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PvE to PvP transfers are long overdue.


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#41 Kir

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:59 PM

Screw this "most people don't bother ganking" claim...in my experience most people will immediately gank you if they have an opportunity (especially if they outnumber you) and will carebear it up if they're at a disadvantage. Depending on the situation, my daily quests can take between 20 minutes and 2 hours solely because of PvP. Extrapolate that over months and it adds up.

All that being said, I don't care if they open up these transfers. Hell, it would make some people happy and Blizzard would make some extra cash, so they probably should. But if they're gonna make a philosophical point about it, I can see where they're coming from.


Right, I didn't say people don't gank. I just said that the scenarios people come up with to justify not allowing transfer are generally exaggerated. i.e. except on the really huge servers, there isn't a bunch of lvl 70s sitting in old world zones ganking all the time anymore, and being at the forefront of the leveling curve now with an expansion, the ganking is pretty low considering the density of the players in the zones. It's just reinforcing your point, people only gank when they have an advantage. If the zone is packed, like hellfire the first week of TBC, everyone carebears up because there's a ton of opposing faction right there too.


I also think a lot of people are underestimating how many people would actually transfer TO PvE servers FROM PvP if they knew they weren't going to be locked on PvE servers forever. Progression is generally slower on PvE servers, and I think one big reason is that your potential recruiting pool is so much smaller since no one wants to make a permanent switch like that.

I don't think all the PvE servers would become ghost towns as everyone goes to PvP. I think low population servers would definitely stay the ghost towns that they already are. But, I doubt any medium-high pop servers would suffer huge hits.

#42 Angeron

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:59 PM

The longer a PvE transfer is on a PvP server the less of an "advantage" they have. The advantage i refer to is ease of grouping/leveling/questing instancing compared to PvP servers. I have had 5 mans break up because when two of us go tto the stone to summon (CoT) alliance controlled it and the rest of the group refused to make their own way to the instance (plus we would have had to wait 10 minutes for them to get there).


On the other side of this (rather hysterical) situation, lies the situation on PvE servers, where the lack of people even attuned for heroic's makes getting a group together an hour long affair(even if you are a geared tank), often interrupted by people bitching about wait times, afks, etc. I've done the group thing on my warlock on a pvp server, it's not as bad as finding a group on a PvE server.
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#43 Northerner

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:00 PM

When the original honor system went in, pre-BGs, you had the Southshore/TM back-and-forth, and you had players roaming around actively looking for players in order to get HKs and honor. That made a huge, huge difference when comparing PvE and PvP servers.


To be fair (and not that it impacts your overall point whatsoever) back in those days TM/SS was incredibly active on PvE servers as well. Even though we were outnumbered 3:1 or worse, we had a heck of a lot of fun defending the hill of doom from various bubble-consecrate waves for days on end. Well, actually, we'd lose the town pretty often and slink off until the alliance figured out that razing the place meant and end to fun and the cycle began anew.

TM/SS PvP was pretty silly but it certainly was fun too. It had massive flaws of course but I did enjoy it more than BG PvP at least.

#44 Icetro

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:14 PM

My home server Blackrock, is still as viscious and gank prone in the traditional areas today, as it was upon release day. Depending on how bored the opposite faction is, some days it is impossible to level in areas like STV and TM.

That said, I'm in favour of open server transfers regardless of type.


Speaking as a fellow Blackrock denizen, I will certainly second the notion that the leading cause of death for any horde toon under level 65 or so is a night elf hunter by the name of Xsniprwlfmoonx or some variant thereof. I have only played WoW on PvP servers, so I've come to accept the fact that if some bored 70 running around STV decides my poor alt rogue no longer deserves to live, I'll get ganked and that's that.

I agree with the OP insofar as the PvE -> PvP transfer prohibition seems largely outdated and irrelevant at this point. You do not stand to save any meaningful time at all by levelling on a gank-proof server. The popular argument runs something like PvP players are better than PvE players, and Blizzard has always been OK with letting players "disadvantage" themselves, either by PvPing on an offspec or jumping into a world in which you could possibly be outclassed by your competition.

My one trepidation with regards to this is the fact that some of the "big name" PvP servers could get a fair few transfers to them. Blackrock certainly doesn't need more players, and I imagine those of you on Mal'Ganis feel much the same way.

