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Retro weapons - Nightfall


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#21 Zurgat

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 04:07 PM

It scaled down to 1.33% instead of the old 2%. Depends on your definition of OK.


Yes but your weapon also does about 30% more damage per attack.
Still, there's better trinkets out there obviously.
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#22 Malan

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 04:35 PM

We have an enhancement shaman that breaks out when he's threat capped.


A much better solution would be an investigation into *why* he's threat capped. Changes in our talent tree made threat almost a non-issue recently.

#23 Lookit

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 05:39 PM

Another weapon I've seen is the , at 500 haste rating for 30 seconds I wonder if it would be worth using as a near 0 (well 29) 2H dps weapon, but with the on use haste bonus could still out dps a top end current epic until its over then swap in the usual weapons, this thought could apply to any arms warrior potentially. The major problem though is that the use has just 3 charges, so you would have farm the crowd pummeler boss in gnomeregan quite a lot to actually have enough to do anything, ultimately making this nothing more than a gimic even if the dps it does is good.


I recently got the on a warrior alt, and my first thought was "Could you activate the haste bonus and then immediately switch to another weapon?" 500 haste rating for 30 seconds would be incredible even at 70. Additionally, it drops off a boss that is very near to the rear entrance of Gnomer, so farming it would be extremely easy.

#24 ObservingLife

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 05:48 PM

Heresay from other sites says that the haste buff disappears when you switch weapons. This is ~2.1, but I see no reason why Blizzard would've changed it.

Still, the time investment to farm it is pretty minimal, if people wanted hard evidence.

#25 Natural

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 06:11 PM

First I'd like to point out that this will kill the dps of whoever uses it. That said, we're talking about the OT (prot warrior?) so that point isn't quite as valid.


1556 Prot warrior DPS: Wow Web Stats

The only situation I think can be considered is when a prot warrior needs to DPS with tanking gear on (Illidan, RoS P3 as backup tank, etc).

#26 Solomir

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 07:28 PM

Not every guild has tanks with full fury gearsets, or extra enhancement shamans to give to their off-tanks in single tank fights. Your WWS is an exception, not the rule.

It's similar to having bears in kitty form. With a full gear swap and the knowledge of proper dps rotations, it's possible to get a spot on the meters. With half-tanking gear, half-dps gear, a feral isn't going to do much better than a prot warrior in a similar getup. At the very least, the druid can still provide FF, LotP, and a rebirth, as well as the option to shift out to Tranquility in a pinch. A prot warrior at most can provide BS to the melee if they're lacking a fury/arms warrior. By using weapons like Nightfall, they can still provide some measure of raid utility.

That being said, there's probably some inflection point for the number of casters in the raid required before using a Nightfall is a worthy investment. Also, how does having additional tanks swinging them increase the debuff uptime.

#27 Farstrider

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 10:58 PM

It's similar to having bears in kitty form. With a full gear swap and the knowledge of proper dps rotations, it's possible to get a spot on the meters. With half-tanking gear, half-dps gear, a feral isn't going to do much better than a prot warrior in a similar getup.


That is just plain silly. This thread is bad enough without you coming in here and saying crazy things. It is perfectly possible for a feral druid to output over 1k dps in gear that would be perfectly fine for tanking doomguards at Azgalor, off tanking Supremus, or whatever.
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#28 Rezarel

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 01:27 AM

I recently got the on a warrior alt, and my first thought was "Could you activate the haste bonus and then immediately switch to another weapon?" 500 haste rating for 30 seconds would be incredible even at 70. Additionally, it drops off a boss that is very near to the rear entrance of Gnomer, so farming it would be extremely easy.


Just tested, the buff is canceled when you switch weapons.

#29 Flavahbeast

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 03:24 AM

I can't remember any of the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the contribution from nightfal narrowly failed to make up for my lost DW DPS even in Naxx, even with 10+ casters in the group. Now granted, DW fury was really really good in naxx, but I just can't see it being nearly as good as it was then

#30 xiaoxin21

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 03:32 AM

Nightfall is good for RoS p1 when resto shamans can swing it with windfury. They cant really do much dps then anyway during the time and it is a boost to all the rest of the nuking classes

#31 Spatula

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 04:10 AM

Educated Guess:
1. 38 / 41 dps isn't like ... wow...
2. The stacking debuff could be a self-buff like the one from and only benefitting yourself.

The proc is a debuff, not a self-buff, that does not overwrite sunder. I don't have any experience with , but from the similar wording I'm guessing it's also a debuff. Whether it stacks with or not, I have no idea.

#32 Lopaka

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 04:53 AM

We have a Prot Pally that busts out on bosses like Gorefiend when he doesn't have to OT. So he auto attacks and helps me on cleanse duty. Seems like a good enough buff to make up for the marginal loss in already low Prot Pally dps.

