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PvE to PvP transfers are long overdue.


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#21 Symbul

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:18 PM

I've been on that line for a long time. PvP leveling vs PvE has been the same experience for a very long time. I've leveled on both and it was all equally boring.

My biggest gripe with my PvE-levelled character isn't that I can't go and kill Horde players trying to farm or quest, it's that the quality and quantity of players is lower on PvE. Seriously. I even transferred off to a server in my main server's battlegroup (I'm mainly Horde as is shown on the left) and it was the same bad playerbase there. Everywhere I looked, Rogues with too-fast Mainhands, too-slow Offhands and other stuff of the sort, 0-1 guild per faction in Naxx at all and the Pugs generally atrocious.

Not saying everyone is elite on PvP but I was dismayed by my experience with PvE servers. I think it's different in the US and maybe on the high pop PvE servers in EU though. Doesn't the US have more PvE servers than EU anyhow? Anyway I picked PvE on release day for no real reason. Emerald Dream just sounded like a cool name for a realm. I'm pretty sure a lot of players are in the same boat.

#22 Benegesserit

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:20 PM

How is that pulling their heads out of their asses? Their rules have stayed the same, and as you said you agreed to them when you transferred, why would you think, or expect anything different?


I agreed to bite the bullet on a stupid rule, that doesn't mean I didn't like it. I expect Blizzard to again, pull their head out of their asses and remember that not everyone is transferring a sub-70 character from PvP, nor has PvP become that much of a real thing anymore.

I'd agree that putting in a petition for the transfer was futile, but the purpose was to squeeze out the reasoning behind the rule, knowing that it wasn't going to change anyway. When the only reason provided was the one immediately debunked (for having leveled on PvP), I come again to the conclusion that Blizzard needs to get their head out of their asses and change it. PvE to PvP transfers are long overdue.

If you want to have a fair debate do not encapsulate this issue into how hard or how easy it is to level on a PvP server.


Tell that to Blizzard. That appears to be the entire arguement their reasoning hinges upon.

#23 Kir

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:21 PM

I was on the same server as FoH, Hyjal, and transferred a level 20 something alt over when it was available. I thought it might be fun to play on a pvp server, and I sorta twinked my guy with like 40g for the 20-29 BG bracket. I left my main, at the time, on hyjal. That money was long gone by the time I was in any kind of contested zone and got past 29. I ended up leveling him to 39 because I felt there was little diversity or challenge in the 29 bracket. 39 was still easy, as was 49 (by this point, it was simply because of mages being very good in BGs back then, I was not considered a 'twink' once I was in my 30's).

In any case, the only time I ever got slightly frustrated at all, was the last 2-3 levels to 60, trying to AE farm Western Plaguelands. Very rarely, I would get some alliance mage come in trying to do the same thing, who generally out-geared me and started ganking me while I AEd. If he was really persistent, and I couldn't take him, I just went and soloed somewhere else. Wasn't really a big deal.

The ironic part is, on a PVE server, he could have just flagged himself and stood in my AE to get me flagged and then ganked while I was pulling anyway. Would have made me an open target to any other alliance too, and other horde generally just stare at you rather then get flagged themselves. On PVP servers, other people are more willing to help stop a ganker.

I leveled the mage for TBC, from day 1 that the xpac hit. Most people will remember the unspoken truce that existed in the packed zones as everyone leveled, so using that argument is sorta weak too. When the zones are overpacked, and everyone is leveling, most of them tend to not want to get into pvping. People generally only want to gank in world zones, not get into long drawn out PVP battles unless there is something to be gained.

In other words, it's some perceived notion that those who leveled on PVP servers had it so much harder then those who leveled on PVE servers. It seems to only exist with those who have never played on a PVE server, and from someone who has leveled on both, it's such a minor difference that it does not warrant this outright ban on transfer.

At the very least, put the time restriction stated above (minimum of X days played), and only to certain PVP servers that are older, not the brand new ones (which they wouldn't let lvl 70's of any server transfer to for a long time, anyway).

#24 Solari

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:22 PM

I think the main problem Blizzard now perceives with opening PvE->PvP transfers is ruining the server communities on these PvE servers. While it isn't exactly common to see those in support of PvE servers being vocal about it (on Blizzard's forums or similar medium), I think that currently that those who quietly wish they had chosen to play on PvP (and would transfer given the option) far outnumber those happy with their PvE server environment. As such, if this change was implemented at the current time without thorough risk assessment, we could very easily see a fair number of PvE servers turning into ghost towns.

