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Retro weapons - Nightfall


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#1 Zurgat

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 11:52 AM

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Nightfall

Chance on hit: Spell damage taken by target increased by 15% for 5 sec.

I'm not sure, but this still seems to be incredibly powerful.
Our maintank was wondering do any guilds still use this weapon on their offtanks as their personal dps is poor anyway?

Offtank dps is pretty poor to begin with, and if they were to spam hamstring to apply this debuff, the magic damage would be a huge benefit to the raid.
We're currently considering making 2 of these.
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#2 Vhad

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 12:09 PM

I think the problem with that weapon is that it's procrate scales, such as items like HoJ, much like the ratings change prior to TBC. There is a blue quest reward from SMV that does the exact same - or actually I think it was taken out? anyway, when it existed it had a very low procrate too. Very anecdotal I know, but I'm quite sure the information is correct.
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#3 Gogusrl

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 12:14 PM

All our tanks have it, so they use when they don`t have to tank. It`s pretty nice.

#4 Overhead

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 12:23 PM

First I'd like to point out that this will kill the dps of whoever uses it. That said, we're talking about the OT (prot warrior?) so that point isn't quite as valid.

Using an uptime of 17-20% (I'm afraid to use an unverified number off wowhead, but I'm not going to do any testing), this gives an average spell damage increase of 2.55 to 3%. Now lets assume a group setup of: MT, OT, 8 healers, 15 dps. Suppose 8 physical dps, 7 magical dps.

2.75% damage increase (taking the middle of the range) * 7 people means 19.25% of a players damage being done (slightly better if we consider more mana returned). Now consider the lost damage due to a painfully low dps weapon, and the lost dps for using a suboptimal dps cycle (I don't know prot, but I assume shield slam or DW devastate are going to be the dps cycle, neither uses a 2H).

I don't see it being a significant enough improvement. The big pre-BC selling point was larger raids, meaning more people to get the buff.

#5 Yaelle

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 12:28 PM

Well I think it would be nice for raids that have 2 prot warriors going through trash to reach the boss and instead of letting them make meaningless damage on Gorefiend as example or telling them "thank you for your help on the trash but were going to replace you for something useful on this boss" give him that weapon and let him do some support sounds nice.

#6 Overhead

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 12:35 PM

This got me thinking, however, what about

For a prot warrior trying to dps, it's actually the right speed and it's 1H. Since the proc stacks to 3 and has a good procrate, you can do your normal attack cycle, so not lose nearly as much dps. Using values posted in This boss armor thread, Dayve points out that for a standard boss with sunder, recklessness, and faerie fire, armor penetration gives a % damage increase :

For a fully debuffed boss (SA x5, FF, CoR) the increase from ArP is:
100 ArP: 0.79%/0.71%
200 ArP: 1.59%/1.42%
300 ArP: 2.41%/2.15%
400 ArP: 3.24%/2.89%
500 ArP: 4.08%/3.64%

Extrapolating this to the 600 armor this weapon gives, you get 4.8%/4.4%. This is almost double nightfall's benefit. In addition, the applier has better dps, and his other weapon is probably much better dps. In addition, this boosts the tank's threat, which is always good.

Edit: I forgot about
I seem to remember this weapon's proc was different from rivenspike's, and as a result stacked (havn't verified). If that's true, than this combo can be very powerful: -1200 armor.

I feel like I must be missing something, since nobody uses these. Anihilator, MH, way fast, perhaps I can see the argument. Rivenspike however, as a 2.9 speed 1H isn't quite as painful to use.

#7 koaschten

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 12:58 PM

I feel like I must be missing something, since nobody uses these. Anihilator, MH, way fast, perhaps I can see the argument. Rivenspike however, as a 2.9 speed 1H isn't quite as painful to use.


Educated Guess:
1. 38 / 41 dps isn't like ... wow...
2. The stacking debuff could be a self-buff like the one from and only benefitting yourself.


Disclaimer: I never had one of those weapons myself, nor did i ever play a Warrior.
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#8 Overhead

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 01:16 PM

1. 38 / 41 dps isn't like ... wow...
2. The stacking debuff could be a self-buff like the one from and only benefitting yourself.


1. My argument of Rivenspike not being *that* bad is that you could DW it with a 90+ dps weapon, whereas with nightfall you're stuck holding a 2H with 65 dps. This point goes away if you use both axes i listed, but then you're massively debuffing the target. Also I forgot to mention , exact same effect as rivenspike (won't stack), but is OH if that makes your dps feel better.

2. I'm relatively certain it's a debuff, but someone would have to test.

#9 Xerophyte

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 01:55 PM

The DPS spreadsheet now has prot support, so I did some quick inputting of my dps gear and my talents. My Al'ar fist weapons are about 1000 dps - this does assume windfury - and Nightfall is about 450 dps. It's highly unlikely to be worth the trade off in a 25-man if you've got decent prot dps gear.

As for rivenspike & annihilator, I anecdotally recall they rarely actually stacked up their debuffs even at 60. Can't imagine them being worth the effort now if the proc rate has gone down with level.

#10 Overhead

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 02:02 PM

As for rivenspike & annihilator, I anecdotally recall they rarely actually stacked up their debuffs even at 60. Can't imagine them being worth the effort now if the proc rate has gone down with level.


good to know, I figured there had to be a flaw with them somewhere.

