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#21 Guest_Aldric_*

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 12:45 AM

It would be nice to see a section on base damage ranges (or average) of the various spells at level 70 for theorycrafting reference purposes.

#22 Muphrid

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 12:51 AM

It would be nice to see a section on base damage ranges (or average) of the various spells at level 70 for theorycrafting reference purposes.


For the sake of theorycraft, I've forked over the gold to clear my talents. I shall have a table of ranges and means shortly.

#23 Guest_Alvira_*

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 12:56 AM

Arcane rotation isn't outdated. >_< Its the only way to play arcane now in patch 2.3 with AM spam dead. And it remains very competitive. In fact, that style of play gets a new meta gem and increased mana from arcane meditation so it can spam arcane blast more often. So, it was buffed as well, though not on the same level as fire or forst was buffed obviously.

But for progressing, it is competitive once you get two piece T5. and remains so until you reach probably BT and start getting four piece set bonus or other T6.

#24 galzohar

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 01:04 AM

Is it higher dps to 2 x fball, 1 x imp fire blast [1/3], or is it only a positioning / finishing spell now, given the increases to fireball? Obviously, any spell haste that you have will make fireball spam a more convincing rotation.

Ignoring mana cost, firebalst depends on your spell damage. You can easily see (or calculate if you want to be sure about average values) if youre fireblast is more than 1/2 a fireball and go by that. Calculating the DPM loss is more difficult and requires a speradsheet level of work, but I can guarantee you it's high and significant at any gear level.
In many fights the DPS increase probably isn't worth the positioning requirement, especially with higher gear levels.

#25 Muphrid

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 01:04 AM

Base ranges and means:

Spell                   Min     Max     Mean    DoT

Arcane Explosion 8      377     407     392
Arcane Missiles 10      264     265   264.5
Blast Wave 8            616     724     670
Blizzard 7             1472    1472    1472
Cone of Cold 6          418     457   437.5
Conjure Mana Agate      375     425     400
Conjure Mana Citrin     775     925     850
Conjure Mana Emeral    1136    1364    1250
Conjure Mana Jade       550     650     600
Conjure Mana Ruby      1000    1200    1100
Dragon's Breath 4       680     790     735
Fire Blast 9            664     786     725
Fire Ward 6            1125    1125    1125
Fireball 13             649     821     735      84
Flamestrike 7           480     585   532.5     424
Frost Nova 5            100     113   106.5
Frost Ward 6           1125    1125    1125
Frostbolt 13            600     647   623.5
Ice Barrier 6          1075    1075    1075
Ice Lance 1             173     200   186.5
Mana Shield 7           715     715     715
Pyroblast 10            939    1191    1065     356
Scorch 9                305     361     333


#26 frmorrison

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 01:21 AM

There is still one Arcane Mage and due to getting 13% curse of shadows (the fire Mages never get CoE), he is pretty close to them in damage. It sucks that it takes 13% damage buff and wearing 2 Tier 5 to be competitive to Fire, but it works well for him.

Another note is he doesn't have to respec Frost for Illidan, although shatter and iceblock are nice tools to have.


I have parsed quite a few Frost Mages, the EP talent gives 6% hit to all frost spells (although it could be fixed anytime), I think that is worth putting up there until it is fixed, so Frost Mages don't go over 10% hit.

#27 Pintofbrew

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 01:45 AM

Once again I notice the age-old Meta or non-Meta head argument raging.

Granted, T4 & T5 have badly distributed stats. Does nobody ever wear the engineering head? It's pretty darn sweet in terms of item budget allocation.

I know engineers are a minority but I for one am not taking off the goggles (or the CSD) for a long while to come.

#28 Kyuki

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 03:30 AM

I have absolutly no idea why there are some people that give the new meta game less credit than it deserves.

Someone said "It's only a 1-1.5% increase in dmg". This is actually true (dependant), but I dont think the poster knows exactly how big that is.

Let's do some math around the CSD to see exactly how good it is, and why the T5 helm can beat the Cowl from VR when you're hit capped, or will get hit capped with either of them (And seriously, if you can loot the headpiece from Vashj, you should be able to reach closer hitcap values without putting 8 hitgems in a headpiece - Not to mention how easy it is to cap as arcane for example) Let's even look at how it would look in comparision if the last piece for the 4set bonus was the helm.

I'm going to use my own dmg from our last Vashj to kill show just how good it is. Remember CSD scales with crit, so a firemage would probably get a greater value in the right group.

527816 total dmg

251940 LB crit dmg
59279 CL crit dmg

311219 total crit dmg over 610 seconds.
RED dmg = 9071 (1.72%) 14.8 DPS.