This is possibly unlikely to change in the near future, as world PvP has been in decline for some time, and as such this change could spell doom for some of the smaller PvE servers. In addition to this, the mad scramble for those on PvE servers to transfer to the more popular PvP servers could possibly lead to unnecessary server stress and overcrowding (after all, look what happened to Mal'Ganis when half of Arthas decided to jump ship and transfer there last year).

#25 Benegesserit

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:29 PM

and as such this change could spell doom for some of the smaller PvE servers.


A lot of small servers are already doomed due to the lack of player base with which to provide a stable economy, good raiding pool, and active community. This change would simply give them an out. The problem with the issue you brought up was Blizzard's reaction to the whines for more and more servers. It sounded like lot of them came from people who want to level race again. For the people in overpopulated server, Blizzard implemented a different system to get people moved over to other designated realms to ease the load.

#26 Emeraude

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:30 PM

I would have agreed that PvE to PvP transfers would be unfair....like a year and a half ago when people were getting ganked right and left in every zone from 1-60, and everyone was in the Old World.

But we all know 1-60 areas are pretty dead for the most part, the risk of getting ganked or having a confrontation is very very low.

And people leveling in the 60-70 range have better things to do then gank(Like getting a flying mount to gank with!), the most PvP action I ever see is at a random meeting stone.

The War in Warcraft is pretty much dead at this point. I don't see why they don't open up transfers. I look forward to carebearing with the Horde in Dalaran for WotLK(Except Ghando, he smells) ^^

#27 squiffy

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:31 PM

Repairs can also get frustrating, members of both faction in the eye love to park their mounts on the repair guy making it very difficult to click on the repair guy without accidentally attacking the alliance player.


Ctrl-V is your friend.

To those saying the difference between PvE and PvP nowdays is negligible, that depends entirely upon the server. My home server Blackrock, is still as viscious and gank prone in the traditional areas today, as it was upon release day. Depending on how bored the opposite faction is, some days it is impossible to level in areas like STV and TM.

That said, I'm in favour of open server transfers regardless of type.

#28 JamesVZ

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:32 PM

I think the main problem Blizzard now perceives with opening PvE->PvP transfers is ruining the server communities on these PvE servers.


You can make the same argument for character transfers in general. Adding in a new set of players to any established community is sure to disrupt the culture -- however, the character transfer system implemented so far is widely lauded and embraced by the general populace.

Claiming that PvE servers suck and many people want to leave them because they suck and that it would ruin PvE servers completely is a seperate issue in my opinion, and if it were true that Blizzard was holding off on opening PvE to PvP transfers due to such an irrational fear simply as nothing more than a stop gap measure (we still have not seen any ideas from them to fix low population servers), it would paint them in a much more malicious light than I think any of us view them as. I don't think they link the two problems together either, I just think they haven't really thought about it in awhile.

#29 Ghando

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:33 PM

I leveled the mage for TBC, from day 1 that the xpac hit. Most people will remember the unspoken truce that existed in the packed zones as everyone leveled, so using that argument is sorta weak too. When the zones are overpacked, and everyone is leveling, most of them tend to not want to get into pvping. People generally only want to gank in world zones, not get into long drawn out PVP battles unless there is something to be gained.

In other words, it's some perceived notion that those who leveled on PVP servers had it so much harder then those who leveled on PVE servers. It seems to only exist with those who have never played on a PVE server, and from someone who has leveled on both, it's such a minor difference that it does not warrant this outright ban on transfer.


First, having been a popular guy with the local Alliance on Detheroc, there were bounties on my head all through the levelling process that absolutely made my life difficult. It's not typical but it still substantially increased my leveling time and affected my gameplay. And having been through STV very soon after launch...that place was like 'Nam. If you were in there, you were "in the shit." It ultimately didn't "break" anything but leveling or questing or farming on a PvP server is fundamentally different. As a Resto Shaman, I am easy pickings for any enterprising DPS classes that decide to gank me while doing my dailies (until 2.3 :D). Screw this "most people don't bother ganking" claim...in my experience most people will immediately gank you if they have an opportunity (especially if they outnumber you) and will carebear it up if they're at a disadvantage. Depending on the situation, my daily quests can take between 20 minutes and 2 hours solely because of PvP. Extrapolate that over months and it adds up.

