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Raiding as a Tree


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#41 dukes

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 09:42 AM

My only beef is I can suppress the on screen error message, but I still get the audio. Any idea how to change that?


wowace.com -> errormonster , set it to Berserk if you're lazy or actually configure it properly if you aren't (if you set it to berserk it eats every error type including out of range, out of mana, etc). I'm not certain if this removes sounds or not as I play with sounds off, though I remember a guildmate recommending it to someone who was having the same thing as you so I think it does.

#42 giansm

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 06:05 PM

I am a +heal stacking druid, and will gem almost everything for 18 heal over the 9+2mana/5. You can regen so many ways, and can only effectively stack healing with gems and gear. Between food, oil, SP group, and BoWisdom, that a ton of mana. When needed, I chain pot.


I think that if you need an SP group for anything but regrowth spam, you don't have enough regen on your gear. Also regrowth spam should probably be the exception rather than the rule. Unless you are swimming in SPs, they are probably better off supporting mages or other, more needy healing classes.

I believe that due to the +healing socket bonuses you lose by gemming pure red, it should be the last way you trade regen for +healing once you have done everything else and are still okay without a SP. If this is the case for you (and it may be the case for a lot of people post-2.3) then go ahead.

#43 even_tide

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 09:45 PM

I figure this is as good a place to post this as any. I spent the last few days putting together a Tree druid spell rotation spreadsheet. I would first like to apologize for the bad layout, this is my first ever attempt at throwing together a spreadsheet, so please bear (or tree) -lol i made a funny- with me. The spreadsheet can be found on filefront here. I am an excel novice so i will apologize in advance for any problems you encounter.

A couple notes, the command buttons on the far right control most every single raid buff situation I could think of; spread sheet reset, basic raid buffs (kings, BoW, imp DS, ect) full raid buffs (basic buffs +battle/guardian elixir, cooking, and oils) and the shaman button.

I consider this sheet only in beta, because there are a few known bugs, and a few other sections I am not sure I got the correct information. Please double check the Outputs to make sure it is consistent with what your hots do in game. I had to do some sloppy testing on the PTR to guestimate the spell coefficients, because when i tried the wowwiki ones, they were off big time so i tried to find them on my own.

One important notice, when you decide to change the spell rotation, make S*U*R*E the values in both the Big Six section, and the Rotation Input section are the same. The Big Six section is there so you can visualize your rotation, and the inputs section is there for ease of computing. A very common error is to change the Big Six section and leave the inputs alone and vice versa. The mana costs must also be correct. Except for the regrowth idol please enter the base mana cost of the spell, not the tree cost. If you use the regrowth idol, the mana cost should update on its own /crosses fingers.

This sheet doesnt contain any fancy gear/gem/enchants selection, and only a limited number of gear changes are taken into account. This sheet just exists at the moment to figure a spell rotation, and calculate how much healing it does, and how long you can cast it.

KNOWN BUGS
The "Outside regen" section is buggy, if you get that error on the sheet, ignore it as well as the command buttons relating to it. You can play around with it, and if you know your excel/theorycrafting, you can try to fix it, but the bugs will be pretty apparent.

The deal with that section is there was no way for me to know how many pots/procs/innervates, ect you were to recieve unless I already knew how long you were going to cast. Since this outside regen depends on how long you will cast, I had a problem. Outside regen meant more procs/pots, more procs/pots meant more casting time, more casting time meant more pots/procs and the circle continues.

In addition, the way the sheet handles innervate is wrong. For simplicity's sake, I just took the total OFSR mp5 regen and multiplied it by 16 (4 mp5 ticks of 4x regen) which is most assuredly not how innervate works, but I felt rushed because I had already spent a lot of time on it and needed to get it out.

If you have any suggestions, comments, corrections, or bug fixes please, please o please post them here, PM me on this forum, or contact me in game.