So how good is 14.8 DPS exactly?
1 spelldmg is roughly 0.33DPS~
14.8DPS = 44.8~ Spelldmg.

(assuming reaching hit cap with the stats given through the helm, distributing gems and stat items diffrently in other pieces)

Cowl from VR:
73 spelldmg
21 hit rating
39 crit rating

Cowl of Tirisfal:
99.9 spelldmg
40 crit rating
5 hitrating

27~ more spelldmg
1 more crit rating
alot less hitrating

Assuming you somehow get capped through the headpiece, the T5 helm beats the Cowl from VR because CSD is so good.
Let's assume that the head piece was the last piece you swapped to get the 4piece setbonus, then I dont think there is anything to discuss really. With 40%~ crit you can atleast count on a static 50dmg~ gain from the setbonus, and suddenly when you swapped from the cowl to the T4 headpiece you made a 80+dmg upgrade - Just like that! :)

#29 galzohar

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 04:22 AM

To really compare meta gems I would give them a spell damage value based on my gear. % means nothing unless you at least know how much spell damage, crit etc you need for 1%.
In fact I was always remembering how much of X stat I need for 1% and use that value to convert stats, since most effects are easily converted into a +% damage (haste, crit, hit, MSD proc...). CSD can be easily converted into additional crit rating based on your current crit, as well, and you should know how good crit rating is for you.

What should be noted as a sure thing though, helms with meta sockets are obviously total crap with a meta different than MSD/CSD, when compared to anything anywhere near it in terms of progression. Spellstrike beats hands down T4/5 if you're not using MSD/CSD, and still seems to be beating T4 with my gear at least with the spellstrike set bonus included.

#30 Kyuki

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 04:37 AM

Doesnt matter what value you want to give it. If you say it's X% DPS that's enough. When I translated it to +dmg I merely did it to show how good it is, and it is easy to convert DPS to dmg not considering what you are using so..

Spellstrike is indeed better than T4. It's when you're closing in on T5 4 pieces it gets interesting to replace it.

#31 Copernicus

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 06:52 AM

The comparison is between the +X% that the CSD gives (which is a static number equal to 0.03 * the crit percentage) vs the Engineer/Spellstrike/Hexing's crit/hit rating that is given.

gives over 3% from hit and crit ratings (assuming two +8 hit gems) vs the . It's actually really simple to see if you plug in the items to a spreadsheet.

#32 Sancus

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 07:05 AM

which is a static number equal to 0.03 * the crit percentage


CSD does not give 3% increased damage on crits, It uses the old RED mechanics - this means it gives 6.3% to fire, for example.(It increases your 150% crit multiplier to 154.5%, which is then multiplied by 1.4 by Ignite) - for Frost, it's a 9% increase due to Ice Shards.

If CSD was just a flat 3%, no one would use it cause it would suck.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

#33 Copernicus

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 07:28 AM

CSD does not give 3% increased damage on crits, It uses the old RED mechanics - this means it gives 6.3% to fire, for example.(It increases your 150% crit multiplier to 154.5%, which is then multiplied by 1.4 by Ignite) - for Frost, it's a 9% increase due to Ice Shards.

If CSD was just a flat 3%, no one would use it cause it would suck.

With a 100% crit rate, my damage would go up exactly 3% with a CSD.

Assuming my Fireballs hit for 100 damage, a critical hit would be for 210 damage. A critical hit with a CSD would be for 216.3 damage, a 6.3% increase on my regular hit but only a 3% increase from my actual critical hit.

I do keep forgetting that CSD gives 12 crit rating, but a Cowl of the Grand Engineer is still slightly better than the Tier 5 helm just based on the hit rating (worth 2.5% or so of a bonus). And realistically, the main thing to look at is how useless spirit is for a mage now- the 24 spirit on the Tier 5 helm is hurting it a lot more than the metagem socket.

#34 Sancus

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 07:31 AM

With a 100% crit rate, my damage would go up exactly 3% with a CSD.

Assuming my Fireballs hit for 100 damage, a critical hit would be for 210 damage. A critical hit with a CSD would be for 216.3 damage, a 6.3% increase on my regular hit but only a 3% increase from my actual critical hit.

I do keep forgetting that CSD gives 12 crit rating, but a Cowl of the Grand Engineer is still slightly better than the Tier 5 helm just based on the hit rating (worth 2.5% or so of a bonus). And realistically, the main thing to look at is how useless spirit is for a mage now- the 24 spirit on the Tier 5 helm is hurting it a lot more than the metagem socket.


Yeah, you're right, I misinterpreted, although it seems that it would go up 4.5% if you were frost spec, because Ice Shards multiplies the bonus from CSD.

