out to an actual value with no error, and then the overall total works fine... until you factor in Divine Strength, which breaks it again. D:

#37 bellator

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 04:00 PM

So not to bring up an overly discussed topic, but with weapons like Jin'rokh coming out haste seems to be getting more and more prominence, and I've gotten conflicting statements from people on haste and SoC. As I understand it, and as older posts on EJ confirm, haste rating used to have no impact on SoC's proc rate, as SoC's % was based purely on your weapon's speed, not your actual swing rate, but someone followed up and countered that, saying that it was changed in the last patch (i.e. 2.2). Now, reading 2.2 only brings up the already discussed haste rebalancing, but says nothing about affecting proc rates of skills. Is SoC still purely based on old weapon speed or are we going to receive limited benefits from the upcoming haste gear from ZA?

Because if it's based on weapon speed, I really need to start kicking myself for passing on the scarab everytime I ever ran Mech.


The Proc % of SoC is based on 'hasted' weapon speed thus haste will not increase the ppm of SoC.

(*Note this is assumed based on tests of SoV showing that it's ppm was not increased from haste. Whilst this isn't conclusive proof for SoC it is very likely to be the case)

#38 bellator

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 04:03 PM

I don't believe either special procs the Totem, however SoB does proc off the Extra Attacks while SoC doesn't.


Are you certain SoC cannot proc off a Windfury proc? I was under the impression that so long as the swing that procced WF did not proc SoC that the WF extra attack could proc SoC (ie you couldnt have 2 SoC from 1 swing, but either white attacks in the swing could proc it)

#39 Modano

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 04:03 PM

The Proc % of SoC is based on 'hasted' weapon speed thus haste will not increase the ppm of SoC.

(*Note this is assumed based on tests of SoV showing that it's ppm was not increased from haste. Whilst this isn't conclusive proof for SoC it is very likely to be the case)


Rough. So essentially the only benefit from haste is auto attack damage, which isn't bad but it's going to be hard to justify when I watch swing #3 in a row without an SoC proc.

#40 DarKNecross

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 04:13 PM

Are you certain SoC cannot proc off a Windfury proc? I was under the impression that so long as the swing that procced WF did not proc SoC that the WF extra attack could proc SoC (ie you couldnt have 2 SoC from 1 swing, but either white attacks in the swing could proc it)


I don't actually remember having seen an SoC proc from a WF generated attack, however it very well could. I remember reading somewhere that it wouldn't.

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