#44 Machia

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 05:15 PM

Are there any easy ways to switch out your innervate weapon and switch back in your old weapons? Currently I use an /equip WEAPON /cast Innervate macro which works but then I would need to use another macro to reequip my regular weaponry (MH/OH). As far as suggestions to this thread go, I would add to the list as it is a much better choice for shorter fights or for instances where you may be in a shadow priest group or have the benefit of additional MP5 enhancements (Jaina Proudmore), etc. Also is it possible to get a "must have" mod section that briefly goes over the top used mods by tree druids and how to use them effectively.

#45 PSGarak

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 07:16 PM

You can probably use a /castsequence macro, since "casting" the name of an equippable item in your bags attempts to equip it.
/castsequence [alt] MH, OH; [ctrl] SPTWEAP; SPTWEAP, Innervate, MH, OH
This would let you hold down alt or control keys to force specific weapons, if you happen to mash the macro too many times and get caught with the wrong weapons, although spam-mashing should leave you with your spirit-stick (cycles through the sequence once, then equips SPTWEAP and stops because innervate is on cooldown).
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#46 giansm

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 07:59 PM

It doesn't really matter whether you're in a shadow priest group or not, all that matters is how much more mana you have with the flask than without. The distilled wisdom flask grants 1072 mana with Blessing of Kings, and the mighty restoration flask grants mana equal to: time (in seconds) * 5. This means that it beats the distilled wisdom flask in 3m34s. Even on a short fight where you are receiving a mana tide, distilled wisdom is only better until the 4m25s mark. However even with a mana tide, the difference is not large enough to make up the mana for a single lifebloom past 3m50s. I didn't list the wisdom flask because at least for our guild almost everything takes longer than this.

I think CasterWeaponSwapper is supposed to be able to do an Innervate swap, but I don't use that mod so I don't know for sure. The main reason I didn't put in a mod section is because a lot of it is preference-based (what raid frames, what boss mod) but I can put a list of popular ones. How does this sound: raid frames (Grid/sRaid/Pitbull/xperl), unit frames (Pitbull/xperl), boss mods (DBM/BW), and hot tracker (chronometer, others?).

By the way, does anyone know of a better hot tracker than chronometer? The thing I don't like about it is that it re-orders the bars based on time spent, and shows too many bars. I would prefer a mod that always kept the bars in the same order and only showed bars for lifebloom on the targets you are trying to roll it on (maybe only show a bar if the lifebloom has 2+ stacks, or show a bar for people on a pre-determined list).

#47 Benhoof

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 08:27 AM

I use HotCandy.

But it really is not that different than Chronometer.

#48 Nahiag

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 09:03 AM

Can anyone point me to a Tree aura VS other party auras (for the tank that is) calculation.

example, tree aura vs devotion aura. I asume the calc as been done but I haven't seen it :)

awesome guide, nice to read even though I don't play a druid myself

#49 Ruby Moon

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 03:49 PM

I use HotCandy.

But it really is not that different than Chronometer.


HotCandy is better, since Chronometer bugs a lot with it's bars and when mobs get killed, making you lose cd bars in mid-trash.

#50 giansm

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 04:19 PM

Can anyone point me to a Tree aura VS other party auras (for the tank that is) calculation.

example, tree aura vs devotion aura. I asume the calc as been done but I haven't seen it :)


Look on Druid - Tree Concerns and Issues - Page 6. Dukes calculates that on a warrior with 18000 armor, the best devotion aura (improved, with tier 5 set bonus) provides 5.4% damage reduction. Later on Vernichter confirms this number and calculates that a standard improved devotion (without set bonus) provides 3.9% damage reduction. This is straight mitigation, and so the tank never takes this damage.

For the tree aura: say you have 600 spirit, this means your aura adds +150 healing. Since rolling lifebloom's coefficient is 29.42% this adds 44 to the tick value. Assuming we are trying to prevent a tank spike death that happens in 2 seconds, and assuming we have two druids on the tank, these lifeblooms will tick for a total of 44 * 2 druids * 2 ticks = 176. Say there's also a couple of paladins landing a FoL (I'm going to say they're not landing HLs, since if they are then the tank is probably not going to die). I'm not sure what the coefficient is with a holy spec but let's say it's 50%. If they both land the tree aura contributes 150 healing. Thus the tree aura contributed 326 healing. If the tank has 19k hp and is in danger of losing all of this, devotion will protect him from 771 damage even if he receives no heals. This number is more than twice as much, and damage mitigation is inherently "safer" than healing (since the damage never happens), so devotion blows away tree aura for the MT.

