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Retro weapons - Nightfall


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#41 Kombinat

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 01:49 PM

I spent a lot of time farming SM arm for a ravager a couple of months back. Idea being to put rockbiter on it, pull an entire instance, twirl in place, then spend a few minutes looting. More specifically, to farm SFK for the twink drops there.

Not exactly efficient, farming armory so I can go farm a lower level instance. I came to my senses recently, and just farmed ores and honour, resulting in a S1 axe and a drakefist hammer. I'd still like a ravager, just to be able to aoe mobs, but some things are just not meant to be.

#42 Sinborn

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 02:26 PM

We have a Prot Pally that busts out on bosses like Gorefiend when he doesn't have to OT. So he auto attacks and helps me on cleanse duty. Seems like a good enough buff to make up for the marginal loss in already low Prot Pally dps.


Our prot pally MTs Gorefiend. Teron is a demon, so our protadin makes sick threat.

Back on the Nightfall topic, our warrior MT claims he can get 25% or better uptime with it, by spamming hamstring. I'm not complaining, I seen a couple 6.3k frostbolts on Shade of Akama, and a destro lock in our raid popped off a 10.5k shadowbolt.

#43 mmartinx

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Posted 21 December 2007 - 02:38 PM

A much better solution would be an investigation into *why* he's threat capped. Changes in our talent tree made threat almost a non-issue recently.


Unfortunately all tanks aren't created equally. There are times when the tank doesn't have windfury, hunters only misdirect on the pull, etc.

#44 Xav

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 01:18 AM

If procwatch still works like it used to do, it counts the "X is afflicted by Spell Vulnerability." as well as "Spell Vulnerability fades from X." messages, so your actual proc rate is half the amount listed.

Also, back then, people found out that Nightfall could only proc from regular swings. Additional instant attacks (Hamstring/Whirlwind spam) would not proc Nightfall.
Thought it should be mentioned while we're at it, and I haven't heard that it was changed.


It doesn't count Spell Vulnerability twice, I observed this a lot. It was double counting other procs though, as I ran a similar test with Crusader. Nightfall does proc off of instant attacks, and the PPM goes up when that happens because you're raising the chance of getting the max PPM possible. In reality your PPM wont be drastically higher than what the picture shows because you're likely refreshing Thunderclap, *not* getting much rage to even spamstring, and possibly refreshing Demo shout / Command / Battle as well, as a warrior anyway.

#45 Phantasie

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 02:26 AM

Our prot pally MTs Gorefiend. Teron is a demon, so our protadin makes sick threat.

Back on the Nightfall topic, our warrior MT claims he can get 25% or better uptime with it, by spamming hamstring. I'm not complaining, I seen a couple 6.3k frostbolts on Shade of Akama, and a destro lock in our raid popped off a 10.5k shadowbolt.


the shade of akama has a stacking increase damage debuff that akama puts on shade anyways.

#46 Ragnor

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 08:12 AM

I've had a nightfall since MC days, the highlight of it's usefulness was loatheb in naxx.

If you're considering it's use on TBC content you need to remember the duration of the debuff is low, the debuff priority is really really low.
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#47 Savos

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Posted 22 December 2007 - 10:31 PM

1556 Prot warrior DPS: Wow Web Stats

The only situation I think can be considered is when a prot warrior needs to DPS with tanking gear on (Illidan, RoS P3 as backup tank, etc).


That's a bit of a gimmick though. Haste pots, recklessness, and potentially strength food and an assault flask, and yet another prot warrior running debuffs. Still you beat out the Mortal Strike warrior by a bit.

What I find impressive is the other protection warrior (why bring 3?) running 970 DPS while doing debuffs. That's pretty good.

Best I can do is about 700-800 depending on group make up with my pretty pathetic DPS gear. Few blues and almost no enchants and my gear is about 1/3 T4ish 1/3 T5ish 1/3 other :(

What gear and enchant level are you running with this? All T5 or better? T6?

#48 Xav

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Posted 23 December 2007 - 02:49 AM

It's basically flawless T6-level fury gear. The last time I looked at Natural's armory I don't think there was a single slot that could be upgraded DPS-wise, exception of having Warglaives. Devastate really is quite amazing when you're running around with a monstrous mainhand and over 3000 AP.

#49 panny

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 07:33 AM

Is this post about retro weapons, or about Nightfall in particular? Asking because of all weapons I heard being useful even though they are long outgrown, The Ravager seems to be the most powerful. I have heard claims of major shifts on damage meters by using this weapon. Is this anywhere near plausible, you'd think?


It's not. The proc rate is fairly low, and you have to time all your other abilites (Stormstrike, Shocks, Totems, Trinkets, etc) carefully to ensure you don't interrupt the whirlwind effect when it does proc. I use it for a bit of fun on the odd AoE pull with Rockbiter, and get three AoE "ticks" of 700-800 (with the melee crit rate) which doesn't seem to be affected by the AoE cap per proc, but don't quote me on that.