All that being said, I don't care if they open up these transfers. Hell, it would make some people happy and Blizzard would make some extra cash, so they probably should. But if they're gonna make a philosophical point about it, I can see where they're coming from.

#30 Benegesserit

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:35 PM

Ctrl-V is your friend.


No interest of mine to derail this thread, yet I'd like to play Devil's Advocate in support of the person you're attempting to educate and remind you to try that in a royally swamped BG queue area like the one in org and see how easy it is to click on the NPC's bar when it constantly jumps around as players move around and the bars constantly reposition. Sometimes your method works, sometimes it doesn't. A raid of jerks sitting on an NPC is better handled by /target name.

#31 Myonax

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:38 PM

Ctrl-V is your friend.


Obviously you have never played chase the moving bar when your 20 other fellow raid members are also there trying to repair. I have adopted a hoover method where I do not land so that if i mis-click i will not attack. It still adds frustration and daily difficult.

#32 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:39 PM

Do you feel that your ongoing irritations with PVP servers once you've reached the level cap will mysteriously not affect PVE players that transfer to a PVP server?

Then why are you talking about it? The fact that somebody likes to sit on the repair vendor won't change, and it's something that a transfer will have to deal with just as much as you every day forward.

Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.


#33 Smd

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:42 PM

I am on the fence on the issue as a whole, I have a friend who didn't understand the consequences of transferring his druid from a PvP realm to a PvE realm and then couldn't get it back to our realm. Most of the PvP that happens on a PvP server is in the BGs. I think most PvE player have never even contemplated what it means to control the stone, whether that is for 5 mans, 10 mans or 25 mans. PvE -> PvP has very little to do with leveling in my mind and has everything to do with travel and instance control. PvP probably adds 5-10 minutes on average to any individual raid/party members travel time. PvP even hass an effect on doing dailys, once Blades edge or Netherstorm gets crowded people will kill you to get their quest done faster and likewise you will do the same.

If you want to have a fair debate do not encapsulate this issue into how hard or how easy it is to level on a PvP server.


That's fair, but if the real PVP server experience comes from controlling the stones and the like, what difference does it make if you start on that server at 70 (when you start running those instances) or at 1, where you're extremely unlikely to truly try to run an instance at level anyway.

The only valid argument I can see against allowing PVE-PVP transfers is that it would probably overcrowd some of the "better" servers. When looking at PVE server progression to find a viable spot for my transfer, there were generally only one or two servers that met my standards as far as having multiple guilds fairly progressed in raid content. Looking at PVP servers, there are several servers with lots of BT/MH guilds. They probably don't want to cause an influx of people to hit them.

#34 Caligula

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:49 PM

Do you feel that your ongoing irritations with PVP servers once you've reached the level cap will mysteriously not affect PVE players that transfer to a PVP server?

Then why are you talking about it? The fact that somebody likes to sit on the repair vendor won't change, and it's something that a transfer will have to deal with just as much as you every day forward.


Lets just say I wish I had a few level 70's on a PvE server that I could grind dailies with and then xfer to my PvP server.

Yes, I would go through the trouble to avoid spending an hour trying to make 10g and 2 mediocre potions while being constantly ganked mid escort.

This wasn't supposed to be a rant about dailies but, there are differences between a PvE server and a PvP one that people seem to be trivializing but really when you take a deeper look the difference is pretty big.

I honestly think this is blizzards policy to keep farmers/botters from clogging up PvE servers then transferring gold to PvP servers.

#35 Angeron

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:50 PM

A lot of small servers are already doomed due to the lack of player base with which to provide a stable economy, good raiding pool, and active community. This change would simply give them an out. The problem with the issue you brought up was Blizzard's reaction to the whines for more and more servers. It sounded like lot of them came from people who want to level race again. For the people in overpopulated server, Blizzard implemented a different system to get people moved over to other designated realms to ease the load.


