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#1521 Playered

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 03:27 AM

This works well in the current situation where mana is not an issue, but will probably not be an issue in most encounters at 80 due to wasting so much mana. Also, i assume you didnt count the final ticks for lifebloom, as the final heal alone heals for more than your listed value atleast for me.


Your Lifebloom bloom heals for nearly 4000 at level 70? I am impressed by your level of gear then.
I did not include crit on them however so it should err slightly higher but generally bloom healed for around 1.8k if I recall correctly when I did that.

The mana thing is irrelevant at 80 due to costs being base mana related, if 2 people need healing it is cheaper, faster and less GCD consuming to use WG than to use 2 of any other spell - and you get 3 other applications bonus too (normally).


Smart healing WG is great if you are the only one raid healing, having more than us doing it and the people who get WG will get the CH or CoH ticks as well though which is the bad part.


The difference between nerfing WG previously was the fact it was nerfing only WG and nothing else, doing similar nerfs to all forms of popular AoE healing should be less of an issue (although not from a WoW forum whine point).

#1522 Unseen

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 01:03 PM

Your Lifebloom bloom heals for nearly 4000 at level 70? I am impressed by your level of gear then.
I did not include crit on them however so it should err slightly higher but generally bloom healed for around 1.8k if I recall correctly when I did that.

My apologies, misread your post.

While i do agree on WG being too mana efficient at the moment, it needs to be more cost effective than CoH and CH, or else it will be strictly inferior due to being a hot.

It's a tough spot blizzard is in at the moment, trying to balance out different healing classes to be able to perform the same role. Chain heal has been the defining ability of resto shamans trough all of TBC, and nerfing it too hard leaves shamans with very little. At the same time, CoH and WG need to be able to compete so that shaman stacking won't be necessary. In the end, i feel it can be tuned from either spell or encounter balance, assuming the spells are in relative balance to each other.

I think that a good balancing point for the aoe heals would be them being worth using if they hit atleast 3 targets that need healing. Currently for 2 targets (with Playereds values) we are looking at:
WG: 5700healing for 436mana or 13,07 HPM
RJ: 9200healing for 604mana or 15,23 HPM
LB: 7800healing for 528mana or 14,77 HPM

Now, the current difference is indeed very small, but it still favours lb and rj in more ways than 1; they heal for more on each target and rj has the additional advantage of being swiftmendable if needed. At 3 targets this obviously tips in WG:s favour as the other spells' stay at the same HPM while WG gains 50% more mana efficiency.

WG currently feels very strong; in our last sunwell raid i did 59% of my healing with WG on average over the 3 first bosses. But i'd argue that it's mostly a question of encounter design making aoe heals the answer to everything but tank healing, and not the heals themselves.

#1523 Guest_Amijay3_*

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 12:22 AM

I suspect that as with TBC, mana will not suffice as a deterrent. Gear will improve to the point where mana becomes a non-issue. This is unless Blizzard, for each higher raid tier of gear, puts more ilvl budget into haste and raw spellpower. Even then, raiders can still prioritize for regen off-pieces, get regen trinkets, and gem into spi/mp5/int.

As for nerfing WG, the last time Blizzard weakened the throughput there was a massive uproar in beta.


Which is why i firmly believe they waited until beta was down to announce this. It may sound very consiracy theory, but they opened themselves up to that. Seriously, something this huge should have been thrown around in beta, not packaged as set in stone 8 days before release. Bad Form IMHO.

As for WG let us look what it takes to even get there:

GoTM - Already bad. It is supporting a 3 second ticking Hot, a very nerfed LB which I maintain is only decent if you are rolling it on 2 tanks, and WG. If WG is off the list this talent is a big waste of points.

Replenish - Tested on beta and still testing on live. IMHO this "talent" should have just become an addition to the spell itself and then replace that talent space with a talent that lessens the time between ticks of Rejuv. As it stands now, so bad. So So So So bad.

Living Seed - When I had it, it accounted for about 1.6% of my healing. Too much RNG / luck for this talent to be truly useful. IF you get a Crit, IF you land a nice effective heal, IF it isn't overheal. I like things I can depend on, this can't be depended on.

Now you get to choose between these 3 stunningly terrible talents to reach WG as it is now. I can bite my tongue and bear it to get to WG now. I can't see myself being able to bear it if there is a CD on WG.

If i were better at math I would start peering into Dreamstate. As it stands now i will have to trial and error my way until they come to their senses.