For comparison, Fire Nova totem is about the same damage, but with a lower crit rate (and a 150% crit modifier instead of 200%). You won't AoE down SM with a Ravager, even with a healer. In general, Shaman would get more overall damage single target dpsing things down while dropping totems. Spinning around and yelling "Blades of Light" is fun though!

#50 Kavel

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 03:54 PM

Well, just got mine crafted up. I'm just going to toe the line with Xav's advice and whip it out in fights where I'm stuck in tank gear but eventually get freed up.

#51 Fenks

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 04:28 PM

Our MT uses a nightfall in certain situation, and all maths aside, I've always found it to be a pretty noticable gain (but perhaps it only feels that way because the debuff pushes my SB crits just in the 10k-range :D). He's able to keep it up a reasonable amount of the time aswell, and since we raid with around 8-10 casters counting shadowpriests normally, I think it's worth the effort.

So it's purely anecdotically but give it a shot if you're considering it I'd say.

#52 Kegsta

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 05:29 PM

I have the -600 AC weapons from LBRS on my Shaman when I was testing out enhancement a while back, But this was in the days of the 5 affliction lock SSC, so its hard to tell. I'm pretty sure the debuff time is reduced significantly on level 73 mobs,
The rivenspike was near worthless probably 1 PPM and never stacks up. The has a far bigger uptime. I haven't tried The Annihilator yet, because it's main hand only. But the dps prot warrior can put out these days, I hardly think its worth it.

The same can be said for Nightfall, I remember it being questionably worth it in the days of 40 man raids, and all your really going to do with it is transfur a tiny bit of damage from a prot warrior, to the wartlocks who are probably having enough trouble with threat as it is.

It's possible it could be used for a resto shaman/paly on a fight that requires little healing, but its probably just going to be a wasted bag spot 99% of the time.

#53 Vhex

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 06:09 PM

I've considered getting one to bust out (Holy Paladin) on fights where I keep judgments up. For progression content it's hard to find a way to make it worth it. For farm content though? Who needs another 600 +heal on 4/5 5/9 of the fights where I'm half asleep and starting to drink heavily anyways.

#54 Yenadar

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 06:15 PM

Dropping my 2c in the bucket.

I always carry this with me now, as I am in the MH/BT runs 100% every night, primarily as a tank. I am only needed for healing for Naj'entus and Archi, and I tank or offtank most of the rest of the encounters. With on it and seal of the crusader up, I have it swinging at 2.47 speed, which boosts up-time quite a bit. Also, for offtanking where I am not taking a hateful/hurtful strike, I am swinging this to assist in making sure I keep up vengeance. In addition, our ret pally has been speccing to holy recently, so it is a 100% judgement uptime for light or wisdom, as needed.

I swing :
- Rage Winterchill
- Kaz'rogal (high SR, the rest +haste gear)
- Supremus during kite phase, generally 2-3 procs during the phase, and I can keep 5-stack Vengeance up on him due to the solid proc rate of Seal of Vengeance from the slow swing speed
- Teron Gorefiend (+200 haste set, entire fight, I am dedicated decurser, one does not interfere with the other)
- RoS Phase 1 after I take the first full fixate pass, and Phase 2 (I tank phase 3)
- Blooboil to get 5-stack Vengeance on him fast, and then during every Fel Enrage
- Illidian Phase 1, 3 and 5. (I am one of the Flame tanks)
- plus any trash pulls in which I don't pick up something, or my target is down.

We generally run around 9,200 caster DPS on average, so it averages around +900 to the raid DPS rate while I am swinging it. Since I am in prot gear most of the time anyway (1 of 3 tanks), the raid is not sacrificing a DPS slot to get the debuff up, and I am not completely useless when I am not tanking or healing. On Illidian, I have counted as high as 30 procs over the course of the whole fight, and the additional 60,000 to 70,000 damage or so is quite a bit better than I would be contributing otherwise, considering I am in FR gear the whole fight.

Our last 3 WWS parses were not capturing most of the procs, so we are working to capture it better.

The math I have seen is a 12% proc rate based on a 2 PPM rate. That, by itself, yields a 16.6% up-time on the debuff, (2 x 5 seconds , 10 seconds / 60 seconds) or a average 2.5% increase in caster damage per minute. Seal of Crusader brings the average PPM to 2.9, which increases the up-time to 24.2%, or +3.6% caster damage per minute. I actually get an increase in personal DPS as well, although still completely minor.

I completely agree, a full-time DPS in level 70 raid gear is by far better than making one of them swing Nightfall. So while I might be an odd case out, if you aren't sacrifcing a DPS slot to be swinging it, why wouldn't you do it?