True story. The fact is, WoW is experiencing, to a very, very limited extent, what EQ servers experienced during GOD-Omens etc. A dwindling population on certain servers. The smart thing to do would be to merge low-pop servers (hello, this would be a way to start to fix progression blocks and ruined economies) and offer free transfers from high-pop servers to the newly merged servers for x months. This means that raiding guilds could xfer to server Y, and applicants to that guild who debated dropping 25$ for the chance to app can xfer free and have a few other potential destinations to app as well. There are literally a thousand fix options for the current problem. But there IS a problem (a small-medium sized skilled playerbase does not exist on pve servers, but does on pvp), and Blizzard should at least acknowledge it.

Additionally, the lack of pve->pvp transfers causes a massive glut for middle-highend pvp guilds since they only need X people, and there are 100x applicants availible, mostly not keyed, because there's no room for them in established guilds, it's hard to make their own, and there is a relative lack of mid-high-end guilds on PvE Servers (relative being the key word here, let's not get crazy).

A really good example of this is comparing Destromath(pvp) to Dragonblight(pve), horde side. Destromath has three horde guilds in black temple, one of which is top 30 US Illidan and has been top 50 US since BWL, additionally, destromath has 3-5 guilds in SSC/TK, most of which are not progressed far, but some of which are 4/6 ssc 2/4 tk and the like. That's a total of 9+guilds in ssc/tk actually progressing. There are even more guilds that are farming Karazahn.

On Dragonblight, there is ONE guild in Hyjal/BT, they've killed Rage, but no other progress afaik. One guild working on KT, and two guilds with more than VR down in ssc/tk. That's 4 guilds horde side making any sort of progression. Every single other guild is either stuck on gruul, or simply clearing Karazahn.

These are both day 1 servers. Both saw transfers TO them during the server migrations back in 2005. One is significantly further progressed than the other, and could be more so, considering the glut of quality players without quality guilds (destromath), while the other lacks quality players (seriously, complete lack).

I would kill for the chance to move my warrior to destromath, or both my warrior AND warlock from db/destro to a different pvp server altogether.

*edited for wall-of-text* Please excuse the rambling, I'm having trouble being as articulate as the rest of you today.
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#36 Praetorian

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:51 PM

When the initial PvE/PvP division existed, "world PvP" was the only PvP that existed in the game. If you wanted to fight other players, the only possible way for this to happen was to go gank people in the world at large. When the original honor system went in, pre-BGs, you had the Southshore/TM back-and-forth, and you had players roaming around actively looking for players in order to get HKs and honor. That made a huge, huge difference when comparing PvE and PvP servers.

Today, world PvP is virtually dead, and 99% (approximation, but probably not far off) of PvP encounters occur inside a battleground or arena, and those are 100% identical between server types. I leveled an alt to 40 in the past few weeks on a server that is very active and has close to a 1:1 faction ratio. I think I died to PvP five times total, mostly in STV and once in Stonetalon, where I'd get one-shotted by a level 70, run back to my corpse, and go about my business as usual.

Let's say my experience is atypical (and I doubt it, because I played during peak hours and a tagged <EJ> alt is an appealing target, such that virtually every high-level alliance I encountered did stop and try to kill me). Most of us have dozens of days /played. Even if I did spend X hours being camped or corpse-running due to the horrors of leveling on a PvP server, that number still pales in comparison to the total investment in the character.

Also, regarding the "you agreed to the deal when you made your character" argument, when we made our first characters, server transfers didn't even exist at all! No one anticipated them and certainly no one thought when creating a character, "Hmm, if one day server transfers do become available, I bet PvP-->PvE will be allowed but not the reverse, so by selecting PvE as my desired ruleset I am consciously foreclosing the option of ever transferring to a PvP server." Come on.

#37 Diogo

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:53 PM

First, having been a popular guy with the local Alliance on Detheroc, there were bounties on my head all through the levelling process that absolutely made my life difficult. It's not typical but it still substantially increased my leveling time and affected my gameplay. And having been through STV very soon after launch...that place was like 'Nam. If you were in there, you were "in the shit." It ultimately didn't "break" anything but leveling or questing or farming on a PvP server is fundamentally different. As a Resto Shaman, I am easy pickings for any enterprising DPS classes that decide to gank me while doing my dailies (until 2.3 :D). Screw this "most people don't bother ganking" claim...in my experience most people will immediately gank you if they have an opportunity (especially if they outnumber you) and will carebear it up if they're at a disadvantage. Depending on the situation, my daily quests can take between 20 minutes and 2 hours solely because of PvP. Extrapolate that over months and it adds up.