#11 Suesse

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 02:06 PM

Well I think it would be nice for raids that have 2 prot warriors going through trash to reach the boss and instead of letting them make meaningless damage on Gorefiend as example or telling them "thank you for your help on the trash but were going to replace you for something useful on this boss" give him that weapon and let him do some support sounds nice.

With the addition of devastate in the 2.0 patch, protection warriors can do meaningful damage on raid bosses. At a BT/MH level, your tanks probably have random T4/T5 level gear that was saved from shards. This should allow them to do 1.2+k dps in a fight like gorefiend. I personally believe it is good for the tanks to be forced to dps in situations like this because it is a reminder of the versatility of their class which is often lost in raiding.

That said, I'd like to see the math / WWS reports with this weapon.

#12 Zurgat

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 02:15 PM

The DPS spreadsheet now has prot support, so I did some quick inputting of my dps gear and my talents. My Al'ar fist weapons are about 1000 dps - this does assume windfury - and Nightfall is about 450 dps. It's highly unlikely to be worth the trade off in a 25-man if you've got decent prot dps gear.


If the weapon difference ends up that big, then it might be questionable to use it.
I would love to see some more research on the effect though, especially the proc chance and uptime of the debuff.

Lets say we have a theoretical raid with 15 dps, 7 healers, 2 prot tanks, 1 bear druid.

2 rogues, 1 enhancement shaman, 1 fury warrior, 1 MS warrior. The enhancement shaman will see a slight increase in dps.
10 others, among which perhaps 2 hunters.
Then there should be about 3 mages, 3 locks, 2 shadow priests, each doing a rough estimate of 1750 DPS or 14000 total.
On a 100% uptime that would be 0.15*14000 = 2100 DPS (not including the healers or enhancement shaman).

So at a very rough guesstimate, for the proc to be worth it, it'd need to have around or above 25% uptime.
That is, if the warrior is in dps gear.

On some fights they might be in prot gear to offtank some targets, but when those are dead they might need to switch to dps mode. In which case switching to a different weapon could be very well worth it as their personal dps will be very low to start with.
Hydross for example requires 2 tanks to use resistance gear.
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#13 Justician

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 02:27 PM

Is this post about retro weapons, or about Nightfall in particular? Asking because of all weapons I heard being useful even though they are long outgrown, The Ravager seems to be the most powerful. I have heard claims of major shifts on damage meters by using this weapon. Is this anywhere near plausible, you'd think?

#14 vorda

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 02:43 PM

Is this post about retro weapons, or about Nightfall in particular? Asking because of all weapons I heard being useful even though they are long outgrown, The Ravager seems to be the most powerful. I have heard claims of major shifts on damage meters by using this weapon. Is this anywhere near plausible, you'd think?


I seem to remember reading in the enchance shaman topic that some people used it with decent results on AoE trash pulls. Besides that and maybe morogrim I dont see much use for it.

edit: I also vaguely remember that those -armor procs werent usable with sunder armor?
edit2: either that or they had a sunder armor agro component :)

#15 Farstrider

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 02:55 PM

If you have WWS parses that show decent damage increases from using these out of date weapons - sorry but the concept of using seems totally laughable to me - then post them - otherwise it's just anecdotal evidence which doesn't really help anyone very much.
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#16 mmartinx

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:07 PM

We have an enhancement shaman that breaks out when he's threat capped.

#17 Shadewalk

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:19 PM

My memory of ravager is that it was used to achie ~5.5k dps in some vid to clear SM cathedral in 1 pull by a level 38 warrior, was lvl 60s pulling an healing though. Fun to watch and did make me think, surely this has a use in raid enviroments, but sadly now the best I can think of is the phase 3 neth zerg, but really any place its ok-ish involves very weak mobs to AoE anyway, but still reasonable dps output on cloth, so the best thing a prot warrior can do is slow and taunt things off still.

Another weapon I've seen is the , at 500 haste rating for 30 seconds I wonder if it would be worth using as a near 0 (well 29) 2H dps weapon, but with the on use haste bonus could still out dps a top end current epic until its over then swap in the usual weapons, this thought could apply to any arms warrior potentially. The major problem though is that the use has just 3 charges, so you would have farm the crowd pummeler boss in gnomeregan quite a lot to actually have enough to do anything, ultimately making this nothing more than a gimic even if the dps it does is good.


I also remeber there being 1% chance for an extra hit trinkets in game, though never in the slightest bit really looked at them and know whats happened to them since, but those were very popular at 60 with rogues and warriors.

#18 Sitezem

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:39 PM

I also remeber there being 1% chance for an extra hit trinkets in game, though never in the slightest bit really looked at them and know whats happened to them since, but those were very popular at 60 with rogues and warriors.



Hand of Jutice
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Still ok even in 70 lvl.

#19 Wodahs

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:46 PM

Hand of Jutice
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Still ok even in 70 lvl.


Its not ok at 70, its proc rate scales on level and it barely procs at lvl 70. Its a waste of a trinket slot.

#20 Edghar

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:56 PM

Its not ok at 70, its proc rate scales on level and it barely procs at lvl 70. Its a waste of a trinket slot.


It scaled down to 1.33% instead of the old 2%. Depends on your definition of OK.




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