#45 Kalman

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:26 PM

My one trepidation with regards to this is the fact that some of the "big name" PvP servers could get a fair few transfers to them. Blackrock certainly doesn't need more players, and I imagine those of you on Mal'Ganis feel much the same way.


Easily solved by disabling those servers as transfer targets. If they don't need more players, they don't need more PvP players either.
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#46 Leene

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:30 PM

Having leveled on a few different servers, both pvp and pve, has made me realize that it's not so much about what kind of sever you're leveling on as it's about what the player base on said server is like. I'm currently in the progress of leveling an alt on a pvp server, I haven't been ganked more then I can keep track off so far. On the other hand when I leveled up on a full pvp realm I wanted to gouge my eyes out after spending some time in STV and Searing Gorge, but this was during periods when lots of people were leveling in these zones (New server and the days after the BC release). These days, with almost empty zones, the argument of easier leveling falls pretty flat. Now as a holy paladin at 70 trying to farm motes, what I wouldn't have given for the ability to farm without constantly being jumped by alliance players. This is the only real difference that's noticeable to me that still exists in a real way.

What I do think is keeping this rule in place might be the fact that allowing people to transfer away from their currently dying pve servers could cause a sudden influx to the "popular" servers and this is something that usually brings along the same old problems with lag, server crashes and disconnects during raids. Now one could argue that an open end server transfer might actually help said pve servers in the way that they could recruit of pvp servers, but I still believe that the fear of the worst case scenario is what's keeping this old rule in place.

#47 Shalas

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:31 PM

On Warsong there is always a continual battle at raid gathering point and whoever has the largest numbers controls the 25 man summoning stone. SSC if your faction isn't in control can take up to 2-3 death runs to get from the water to the portal. In Netherstorm if you don't control the stone you may have to wait 10 minutes for your 60% mount people to either take the Flightpath from Shatt to the eye.

Strangely enough, I don't remember having to wait for people to fly out to EPL when we didn't have warlocks standing around outside of Naxx. If only there was still some way for people to be at the raid instance on time without getting a summon.


Repairs can also get frustrating, members of both faction in the eye love to park their mounts on the repair guy making it very difficult to click on the repair guy without accidentally attacking the alliance player.

Because of how flag mechanics work, the exact same thing is possible on PvE servers. If clicking on a NPC without attacking an enemy player is so hard for you, you could always just turn off automatic dismounting.

The trivial added difficulty to raiding would only be significant if PvE servers had significantly higher progression than PvP servers. It's not like you'd be able to raid on a PvE server, then transfer to a PvP server and dominate -- if anything, you'd do it the other way around. In addition, if PvE -> PvP is bad because PvE is easier, then shouldn't high pop -> low pop also be forbidden? On Tich I can trivially get multiple heroic pugs per day which have a good chance of clearing the instance, and there are dozens of Kara pugs which will clear most or all of the instance. My Shaman has only been 70 for a month, but I still could probably find a server where I outgear anyone not in the one raid guild.

Lets just say I wish I had a few level 70's on a PvE server that I could grind dailies with and then xfer to my PvP server.

Yes, I would go through the trouble to avoid spending an hour trying to make 10g and 2 mediocre potions while being constantly ganked mid escort.

This wasn't supposed to be a rant about dailies but, there are differences between a PvE server and a PvP one that people seem to be trivializing but really when you take a deeper look the difference is pretty big.


I've been attacked while doing the escort once, and it was when I stole the prisoner from a group of four horde waiting for the last person to fly over. Clearly I shouldn't be able to transfer from Tichondrius to a less carebear PvP server.

#48 Axanor

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:35 PM

The trivial added difficulty to raiding would only be significant if PvE servers had significantly higher progression than PvP servers.

And of course, they don't. In fact, the reverse is true. PvP servers have far more progression guilds than PvE servers. Especially Horde-side, making it near-impossible to find a decent guild if you want to raid.

#49 squiffy

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:42 PM

No interest of mine to derail this thread, yet I'd like to play Devil's Advocate in support of the person you're attempting to educate and remind you to try that in a royally swamped BG queue area like the one in org and see how easy it is to click on the NPC's bar when it constantly jumps around as players move around and the bars constantly reposition. Sometimes your method works, sometimes it doesn't. A raid of jerks sitting on an NPC is better handled by /target name.




Obviously you have never played chase the moving bar when your 20 other fellow raid members are also there trying to repair. I have adopted a hoover method where I do not land so that if i mis-click i will not attack. It still adds frustration and daily difficult.