All that being said, I don't care if they open up these transfers. Hell, it would make some people happy and Blizzard would make some extra cash, so they probably should. But if they're gonna make a philosophical point about it, I can see where they're coming from.


I agree completely. Personally, I don't care whether or not they open these transfers. If they make it so that there is an incentive for people to transfer from pve to certain dead pvp servers, it might actually be a great thing.

But the difference between pve and pvp can be considerable. In vanilla wow I took longer to level because I avoided arathi and stv completely. Now those zones might be dead, but there are at least a couple of alliance that have made a name for themselves in gurubashi for corpse camping lowbies, and they do that to this day. Same thing immediately after the release of tBC. They might not be enough to justify not having transfers, but there was a difference.

And the point someone made about controlling meeting stones is dead on. My guild had to play around with starting raid times because 2 alliance guilds raid ssc at the same time we do, so we lose about 2 or 3 corpse runs to get in (nevermind not being able to summon someone), and we've started bringing repair bots along simply because repairing at the npc outside ssc takes a long time when there are 2 enemy raids there. When kara was a hot zone, I got more hks there than in bgs.

I can only imagine that that will get worse for zul aman, especially for alliance (but it will be bad even for horde, as the front gate is contested and therefore flags you).

Now, I will agree that that is not enough to exclude these transfers, especially since with the 3 month cooldown and the 25 dollar fee I dont think people will exploit these tranfers. But the differences are there.

#38 Myonax

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:54 PM

That's fair, but if the real PVP server experience comes from controlling the stones and the like, what difference does it make if you start on that server at 70 (when you start running those instances) or at 1, where you're extremely unlikely to truly try to run an instance at level anyway.

The only valid argument I can see against allowing PVE-PVP transfers is that it would probably overcrowd some of the "better" servers. When looking at PVE server progression to find a viable spot for my transfer, there were generally only one or two servers that met my standards as far as having multiple guilds fairly progressed in raid content. Looking at PVP servers, there are several servers with lots of BT/MH guilds. They probably don't want to cause an influx of people to hit them.


Yep, thats fair too. They would eventually have to experience the same. Like I said I am really on the fence. The longer a PvE transfer is on a PvP server the less of an "advantage" they have. The advantage i refer to is ease of grouping/leveling/questing instancing compared to PvP servers. I have had 5 mans break up because when two of us go tto the stone to summon (CoT) alliance controlled it and the rest of the group refused to make their own way to the instance (plus we would have had to wait 10 minutes for them to get there).

I would be fine with PvE -PvP transfers being enabled in the month prior to expansions. Then the PvE players could experience leveling in a PvP environment. Post expansion you run into the same debate that they could have leveled 70-80 on the pve server and got an easy break.

Ultimately though the advantage of a pve-> pvp player will diminish to nothing after the next major content push. Whether that be a new tier instance or an expansion. So in the long run there shouldn't be any huge issue enabling pve - pvp.

#39 Vontre

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:55 PM

Lets just say I wish I had a few level 70's on a PvE server that I could grind dailies with and then xfer to my PvP server.

Yes, I would go through the trouble to avoid spending an hour trying to make 10g and 2 mediocre potions while being constantly ganked mid escort.


If you're serious about this, I'll point you to some PvP servers that you can already do this on. I'm not kidding. Try Lightninghoof, it's almost a total carebear fest. Probably some servers that are even more carebearish than mine, try playing a hordie on Coilfang with their 80% horde population. That'd make for some easy cash grinding.
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#40 Northerner

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:55 PM

I read your thread on FoH James and I do agree with the premise. As a caveat, I've only ever leveled one character on a PvP server and as an officer on a backwater PvE server I doubt I could ever convince everyone to head off to a PvP server anyhow. So, my background is limited to say the least.

Still, I'd love to be able to recruit PvP server players without the possibility of dooming them to PvE forever. Hell, I'd be fine if they just eliminated PvE servers and flagged zones in ways that made world ganking less of an issue. I love consensual world PvP and absolutely adore it as a method of solving contested spawns and so on. I'm less of a fan of bored 70s camping SV though and although I could have handled it on any of my alts I'm sure, it annoys me when one player can annoy many.




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