#51 Kamileon

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:01 AM

I use DotTimer for all my timer needs. I have an spriest and affliction lock also, so having one mod that would do all timed spells was a plus for me. Prior to that, I used HotCandy and was happy with it as well.

DotTimer is apparently really spammy on mod comm channels, so Antiarc (of Omen fame) tells anyone he sees using it to do /comm and uncheck everything. This won't affect your personal use of the mod in any way, and stop filling up you mod comm so that other mods that need it can communicate properly.

DotTimer doesn't reorder casts by default, but that is also configurable.

#52 Benhoof

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 09:54 AM

...This number is more than twice as much, and damage mitigation is inherently "safer" than healing (since the damage never happens), so devotion blows away tree aura for the MT.


Honestly said, comparing auras of different classes is rather pointless.

First, because you can have both auras on the tank at the same time. Second, because the usability of an aura is highly dependent on the situation.

For example, on encouners like Hydross Devotion Aura is completly useless. So ToL beats Devotion for this fight.

#53 Nahiag

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 01:56 PM

Honestly said, comparing auras of different classes is rather pointless.


No it is not, First of all, you might not get all auras.

As pointed out, if you've got 1 tank, and in the example warrior.
you can have 4 other players with auras.
you can get warlock/shaman/paladin/tree
But, you can also get warlock/paladin/2xtree

Also, if you've got 2 tanks in the group, let's say they're both warriors.
then you can only pick 3.

Don't forget that things change if you go with a paladin or druid tank. Example, a druid might not get anything at all out of the extra armor and he will still need a warrior in the group for hp shout.


Just to me, it doesn't make any sence to have a shaman in the tank group, first of all, it's a waste of heroism (if you can't temp swap him that is). but also an imp stoneskin totem reduce an attack by 52 damage pre mitigation. 18000 armor would otherwice reduce that by 63% = 33 less damage per hit.

I'm not sure what a raid boss hits for post mitigation but it's well 4-6k, 33/4000 = 0,825% damage reduction.


Further more, the auras works differently, +hp will only make it easier for the healers to heal and will prevent the person from dying by spike damage.

Damage mitigation will reduce the damage and will thereby be one of the best ways, as you won't need to heal up the reduced damage, will lower the chance that the tank dies by spike damage. The tank will require less heals.

Tree aura will make heals on the tank be more effective. This will also lower the chance that the tank dies from spike damage (as the tank should have more HP due to the heals he just got). May cause overheal and thereby loss of effectivity.

I dubt this is anything new, I just miss an analysis of how they work, so you just don't go with the "same old, same old" and don't think about, example, that a bear might not get anything from devo, (not sure about that but our bear was very close to 75% in ssc/tk gear)

#54 Nahiag

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 01:57 PM

dubble post :S where is that delete post button

#55 Kretschmer

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 02:48 PM

Would this be a proper place to discuss DS healkins? I doubt there's enough of us to justify our own thread.

I've been pleasantly surprised by healkin spec in raids. I've only been able to bring mine on T5 raids twice, but Morogrim saw me towards the top of the pack and I was our strongest consistent FLK healer.

One thing that I find vexing is situations where there isn't a tank taking oodles of damage. For example, my main healing assignment was FLK's hunter guardian last night. Once he went down, I moved over to the healer guardian to assist on raid healing. And felt like a deer in headlights. HT is too slow to react to random damage, so I was just popping lifeblooms and rejuvs all over the place. It was sustainable (massive regen and an alchemist's stone) but just felt supremely inefficient. What do you trees do when you raid heal? Do you have any strategies/tips?

For reference, Wow Web Stats is the WWS. Please do not criticize the raid's performance; this is just to troubleshoot personal mistakes/issues.