#1524 Fallenangel

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 09:50 AM

GotEM gives the equivalent of ~80 haste rating per point at level 70, on 3 of our 4 main healing spells, as well as the rejuv+mend combo. Also, maintaining a 1k hps hot is worth it on 1 or 3 tanks as well.
Replenish is a tad weak, yes. Personally I don't think I'll think it at 80, opting for naturalist instead.
Living seed is weak because regrowth is weak, since it's missing its glyph and a key talent, NG. It is also overshadowed by WG. Working off effective healing is fine, if regrowth has overhealed then your target doesn't need a damage shield and had just gained a 27-sec hot. Other healing classes have similar mechanics.

Overall deep resto and especially GotEM are throughput-boosting talents. Yes, that may not be what you need at entry-level raids, where gear is bad and longetivity is more important. But as raids progress, throughput and speed become critical as illustrated in SWP, and I think the resto tree stands up to the challange in that area.

#1525 Anaram

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 05:50 PM

Personally I'm quite content with replenishment as a talent.

Just doing some simple calculations: if rogues have about 33%:67% yellow to white damage ratio then and a full length rejuvenation (18 sec) restores on average 9 energy which is about equal to what a rogue would gain perhaps 0.75 seconds. 33% * 0.75 would mean that one cast of rejuvenation on rogue adds damage approximately equal to what they do in 0.25 seconds or a 25% increase for 1 second. If you were to cast a single rejuvenation on a rogue once per 25 seconds then this talent would be in the correct "value" range of a typical DPS talent (1% boost per talent point).

Above numbers can be quite much incorrect since I've not very carefully followed how rogue yellow to white has developed and I don't really know at what ratio extra energy would convert to damage. Modeling mana users would also be quite a bit more complicated and rage as well as runic power pose their own problems. I think it does give some decent directions, however. If you were to look at replenishment from raid mana point of view then you would probably notice that rejuvenation is spectacularly cheap for the amount of mana it actually consumes when cast on mana users.

I'm inclined to argue that insofar as you do actually use rejuvenation, the replenishment talent can be quite handy even if the effect isn't easy to notice. If you don't use rejuvenation then obviously the talent doesn't have much merit.

#1526 apsod

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 07:29 PM

Personally I'm quite content with replenishment as a talent.

Just doing some simple calculations: if rogues have about 33%:67% yellow to white damage ratio then and a full length rejuvenation (18 sec) restores on average 9 energy which is about equal to what a rogue would gain perhaps 0.75 seconds. 33% * 0.75 would mean that one cast of rejuvenation on rogue adds damage approximately equal to what they do in 0.25 seconds or a 25% increase for 1 second. If you were to cast a single rejuvenation on a rogue once per 25 seconds then this talent would be in the correct "value" range of a typical DPS talent (1% boost per talent point).


How did you get 9 energy exactly?
Talent desc:
Procs 15% per tick for 8 Energy.
Rejuv should have 6 ticks (18 secs / 3secs/tick)
6 * 15 = 90% * 8 = 6.4 energy / 18 secs

Now, take an encounter that lasts 5mins (300 secs). Assuming you keep rogueX always hotted with rejuv and never miss a beat, he would get:
300secs / 18secs = 16.6 rejuvs casted on him.
16.6 rejuvs * 6.4 energy/rejuv = 105.94 energy
That's quite a bit generous (16.6 should be 16 really and there is no way you'd maintain it 100% of the time on that one rogue unless it was your specific task, so let's say for now 16 * 6.4 = 99 energy over a 5mins encounter).

Now, I actually don't know anything about rogues really, not even anything about ferals, but I'm assuming this means ~2.5 'fully energised' abilities they could cast (assuming a 40energy cost, but really, I have no idea what rogues use) over 5mins.

Looking at our top rogue on our last MS kill (something that's pretty straightforward bashing, hence no energy should be 'wasted' sitting there unused), he got 35 moves out (28 sinister strike, 2 eviscerate, 5 killing spree) over a 2min kill. I'm assuming those all use energy, but who knows.

Simple interpolation gives us 35moves * 5min/2min = 87.5 (87) moves. Let's say full rejuv nets him the energy for 3 more moves.
From that simple MS kill, he's getting ~33% of his dps from energy moves and the rest from 'other things' (mainly 'swings').

3moves/87moves * 33%dps = 1.122% potential increase in dps

Now, most of this is based on 1 parse and actual numbers could wildly vary.
Anyways, I'm assuming 0.8% is probably the best you'd get on 1 rogue out of rejuv (assuming you can't keep it up 100% of the time), but that is really only a big approximation ^^

#1527 Anaram

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 08:26 PM

My bad on the energy calculations, I somehow convinced myself that it was 10 energy instead of 8 energy per proc.

This said, you also messed up on the 90% * 8 = 6.4 energy / 18 secs part since actually 90% * 8 = 7.2 energy.