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#50 Yichimet

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:47 PM

If I can give probably an outside-to-this-forum experience, I have a level 60 warrior collecting dust on an RP-PvE server because RP-PvP was not made available at the start of WoW. I want them to enable these transfers because they made a mistake in not enabling these server types at the start of the game, and I was forced to choose between a regular PvP server--not for me--and an RP server, a mildly more palatable but less than ideal solution. When they opened the new server types, off I went to my new home. Bye bye warrior I spent a year and a half on.

I understand the reasoning behind the initial decision to not allow the transfers, but as everyone has already said, the PvP levelling experience nowadays is hardly burdensome to the point of unfairly giving advantage to any PvE server transfers. C'mon, let me bring my warrior to a place where he's PLAYED again. Please?

#51 Cromfel

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:54 PM

The problem here is that you assume world pvp being dead and irrelevant. But I think its still in blizzards todo-book that world pvp gains its meaning. If we had any reasons or fun activity created for world pvp and world pvp obejctives, this argument would go back to the STV ganking spree difficulty. I rolled on PvP server to have pvp. I made the decision that I will accept what ever horror storys and ganking sprees it gives to me, its still pvp server. Unfortunately for me, that isnt reality as world pvp isnt fun. You cant change the reasons of PvP tag on server name purely because Blizzard havent managed to "fix" the world pvp yet.

PvP in the server name should alert players and create feeling of danger when moving around world. Thats what pvp is about, you are vulnerable to enemy faction at any given time. You are vulnerable to ganking every second you grind motes. If and when (hopefully) blizzard manages to bring life back to world pvp, transfering from PvE to PvP would gain the vanilla wow status.
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#52 JamesVZ

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:00 PM

The problem here is that you assume world pvp being dead and irrelevant. But I think its still in blizzards todo-book that world pvp gains its meaning.


This is kind of a lose/lose situation. To encourage world PvP, they add in PvP objective points...all of which are very easily avoided. To not make them avoidable would go directly against their philosophy regarding PvP -- that it should be optional. Or if they do what they have discussed and make certain zones perma-PvP flagged, well, you're no better or worse off on a PvE server.

Encouraging world PvP at this point is a dead horse, the game is far too large to accomodate it, and the bottom line honor gain rate for it is far too slow to promote it. This:

PvP in the server name should alert players and create feeling of danger when moving around world. Thats what pvp is about, you are vulnerable to enemy faction at any given time. You are vulnerable to ganking every second you grind motes.


Will never ever be the case again, despite how much any of us would like it to be. But even if they somehow did manage to pull it off, we're talking about years down the line here, not months, which is plenty of time for the general populace to stomach the idea of PvE to PvP transfers.

#53 Trouble

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:13 PM

The main crux of the issue for the people who on these forums is its impact on raiding. Fully 75% of top raiding guilds are on PvP servers. I don't know how far down this imbalance extends, but it goes through at least the top 200 US guilds. This goes entirely contrary to Blizzard's stated of goal of not punishing players for mistakes made at character creation or early on. You make a decision to role on a PvE server and you instantly cut off 75% of your raiding options. Of course you don't realize this until 6 months later or whatever. It is absolutely stupid that this issue that should have nothing to do with raiding has EVERYTHING to do with the options of someone trying to find a guild.

This needs to be changed. There is no debate. It's a stupid rule that has lived way past it's time. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees, and even harder pressed to find someone with a good reason to disagree.

As a leader of a successful PvE server guild I don't even have a vested interest in seeing this changed. I'm happy in my guild and there's very guilds above mine on the ladder. But still, the idea that people are limited because of this dumb rule annoys the hell out of me.

#54 GSH

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:20 PM

If the issue is primarily limited to high-end raiding guilds, I don't understand why rerolling a new character is not an acceptable option. We're the hardcore, most of us have levelled up multiple characters, and with the changes in 2.3, levelling is going to become even easier.

I think that ensuring that all level 70s on a PvP server have levelled as PvP is a reasonable goal. That's the price you pay for being top dog. The gankee becomes the ganker, and the circle of life continues.

(For the record, my first character was on Burning Blade, a PvP server. I've been corpse-camped, ganked in Sun Rock Village, etc. I switched to PvE when I was level 50 and the honor system first came out. That was a most un-fun time as I was worth honor to the 60s.)