#55 Orestus

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 07:29 PM

I wonder if when we're all getting ready for the 5th Expansion, "WoW: Anger of the Murloc Emperor: The Fiery Holy War", we'll still be talking about whether Nightfall is worth getting or not.

In summation though, I think the consensus is that its certainly would be a nice thing to have for any Prot Warrior/Prot & Holy Pally/Resto Shaman. If these classes want to carry around a golf bag worth of weapons (hopefully with a clockwork caddy for the engineers) for specific situations, you will be able to find times and situations where it is useful. Any fight where you're stuck in totally gimped resist gear for portions of it (Illidan, Hydross, some others) would lend itself to its use. If you're a smart player and think critically about what you'll be doing during an encounter, you'll find some time to put it to good use.

That being said, its benefit seems to be fairly marginal even in a best case scenario.

#56 SadPanda

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 09:04 PM

We generally run around 9,200 caster DPS on average, so it averages around +900 to the raid DPS rate while I am swinging it. Since I am in prot gear most of the time anyway (1 of 3 tanks), the raid is not sacrificing a DPS slot to get the debuff up, and I am not completely useless when I am not tanking or healing. On Illidian, I have counted as high as 30 procs over the course of the whole fight, and the additional 60,000 to 70,000 damage or so is quite a bit better than I would be contributing otherwise, considering I am in FR gear the whole fight.

Our last 3 WWS parses were not capturing most of the procs, so we are working to capture it better.

The math I have seen is a 12% proc rate based on a 2 PPM rate. That, by itself, yields a 16.6% up-time on the debuff, (2 x 5 seconds , 10 seconds / 60 seconds) or a average 2.5% increase in caster damage per minute. Seal of Crusader brings the average PPM to 2.9, which increases the up-time to 24.2%, or +3.6% caster damage per minute. I actually get an increase in personal DPS as well, although still completely minor.



+900 DPS? Unless I fail at math, with a 16.6% uptime and 9,200 caster dps, you'll see ~230 raid dps increase which is far, far from 900. Even with a 24% uptime, which is rare enough, thats just a ~330 dps. Its a situational weapon at best, especially if you are a paladin stuck in tank gear on a fight.

#57 Crawk

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 09:54 PM

+900 DPS? Unless I fail at math, with a 16.6% uptime and 9,200 caster dps, you'll see ~230 raid dps increase which is far, far from 900. Even with a 24% uptime, which is rare enough, thats just a ~330 dps. Its a situational weapon at best, especially if you are a paladin stuck in tank gear on a fight.


No - you're right, the above poster was way off at 900 DPS.

If you're doing 9200 caster RDPS per minute, and you managed to get 25% perfect uptime, you're going to do
(9200*45secs + 9200*1.15dmg*15secs) versus (9200*60secs), or 552,000 versus 572,700 (net gain 20,700 per minute, or about 345 dps).

So the difference comes down to how much DPS it would cost you personally to use Nightfall, and if you could pull off 345 extra DPS in your gear. Xav answered this pretty conclusively on page 2 of the thread: *maybe* if you absolutely have to be in some gear that is absolutely terrible for damage output. Certainly not good enough for anyone to run out and craft, we're talking about a pretty small number of fights that it would be useful in.

What would be useful to the thread (after a page of anecdotal "trust me I have one its awesome") would be a comparison of what kind of DPS someone in terrible damage gear (Illidan FR gear, Tanking gear) could put out, and how much personal DPS you lose out of switching to a gimp weapon.

#58 Darkrenown

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 07:54 AM

How about Ironfoe for DW fury dps? Never used it myself, but the wowhead comments say it clones the last attack twice when it procs rather than just giving 2 autoattacks and can lead to nice results when a BT crit is cloned.

#59 Ja7us

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 09:41 AM

How about Ironfoe for DW fury dps? Never used it myself, but the wowhead comments say it clones the last attack twice when it procs rather than just giving 2 autoattacks and can lead to nice results when a BT crit is cloned.


Even if true, there's no way a mainhand of that speed and DPS would ever be a DPS increase, and I'm highly suspicious that it is.

#60 Zurgat

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 09:44 AM

Dropping my 2c in the bucket.

I always carry this with me now, as I am in the MH/BT runs 100% every night, primarily as a tank. I am only needed for healing for Naj'entus and Archi, and I tank or offtank most of the rest of the encounters. With on it and seal of the crusader up, I have it swinging at 2.47 speed, which boosts up-time quite a bit.


Just out of curiosity, but i recall a mention in the rogue dps thread, that haste does not actually affect procs.
Nightfall would be one of those, but it'd need some research.


Also, Death frost : Enchant Weapon - Deathfrost - Spells - WOWDB
I wonder if this will work on bosses and if it does whether it'll stack (unlikely) with thunderclap.
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