Anyway if we just use the 1% as a number to show much someone's DPS increases when rejuvenation is up then maintaining on average 3 rejuvenations would give DPS value of about 1% per talent point, give or take as you see fit. I cast rejuvenations much more than once per 6 seconds myself so I think this talent is quite worth it for me. It doesn't do much when cast on hunters, retadins or melee shamans (or pets) of course but on average I don't think these are the worst talent points I'm picking up either.

#1528 Fallenangel

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 08:01 AM

Whether rejuv boosts a rogue's dps by 1% or 2% isn't really the point. A healer's job in a raid isn't to give some extremely minor dps boost, or shamans would be shocking on CD. Assuming a base of 14 points in balance and maxed-out Living seed and GoteM, it's a choice between having a workable HT via Naturalist and Emp touch or replenish. Personally I prefer boosting my main role in a raid and seeing as replenish is so narrow, I'm going to skip it.

#1529 Nitz

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 08:33 AM

The good thing about Replenish is that it is all about play style. I will take it because I heavily use Rejuvenation and will never ever use Healing Touch past the NS+HT macro at 80. Different people make different choices and I see it as a good thing, even if Replenish is not a oh-my-god-I-want-it talent.

#1530 Anaram

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 10:06 AM

Whether rejuv boosts a rogue's dps by 1% or 2% isn't really the point. A healer's job in a raid isn't to give some extremely minor dps boost, or shamans would be shocking on CD. Assuming a base of 14 points in balance and maxed-out Living seed and GoteM, it's a choice between having a workable HT via Naturalist and Emp touch or replenish. Personally I prefer boosting my main role in a raid and seeing as replenish is so narrow, I'm going to skip it.


Raid roles are really just a simplification. Some dps classes provide minor healing benefits (shadow priests, retadins) while some healing classes provide minor dps benefits (holy palas using judgements and potentially holy priests using SoL smites).

#1531 Draugdae

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 08:01 PM

Whether rejuv boosts a rogue's dps by 1% or 2% isn't really the point. A healer's job in a raid isn't to give some extremely minor dps boost, or shamans would be shocking on CD. Assuming a base of 14 points in balance and maxed-out Living seed and GoteM, it's a choice between having a workable HT via Naturalist and Emp touch or replenish. Personally I prefer boosting my main role in a raid and seeing as replenish is so narrow, I'm going to skip it.


The element of this talent that seems to be overlooked is that it doesn't remove the healing component of rejuvenation. If Rejuvenation is just increasing a rogue's dps by 1%, then it is probably a waste of ~5% of your actions during a fight (1 sec GCD/18 second duration). However it's also providing some fairly solid healing during that time as well. In any fight that features damage on rogues or other resource limited classes, Rejuvenation allows you to both provide the necessary healing *and* facilitate that class in performing their job.

#1532 GTtheBard

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 08:42 PM

Unless there's something I'm missing, it has a chance to proc off each tick - if a target is at full health, then it shouldn't give the Replenish effect. Also, it only has a 15% chance to proc. You could see a bunch of procs or no procs at all.

If the raid is taking damage, it's likely that we'll be using Wild Growth. If a single target is taking damage, they'd best be a tank (in which case the Rage and Energy components are useless, though the 1% mana could be useful on a Pally/Mage/Lock tank...maybe...when was the last time you saw a tank Rage starved?). If they aren't a tank and taking spike damage, then we're probably going to NS+Swiftmend them rather then let Rejuv run its course.

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding something, I just can't see this talent being useful in the slightest.

#1533 uliko

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 08:53 PM

Replenish procs even if you're at full health.

#1534 GTtheBard

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:09 PM

Oh...that's interesting. And it's meant to be like that? That certainly makes it more useful, but I'm not totally sold on it. At better gear levels though, it might become a viable "mana dump."

#1535 b14d3

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 12:40 AM

In all honesty, I think that quite literally every little bit helps. Any amount of rage that you're giving the tank while healing them is an amazing boon. Mana/Runic Power/Energy given while casting a healing spell that you cast normally anyway?

I really don't understand where the debate is. I believe it is completely worth the three talent points.

#1536 Currylaksa

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 01:43 AM

The math for replenish simply does not justify the talent point investment and the extra whack-a-mole.

That is unless you are mindful of refreshing rejuvenations on as many targets as possible throughout every encounter, and have the luxury to rejuv topped-out targets.
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#1537 Anaram

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 08:40 AM

The math for replenish simply does not justify the talent point investment and the extra whack-a-mole.


What math are you basing this statement on? What extra whack-a-mole are you referring to?




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