Edit: One tradeoff that I've made with this talent build is subtlety vs nature's focus. I went the subtlety route to lessen aggro-deaths in heroic and some raid fights, but the lack of pushback interruption is a liability in rare situations (heroic fights with periodic ranged AoE; Illhoof). Looking ahead at T5 content, is pushback interruption something I should be worried about?

#56 Lear

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 03:25 PM

I've found Evocation2 to be really handy for swapping in spirit gear for innervates. It does auto-swap back at the end of innervates which could potentially cause GCD issues, but for me at least forgetting to swap out of my spirit gear was a bigger problem. :P

#57 giansm

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 04:21 PM

Well the main reason I was comparing devotion and tree aura was because someone asked. Also as Nahiag points out, if you have two tanks that you want to receive good buffs the group can be somewhat tight since only three auras will fit. It helps to know which auras are best to put in.

About shamans in the MT group: they are mostly for Windfury and Strength of Earth, in order to buff threat generation. They can be swapped out for heroism (there should be someone you can give assist that can handle this) or if a lot of people are threat-capped the heroism can go to the tank.

#58 Sorail

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 05:06 PM

I've been pleasantly surprised by healkin spec in raids. I've only been able to bring mine on T5 raids twice, but Morogrim saw me towards the top of the pack and I was our strongest consistent FLK healer.


You should try tree healing for 1-2 raids to see the difference. IF you are primary healer and not only helping at healer shortage of course.

One thing that I find vexing is situations where there isn't a tank taking oodles of damage. For example, my main healing assignment was FLK's hunter guardian last night. Once he went down, I moved over to the healer guardian to assist on raid healing. And felt like a deer in headlights. HT is too slow to react to random damage, so I was just popping lifeblooms and rejuvs all over the place. It was sustainable (massive regen and an alchemist's stone) but just felt supremely inefficient. What do you trees do when you raid heal? Do you have any strategies/tips?


I'd imagine it's rare for a tree to exclusively raid heal, can't remember when I did that last time. But in a one-two tank situation there are many gcd-s to be spared for raidhealing. I use mainly LB for that, single stack and letting it bloom. Depends on the encounter of course if I know that the incoming damage is enough to kill a player, I use the rejuv+swiftmend or NS+regrowth combo. Highly situational. But the main tool is LB. :)

Edit: One tradeoff that I've made with this talent build is subtlety vs nature's focus. I went the subtlety route to lessen aggro-deaths in heroic and some raid fights, but the lack of pushback interruption is a liability in rare situations (heroic fights with periodic ranged AoE; Illhoof). Looking ahead at T5 content, is pushback interruption something I should be worried about?


No. Your main problem will be moving, not interrupts. Your mobility is highly gimped with such a long casttime main spell. But with your healing output you shouldn't have problems with aggro either, so it's just personal taste what you pick.

#59 nalinal

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 05:22 PM

My guild has me primarily healing raid heals in 25 mans. I am a ToL healer. I was reading another thread today and was wondering if my guild having me in a position where I'm assigned purely to raid heals is a waste of my healing? When I apply HoTs to a raid target a pally usually ends up healing over them anyway, so they just fizzle out and I waste my mana. Should I tell my Guild Leader that she should have me rolling LBs on the tanks?

I've been contemplating this for a while and I need some help.

#60 Edghar

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 05:26 PM

My guild has me primarily healing raid heals in 25 mans. I am a ToL healer. I was reading another thread today and was wondering if my guild having me in a position where I'm assigned purely to raid heals is a waste of my healing? When I apply HoTs to a raid target a pally usually ends up healing over them anyway, so the just fizzle out and I waste my mana. Should I tell my Guild Leader that she should have me rolling LBs on the tanks?

I've been contemplating this for a while and I need some help.


You can do both. Typically in any fight where there are less than 4 tanks, I use my spare GCDs to raid heal. There's really no reason not to, unless you have mana concerns.

I'd suggest coordinating with other healers in your raid group with mods to assist in raid healing efficiency. We all use Grid with the incoming heals indicator as well as indicators for various HoTs. It's not perfect, but you'll see a considerable improvement if you can get them on board.




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