#33 Oggie

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:11 AM

The proc is a debuff, not a self-buff, that does not overwrite sunder. I don't have any experience with , but from the similar wording I'm guessing it's also a debuff. Whether it stacks with or not, I have no idea.


Sad self-admission: I used to use Rivenspike on my resto shaman way back when on C'thun, because it did stack with Sunder. This was back when I was a resto shaman.

I cannot imagine it being useful today, even if they somehow missed it stacking with sunder. Horrible proc rate, horrible uptime, and not much of cases where you can use it and not cause more problems than good (parries, non healing, no regen MH, I could go on).

It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.


#34 Xav

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:18 AM

Here's a post about this topic (Nightfall) I wrote on my guild's forums. I use one (Illidan P2 when I'm not tanking) and used to use one as an OT when I was in tank gear for something in the fight.

Tested Nightfall today, was curious.

4.2 PPM, put my character on auto attack on a servant, then did other stuff. This is the results when I came back, as well as a dead character.

Posted Image

I used a Gorefiend WWS that totaled about 9000 caster DPS for the calculations.

The Spell Vulnerability debuff lasts 5 seconds. 15% of 9000 is 1350 DPS, so it's 1350 more damage each second for 5 seconds, or 6750 damage per proc. At 4.2 procs/minute, that's 28350 damage/minute, or 472 dps.

In full dps gear + Nightfall, spamming hamstring/overpower/whirlwind, I was doing 350 dps. The proc adds 470ish so I was adding 820 dps effectively.

In full dps gear + normal weapons, I'll do far more than that, 1000+ without a totem.

So on a fight like Gorefiend or Archimonde where you aren't sitting the tanks to just streamline things, full dps gear is still better. But anything else where there's extra tanks once the mobs die or whatnot (Illidan, etc), Nightfall will be a nice boost, and I decided to quantify it.

#35 Touf

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:19 AM

I can't remember any of the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the contribution from nightfal narrowly failed to make up for my lost DW DPS even in Naxx, even with 10+ casters in the group. Now granted, DW fury was really really good in naxx, but I just can't see it being nearly as good as it was then


Yes, but is it better when you're in full FR gear?

#36 Xav

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 05:39 AM

A purebread dps class/spec will always be more useful doing that, rather than using nightfall. Nightfall is just a good weapon to use when you're not a dps spec, and not in dps gear, and not in a dps group. You'll add more raidwide dps using it than any other alternative option. (Unless you're raiding with close to 0 casters, then auto attacking with no weapons equipped would probably be better).

#37 Touf

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 06:32 AM

A purebread dps class/spec will always be more useful doing that, rather than using nightfall. Nightfall is just a good weapon to use when you're not a dps spec, and not in dps gear, and not in a dps group. You'll add more raidwide dps using it than any other alternative option. (Unless you're raiding with close to 0 casters, then auto attacking with no weapons equipped would probably be better).


Not in dps gear is enough. I have 5% hit, 12% crit, -4% dodge, 900 AP in FR gear, somehow I don't think my white damage would account for much.

#38 Roywyn

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 10:54 AM

Tested Nightfall today, was curious.

4.2 PPM, put my character on auto attack on a servant, then did other stuff. This is the results when I came back, as well as a dead character.

I used a Gorefiend WWS that totaled about 9000 caster DPS for the calculations.

The Spell Vulnerability debuff lasts 5 seconds. 15% of 9000 is 1350 DPS, so it's 1350 more damage each second for 5 seconds, or 6750 damage per proc. At 4.2 procs/minute, that's 28350 damage/minute, or 472 dps.

In full dps gear + Nightfall, spamming hamstring/overpower/whirlwind, I was doing 350 dps. The proc adds 470ish so I was adding 820 dps effectively.


If procwatch still works like it used to do, it counts the "X is afflicted by Spell Vulnerability." as well as "Spell Vulnerability fades from X." messages, so your actual proc rate is half the amount listed.

Also, back then, people found out that Nightfall could only proc from regular swings. Additional instant attacks (Hamstring/Whirlwind spam) would not proc Nightfall.
Thought it should be mentioned while we're at it, and I haven't heard that it was changed.

#39 Sou

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 11:51 AM

Thanks a lot for the information Xav. I've been wondering about this for ages but never had a chance to test it.

#40 terjekv

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 12:07 PM

1. My argument of Rivenspike not being *that* bad is that you could DW it with a 90+ dps weapon, whereas with nightfall you're stuck holding a 2H with 65 dps. This point goes away if you use both axes i listed, but then you're massively debuffing the target. Also I forgot to mention , exact same effect as rivenspike (won't stack), but is OH if that makes your dps feel better.

2. I'm relatively certain it's a debuff, but someone would have to test.


FWIW, I used at 60. On my rogue, with S'n'D up, it was permanently up with a full stack on bosses. It was downright silly, I think I still have it in the bank somewhere. :-)




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