I guess CSD is only better than the tooltip implies if you have a proper crit multiplier increase talent instead of the odd Ignite mechanic.

but a Cowl of the Grand Engineer is still slightly better than the Tier 5 helm just based on the hit rating (worth 2.5% or so of a bonus).


Honestly, though, it's more and more common to evaluate items ignoring their hit due to how easy it is to hitcap, and if you're Arcane spec(which is what performs best at the T5 gear level, and what the set is designed for) then this isn't a concern.

If you only have access to T5 content for some reason, then I'd say T5 helm with CSD is still significantly better than the Cowl.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

#35 instantkill

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 07:50 AM

I have a question about the weight of stats

spell hit rating (to cap) > spell haste rating > spell damage > spell crit rating > spell penetration


Is there any background or additional info available on why spellhaste>spell damage?
I would assume it is up to a certain extent, any chance you could include some values up to where its not really usefull anymore to increase your haste rating?.

#36 Inoko

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 10:21 AM

I have a question about the weight of stats



Is there any background or additional info available on why spellhaste>spell damage?
I would assume it is up to a certain extent, any chance you could include some values up to where its not really usefull anymore to increase your haste rating?.



Around 900 spell haste rating (unless I failed utterly when I decided to see if I could do it), fireballs become GCD limited. It's not possible to reach that much spell haste rating (passively), so it's always going to give a decent boost. The problem is that spell haste gear has crappy other stats, usually.

I could, of course, be utterly failing at "the math", though.

#37 Ignus

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 10:24 AM

I always thought it went spell hit > spell damage > spell crit >= haste rating

#38 Roywyn

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 12:45 PM

On the topic of meta gems, this is what the sheet tells us with top-end gear:

Fireball spam
Base: 1822 DPS, +1 dmg yields +0.84 DPS
CSD: 1858 DPS => CSD is ~42 dmg
MSD: 1863 DPS => MSD is ~49 dmg

Frostbolt spam with 40% WE uptime
Base: 1711 DPS, +1 dmg yields +0.77 DPS (0.73 on Frostbolt, the remaining 0.04 on WE)
CSD: 1757 DPS => CSD is ~59 dmg
MSD: 1742 DPS => MSD is ~40 dmg

Notice that you'd have to resocket for 1/2 amethysts for MSD/CSD, losing the equivalent of 2-9 spell damage depending on gem level (you lose a lot less on rare gem levels) and possible socket bonuses.

Also, those damage equivalents scale with gear. Not as much as one would think, but they still do.

This should still give a figure for determining the value of headpieces with and without meta gems.


Edit: MSD requires more blue than yellow, CSD requires at least 2 blue gems (announced for the next patch).
So you can't just take "all red" but have to fit in the other gems.

#39 Pintofbrew

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 12:55 PM

I always thought it went spell hit > spell damage > spell crit >= haste rating


You thought wrong. For most specs spell damage and spell haste in fact give almost identical benefit, with haste marginally ahead (1haste~=1.05dmg). This is perfectly reasonable given that it does not improve DPM. Any simulator will demonstrate equivallence including Vontre's Sheet and Lhivera's TC.

Roywyn: Note it has been anounced that CSD req will change from "2 blue" to "at least two blue" some time in the future. Though at T6 level this means nothing (you still have to sub a pair of purples for a pair of +12s) but at lower ilevel it makes for better benefits as many useful items have blue socket req with decent bonuses (eg. Badge gloves, belt of blasting).

(Not aimed at Ignus) Given that we're all capable of at least plugging some stats into a web-page can we all stop re-iterating the age-old "can someone please post how much +dmg is x haste/hit/crit/croissant?" please. It's getting tiring.

#40 Kyuki

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 03:12 PM

With a 100% crit rate, my damage would go up exactly 3% with a CSD.

Assuming my Fireballs hit for 100 damage, a critical hit would be for 210 damage. A critical hit with a CSD would be for 216.3 damage, a 6.3% increase on my regular hit but only a 3% increase from my actual critical hit.

I do keep forgetting that CSD gives 12 crit rating, but a Cowl of the Grand Engineer is still slightly better than the Tier 5 helm just based on the hit rating (worth 2.5% or so of a bonus). And realistically, the main thing to look at is how useless spirit is for a mage now- the 24 spirit on the Tier 5 helm is hurting it a lot more than the metagem socket.


If you're not hitcapped then absolutly the Grand Engineer is better, but it would be unwise to not stack hit somewhere else to cap out hit so you can get the great benefit of something that scales really well and gives you alot more than other items would when it comes down to DPS gain - assuming hit cap.

When evaluating the item vs item, it's not hard to see which one is better indeed, but as I said in my above post with calcs, if you consider getting hit capped with other items the T5 helm will win, even if you dont get the 4set bonus - and if you do it'll win by a pretty huge margin.




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