#55 Whiteknight

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:39 PM

You make a decision to role on a PvE server and you instantly cut off 75% of your raiding options. Of course you don't realize this until 6 months later or whatever. It is absolutely stupid that this issue that should have nothing to do with raiding has EVERYTHING to do with the options of someone trying to find a guild.


It's more like you cut off 90% of your potential raiding options seeing as one cannot transfer faction either. Particularly if you rolled horde pve.

I agree entirely with what you and others here are saying: getting ganked in STV or while doing dailies is a miniscule part of the game at this point - pvp *is* arenas now. For better or worse. Compared to the proportion of your game time spent raiding, or doing dungeons with your friends or organized pvp (arena/bgs) where server-type is meaningless --- getting hit outside karazhan is really irrelevant.

Keeping the transfer restriction to preserve a game element that represents 0.01% of your time at the cost of significantly reducing your options for raid recruiting/guild hunting is definitely counterproductive at this point. Unless getting ganked in TM once on the way to 70 is such an amazingly good experience that it makes up for the 200days /played at max level not able to find an appropriate match for a guild because your faction/server combination is simply too sparse.

#56 Nezralix

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:40 PM

If the issue is primarily limited to high-end raiding guilds, I don't understand why rerolling a new character is not an acceptable option. We're the hardcore, most of us have levelled up multiple characters, and with the changes in 2.3, levelling is going to become even easier.


Nobody is so hardcore that spending 200 hours leveling--followed by another several hundred gearing up in 5-mans and then a stepping-stone guild--is no big deal.

#57 Kalman

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:41 PM

If the issue is primarily limited to high-end raiding guilds, I don't understand why rerolling a new character is not an acceptable option. We're the hardcore, most of us have levelled up multiple characters, and with the changes in 2.3, levelling is going to become even easier.


BT/MH flagging pretty much eliminates rerolling as a real option.

Nobody in a raiding guild cares if you've been ganked. Sorry. They care if you have your vials.
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#58 Scheme

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:46 PM

If the issue is primarily limited to high-end raiding guilds, I don't understand why rerolling a new character is not an acceptable option. We're the hardcore, most of us have levelled up multiple characters, and with the changes in 2.3, levelling is going to become even easier.

For some reason I think that some people have what's called a "main" that they spend most of their time on, with all kinds of "gear" and "rep" and things like that, that can take months or even years to obtain. Completely abandoning such a character and all its associated goodies that one has spent so much time and effort on is a very painful prospect, especially when faced with starting completely over.

When you reroll from PvE->PvP with the intention of making your PvP character your main, you are abandoning the time and effort you've spent on your original character. You can't use your PvE character for anything useful anymore at all; you can't give your new character money, or stockpiled gear or tradeskill items, nothing. You can't guild your PvE character with your new PvP character and play it as an alt during downtime and still keep up with local happenings. Nothing. Your PvE character is effectively gone for all intents and purposes. Now, for people with comparatively little time invested in any one character (altaholics, chronic rerollers, etc) this isn't a big deal, and I'll bet good money that the vast majority of PvE->PvP transfer objectors belong in those categories. But for people with years of investment in their primary PvE character, rerolling on a completely new server carries such a penalty that it is almost totally unpalatable. The only time I can see a PvE-er rerolling with little or no angst is when their community (guild, mainly) collapses and they have nothing holding them there (since without their community their character is useless anyway).

Now, one could argue that they could just transfer to a new PvE server and join a new guild, and lots of them do, but you have to remember that the raiding scene on PvE servers is pathetic, and there is zero guarantee that they'll find their familiar and comfortable niche again. One could argue that there is no guarantee with a PvE->PvP transfer, either, but what one can't argue is that PvE->PvP transfers would expand these peoples' options by more than 100%, and probably closer to 200%, simply by virtue of there being so many more viable raiding guilds on an equal number of PvP servers.

#59 GSH

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:49 PM

BT/MH flagging pretty much eliminates rerolling as a real option.

Nobody in a raiding guild cares if you've been ganked. Sorry. They care if you have your vials.


But if you're keyed, you were in a guild that was good enough to get into T6 content. So why is it so necessary to go to a PvP server?

#60 Benegesserit

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:50 PM

But if you're keyed, you were in a guild that was good enough to get into T6 content. So why is it so necessary to go to a PvP server?


Personal reasons for wanting to change to any server are irrelevant to the topic. The issue is why isn't the door open in the first place? Not a case-by-case as to why someone would want to walk through it.




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